49 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Are you in favor of eliminating inheritances?

Of course not. Its a foolish idea

property roghts are fundamental to this nations founding principles

9 hours ago, Allhaildawk said:

You’re just wrong man.  I posted facts. They’re not "wrong” because you don’t like them.  Purposefully ignorant?  By quoting the exact times and not manipulating quotes as you did?   

The personal attacks are still not helping.  You can still be better than that.  The actions you suggested this morning (batoning a handcuffed suspect) would amount to a constitutional violation and excessive use of force. Full stop. Read the law, read the policy, read the precedent. They’re all against you. 
 

im serious, this isn’t opinion.  Read continuum of force training, read de-escalation policies, read about carotid holds. These are not grey areas, your self-righteousness aside. 
 

He should have released the hold?  Floyd was compliant minutes earlier and then again in the backseat of the car. The part you’re refusing to acknowledge is that he was COMPLIANT AND IN THE BACK SEAT.  He never should have been pulled out, he never should have been in the hold in the first place. The hold was applied to a compliant suspect. It doesn’t matter what happened ten minutes earlier. Resistance becomes irrelevant when it stops. Whether it’s one or ten minutes before. 
 

we’re talking past each other and I’m done with you. The truth is out there if you cared to see it. You think he should have been thrown into a car?  He was in a car. You think he resisted arrest?  Not by any recognized definition. It’s simply not the law or the policy. That truth is there when you decide to open your eyes. Your suggestions this morning were, and remain, wrong. Both factually and legally. 

I didn't read any of this because I already knows it's stupid. 

10 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

The goal is to have have results commensurate with effort and ability. You offer a juvenile false dichotomy
 

 

 

 

So basically you are saying poor people are poor because they lack effort or ability or both and the wealthy, wealthy because they put forth more effort and have more ability.

 

8 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Of course not. Its a foolish idea

property roghts are fundamental to this nations founding principles

Which were founded on genocide. Is that also a founding principle?

11 hours ago, HazletonEagle said:

Apparently you dont watch the videos you post as evidence that you think supports you.

3:10 "floyd tells the officers he is claustrophobic, refusing to enter the police car. During the struggle..." the quote continues. In your video here a police car is obscuring the view. But this "struggle" is depicted in the video I watched from another unobscured angle.

3:31 "Nine minutes in to the arrest a 3rd police car arrives on the scene.... Chauvin becomes involved in the struggle to get Floyd in to the car.

3:52 is a clip from the video I watched. "Security footage from cup foods shows Kunig(?) struggling with Floyd in the back seat."

At 5:51 you can hear the officer say something to him about resisting arrest.

At 6:41 the narrator reads "Minneapolis police policy states an officer can only do this (knee on neck)if someone is actively resisting." Which, Floyd clearly did. For about 10 minutes or more...

 

 

maybe give it up now? You proved yourself wrong. Yes there is video of the struggle. Yes, Floyd was resisting for a prolonged period of time. 

I suppose Chauvin lost his cool and pulled him out of the vehicle when he had enough of the struggle. Inexcusable to kill him. He probably deserved a minor clubbing. However if he would have just sat in the car he wouldnt be dead, businesses would have been saved. Other officers and protesters lives would have been saved... How many examples of black guys getting killed by police does he need before he was going to learn to just cooperate so he can stay alive?

yeah thats ridiculous. 

 

Why was he cuffed and put in police car for being accused without evidence of using a counterfeit bill ?

Is it police policy to detain suspects whom pose no threat to officers or others for  non violent cimes?

If Floyd were a skinny white guy wearing a suit do you honestly think hed been cuffed and then put in the squad car?

If so why if once cuffed and in the car was he taken out of the car and put on the ground. Seems counterintuitive to take a contained suspect out of a contained situation to kneel on his neck no???

30 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Which were founded on genocide. Is that also a founding principle?

No, a founding principle of the United States was not genocide.

It is honestly amazing to me that there are people in the world that think this way.

9 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Of course not. Its a foolish idea

property roghts are fundamental to this nations founding principles

You state that for a proper society, "The goal is to have have results commensurate with effort and ability."

But I guess it is alright if some individuals have a head start.

1 hour ago, HazletonEagle said:

I didn't read any of this because I already knows it's stupid. 

You can do better than this.  

5 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You can do better than this.  

They are both locked in, their brains have solidified their "rightness"- perhaps the most dangerous by product of believing ones thoughts to be impeccably true and real.

14 minutes ago, TEW said:

No, a founding principle of the United States was not genocide.

It is honestly amazing to me that there are people in the world that think this way.

didnt say i thought that way. The poster said property rights were a founding principle of the founding fathers.

 

Its nice to have a romanticized view of history from a white mans perspective that this country we live in was ordained by god for the use of white man and we are entitled to its ownership  use and exploitation through manifest destiny.In reality, not make believe land our property " rights" are the product and result of mass genocide. How did we maintain that  property white man deemed ordained by god to control? Slavery😒

 

 

17 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

You state that for a proper society, "The goal is to have have results commensurate with effort and ability."

But I guess it is alright if some individuals have a head start.

Certainly. Life isn't fair and part of the benefit of success and passing that success onto your children since it is your property.

21 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Why was he cuffed and put in police car for being accused without evidence of using a counterfeit bill ?

Is it police policy to detain suspects whom pose no threat to officers or others for  non violent cimes?

If Floyd were a skinny white guy wearing a suit do you honestly think hed been cuffed and then put in the squad car?

If so why if once cuffed and in the car was he taken out of the car and put on the ground. Seems counterintuitive to take a contained suspect out of a contained situation to kneel on his neck no???

Youd have to know what was said in the minute and a half where he was refusing to get out of his vehicle. Maybe that would provide  your answers. 

6 minutes ago, Utebird said:

didnt say i thought that way. The poster said property rights were a founding principle of the founding fathers.

 

Its nice to have a romanticized view of history from a white mans perspective that this country we live in was ordained by god for the use of white man and we are entitled to its ownership  use and exploitation through manifest destiny.In reality, not make believe land our property " rights" are the product and result of mass genocide. How did we maintain that  property white man deemed ordained by god to control? Slavery😒

 

 

2 minutes ago, Utebird said:

didnt say i thought that way. The poster said property rights were a founding principle of the founding fathers.

 

Its nice to have a romanticized view of history from a white mans perspective that this country we live in was ordained by god for the use of white man and we are entitled to its ownership  use and exploitation through manifest destiny.In reality, not make believe land our property " rights" are the product and result of mass genocide. How did we maintain that property property white man deemed ordained by god to control? Slavery😒

 

 

Do you think there is a single prosperous country on this Earth that has not been shaped by atrocities ~300-500 years ago?  Or is that a uniquely American sin, as everyone seems to be suggesting lately...

Two countries often proposed for sainthood, Canada and Switzerland, have some particularly grisly history.  

 

20 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

You can do better than this.  

And I was for the previous 3 days of discussion. The poster I was responding to brought it down about 10000 levels of stupid.

11 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Do you think there is a single prosperous country on this Earth that has not been shaped by atrocities ~300-500 years ago?  Or is that a uniquely American sin, as everyone seems to be suggesting lately...

Two countries often proposed for sainthood, Canada and Switzerland, have some particularly grisly history.  

 

As a canadian i can confirm a grisly history on our part.( this part is sincere)

Secertly we have been planning world domination for generations! The master plan is almost ready and the world we soon feel the full effect of the Hoser plan! ( this part isnt... way to wile e coyote lull them into that false sense of security)

 

14 hours ago, MediterraneanDiet said:

So when it comes to racism, inequality, police brutality,  what are both sides of the racism and inequality equation?

Racism -- very hard to quantify. But we do have actual laws on the books that prevent whites from bidding on some government contracts, we do have academic and corporate policies that impose higher standards for whites than blacks. For all of the talk of institutional racism, there isn't a major university or corporation in America that does not actively prioritize blacks over more meritorious whites and there isn't a single law on the books that explicitly privileges whites over blacks as they do for blacks over whites.

Inequality -- irrelevant.  We are not equal. That said, there are plenty of poor white people.  Being white doesn't mean you are guaranteed a good life. 

Police brutality -- whites are more likely to be killed by police than blacks, both in sheer numbers and adjusted for crime and arrests.

58 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Why was he cuffed and put in police car for being accused without evidence of using a counterfeit bill ?

Is it police policy to detain suspects whom pose no threat to officers or others for  non violent cimes?

If Floyd were a skinny white guy wearing a suit do you honestly think hed been cuffed and then put in the squad car?

If so why if once cuffed and in the car was he taken out of the car and put on the ground. Seems counterintuitive to take a contained suspect out of a contained situation to kneel on his neck no???

Typically I will want to see what happened before the "camera was turned on” in many of these "police brutality” cases to see if the police were in any way justified (or if the suspect had a reason to resist)  in using force.  
 

I also watch Live PD on a regular basis to see what happens on a day-to-day basis and what a lot of police and "suspects” go through when stopped by police, etc.   In most cases, especially on Live PD, the police tend to do a good job diffusing tense situations and even when someone is mildly resisting (I don’t consider turning around and questioning why you are being detained as "resisting” although many police departments apparently do) But all in all, I think the police departments on that show do a decent job of preventing further escalation, in most cases. 

That was not the case with George Floyd.  Absolutely nothing shown on video justifies the police officers’ handling of the situation or what happened in the events leading up to his death. NOTHING shown on video justifies kneeling on that man’s neck for over 8 minutes while he was handcuffed face first,  on the ground, screaming, "I can’t breathe!”  and anyone trying to justify that now is either trolling, ignorant or racist... or maybe a combination of the three. 
 

 

35 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Which were founded on genocide. Is that also a founding principle?

Property rights were founded on genocide?  Yes, as a matter of fact that is a founding principle.  The problem with the understanding of our history is we typically don’t understand the discussions and proposals, just the ultimate results.  To achieve southern support for replacing the Articles of Confederation with a stronger federal government, in addition to the 3/5ths clause, the Federalists actively recruited Madison.  Now, Madison, being from Virginia, lived in a colony and then state, whose House of Burgess had early on passed a bill of rights.  He insisted the Constitution include one as well.  As soon as Congress sat, He proposed a little over 22 amendments, which incidentally he thought should be incorporated into the Constitution body.  Included in the proposal was a modified preamble. On June 8, 1789, Madison told Congress the Preamble needed a "pre-Preamble.”

"First. That there be prefixed to the Constitution a declaration, that all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from, the people. That Government is instituted and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right of acquiring and using property, and generally of pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their Government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution.”

Discussion ensued and ultimately twelve amendments were proposed and ten were quickly ratified becoming known as the Bill of Rights.  An eleventh passed close to 130 years later which argues for the ERA potentially having been ratified with Virginia’s vote earlier this year despite the time limitation put forth by Congress. Lots of Constitutional arguments on that, including whether a state can withdraw its ratification before an amendment reaches those necessary to be adopted. 

The major argument against amending the preamble was a desire to not weaken the strongest focus therein, We the People.  I would argue that if the flag represents anything, it is We the People.

1 hour ago, Utebird said:

So basically you are saying poor people are poor because they lack effort or ability or both and the wealthy, wealthy because they put forth more effort and have more ability.

 

Of course he’s not saying that. All we should be guaranteed is equal treatment before the law.

 

18 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Youd have to know what was said in the minute and a half where he was refusing to get out of his vehicle. Maybe that would provide  your answers. 

What could he have said that would justify his execution?

4 minutes ago, In2football said:

As a canadian i can confirm a grisly history on our part.( this part is sincere)

Secertly we have been planning world domination for generations! The master plan is almost ready and the world we soon feel the full effect of the Hoser plan! ( this part isnt... way to wile e coyote lull them into that false sense of security)

 

😂 

Every country has something in their history they would like to forget...and it’s both fair and necessary that we are often reminded of it.  
 

It doesn’t mean one is obligated to be ashamed of their country.  

3 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Of course he’s not saying that. All we should be guaranteed is equal treatment before the law.

 

What could he have said that would justify his execution?

Nothing. Talking about when he refused to get out of his car and they pulled him out and cuffed him.

21 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Youd have to know what was said in the minute and a half where he was refusing to get out of his vehicle. Maybe that would provide  your answers. 

Hows that have anything to do with floyd being cuffed detained in a police car then pulled out and put on the ground.

From what i understand they managed to get floyd in the squad car with cuffs on then took him out and put him on the ground. Whats the point in that?

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

Property rights were founded on genocide?  Yes, as a matter of fact that is a founding principle.  The problem with the understanding of our history is we typically don’t understand the discussions and proposals, just the ultimate results.  To achieve southern support for replacing the Articles of Confederation with a stronger federal government, in addition to the 3/5ths clause, the Federalists actively recruited Madison.  Now, Madison, being from Virginia, lived in a colony and then state, whose House of Burgess had early on passed a bill of rights.  He insisted the Constitution include one as well.  As soon as Congress sat, He proposed a little over 22 amendments, which incidentally he thought should be incorporated into the Constitution body.  Included in the proposal was a modified preamble. On June 8, 1789, Madison told Congress the Preamble needed a "pre-Preamble.”

"First. That there be prefixed to the Constitution a declaration, that all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from, the people. That Government is instituted and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right of acquiring and using property, and generally of pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their Government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution.”

Discussion ensued and ultimately twelve amendments were proposed and ten were quickly ratified becoming known as the Bill of Rights.  An eleventh passed close to 130 years later which argues for the ERA potentially having been ratified with Virginia’s vote earlier this year despite the time limitation put forth by Congress. Lots of Constitutional arguments on that, including whether a state can withdraw its ratification before an amendment reaches those necessary to be adopted. 

The major argument against amending the preamble was a desire to not weaken the strongest focus therein, We the People.  I would argue that if the flag represents anything, it is We the People.

No, property rights predated the nation and originated from mercantilism, not slavery. They came from British common law, like most of our legal system, and were founded in this nation based on the writings of Locke et al.

23 minutes ago, TEW said:

I agree History is mind boggling.