1 minute ago, Utebird said:

I agree History is mind boggling.

What you're saying isn't history.  It's propaganda.

31 minutes ago, Utebird said:

didnt say i thought that way. The poster said property rights were a founding principle of the founding fathers.

 

Its nice to have a romanticized view of history from a white mans perspective that this country we live in was ordained by god for the use of white man and we are entitled to its ownership  use and exploitation through manifest destiny.In reality, not make believe land our property " rights" are the product and result of mass genocide. How did we maintain that  property white man deemed ordained by god to control? Slavery😒

 

 

WTF...

2 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Hows that have anything to do with floyd being cuffed detained in a police car then pulled out and put on the ground.

From what i understand they managed to get floyd in the squad car with cuffs on then took him out and put him on the ground. Whats the point in that?

First question- probably a lot. And we just dont know what happened there. 

Second question- He struggled with them for like 10 minutes or more. It seems they never were able to get him properly restrained in that car while Floyd actively resisted the entire time. My guess is Chauvin had enough and went to plan B which he obviously went way overboard with. But again, we dont know. 

3 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I agree History is mind boggling.

New Zealand also has an interesting genocidal history.  Limited to a small island, they never had the scale Americans did, but they did the most they could with what they had.  

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

What you're saying isn't history.  It's propaganda.

he really should pick a new country and just go. 

22 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Do you think there is a single prosperous country on this Earth that has not been shaped by atrocities ~300-500 years ago?  Or is that a uniquely American sin, as everyone seems to be suggesting lately...

Two countries often proposed for sainthood, Canada and Switzerland, have some particularly grisly history.  

 

Does it make it right? Can one justify genocide because people, mostly white people have been wiping out indigenous people for thousands of years?

If one can dont justify it behind gods will.

" A great number of atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ"

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"

 

19 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Property rights were founded on genocide?  Yes, as a matter of fact that is a founding principle.  The problem with the understanding of our history is we typically don’t understand the discussions and proposals, just the ultimate results.  To achieve southern support for replacing the Articles of Confederation with a stronger federal government, in addition to the 3/5ths clause, the Federalists actively recruited Madison.  Now, Madison, being from Virginia, lived in a colony and then state, whose House of Burgess had early on passed a bill of rights.  He insisted the Constitution include one as well.  As soon as Congress sat, He proposed a little over 22 amendments, which incidentally he thought should be incorporated into the Constitution body.  Included in the proposal was a modified preamble. On June 8, 1789, Madison told Congress the Preamble needed a "pre-Preamble.”

"First. That there be prefixed to the Constitution a declaration, that all power is originally vested in, and consequently derived from, the people. That Government is instituted and ought to be exercised for the benefit of the people; which consists in the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the right of acquiring and using property, and generally of pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety. That the people have an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform or change their Government, whenever it be found adverse or inadequate to the purposes of its institution.”

Discussion ensued and ultimately twelve amendments were proposed and ten were quickly ratified becoming known as the Bill of Rights.  An eleventh passed close to 130 years later which argues for the ERA potentially having been ratified with Virginia’s vote earlier this year despite the time limitation put forth by Congress. Lots of Constitutional arguments on that, including whether a state can withdraw its ratification before an amendment reaches those necessary to be adopted. 

The major argument against amending the preamble was a desire to not weaken the strongest focus therein, We the People.  I would argue that if the flag represents anything, it is We the People.

Did Madison run this past the native Americans before or after they were wiped out, or just past his fellow wigs?

Just now, Utebird said:

Does it make it right? Can one justify genocide because people, mostly white people have been wiping out indigenous people for thousands of years?

If one can dont justify it behind gods will.

" A great number of atrocities have been committed in the name of Christ"

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"

 

Of course it doesn’t make it right.  

Between 300 and 1,000 years later, depending on the crime and geography, what exactly is supposed to be done about it now besides lots of guilt and textbook reform?

I don’t even know what country my ancestors were in 300 years ago to know exactly which atrocity I should be flogging myself for.  

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

No, property rights predated the nation and originated from mercantilism, not slavery. They came from British common law, like most of our legal system, and were founded in this nation based on the writings of Locke et al.

I would agree but it extends beyond British common law.  A lot of the people in the colonies were not of English origin.  There were quite a lot of Dutch origin and a lot of the early immigrants seeking religious freedom had ventured through Holland before coming here.  The most populous colonies, New York and Pennsylvania had large Dutch and German populations, respectively. I would argue the Dutch merchant class system heavily influenced property rights as well.  Many of the drafters were avid readers and correspondents. The founding principles are a mixture from lots of different sources. 

59 minutes ago, Utebird said:

Why was he cuffed and put in police car for being accused without evidence of using a counterfeit bill ?

Is it police policy to detain suspects whom pose no threat to officers or others for  non violent cimes?

If Floyd were a skinny white guy wearing a suit do you honestly think hed been cuffed and then put in the squad car?

If so why if once cuffed and in the car was he taken out of the car and put on the ground. Seems counterintuitive to take a contained suspect out of a contained situation to kneel on his neck no???

2 of your 4 points are valid which is why we need to get all the facts which should come out in a trial. The cops have in fact been charged

Mr Floyd had a violent record. He pointed a gun at a pregnant woman during a robbery. Because he didn't pull the trigger is he non violent?

Your point about the skinny white guy is not valid. If Mr Floyd had been a huge muscular white guy with a history of violence i'm damn sure he would have been cuffed. I also seem to remember reading he was pulled out of HIS vehicle. I don't know for sure if that is true or not.

 

22 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Of course he’s not saying that. All we should be guaranteed is equal treatment before the law.

 

 

I agree equal treatment under the law, and when i see that others are being unequally treated its within my constitutional right to voice my displeasure with said inequality in the form of kneeling during a flag ceremony, that same flag that represents equal treatment under the law.

Some of you guys arguing about the people with wealth vs those who don't is pointless.

You seem to regard wealth as a finite resource where if one person has great wealth someone cannot. Wealth is created and destroyed every day. Some people by luck of birth are born into wealth. Some people are visionaries who create their own. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk are just a few. Then there are people like Ben Carson who grew up on poverty who worked his a** off, got an education and made a successful career for himself.

While I firmly believe we as a nation have an obligation to help those who can't help themselves I don't feel any obligation to help those who WON'T help themselves.

25 minutes ago, TEW said:

What you're saying isn't history.  It's propaganda.

 yes its propaganda that white americans killed millions of native americans and that after we killed all the natives we used slaves to build and maintain the pillaged lands.

Where did you go to school KKK U?

27 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

😂

Every country has something in their history they would like to forget...and it’s both fair and necessary that we are often reminded of it.  
 

It doesn’t mean one is obligated to be ashamed of their country.  

I agree. I thought it was a very relevant point though. The focus globally right now has zeroed in on the US. You are getting a bad rap and its important we not become smug or judgemental. 

The struggle and challenges in the US are real but our own house could use a little cleaning as well. 

Disparity is a bit less of à factor here but we are taxed heavier and able to spend moreon social programs. The protection the US military provides us allows us to implement programs we often criticize them for not having. 

 

all I can say is prepare yourself for your nee Hoser overlords. Step out of line and we will apologize your brains out!

 

36 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Of course he’s not saying that. All we should be guaranteed is equal treatment before the law.

Yes, but some are more equal than others (with all due apologies to Orwell).

29 minutes ago, Blazehound said:

WTF...

I know right??? Can you believe that they dont teach us in school that our ancestors wiped out whole nations of indigenous people so they could grow corn.

You think thats WTF go read about the trail of tears or Small Pox blankets.😒

43 minutes ago, TEW said:

Racism -- very hard to quantify. But we do have actual laws on the books that prevent whites from bidding on some government contracts, we do have academic and corporate policies that impose higher standards for whites than blacks. For all of the talk of institutional racism, there isn't a major university or corporation in America that does not actively prioritize blacks over more meritorious whites and there isn't a single law on the books that explicitly privileges whites over blacks as they do for blacks over whites.

Inequality -- irrelevant.  We are not equal. That said, there are plenty of poor white people.  Being white doesn't mean you are guaranteed a good life. 

Police brutality -- whites are more likely to be killed by police than blacks, both in sheer numbers and adjusted for crime and arrests.

Care to elaborate on that?

12 minutes ago, Asg 15 said:

2 of your 4 points are valid which is why we need to get all the facts which should come out in a trial. The cops have in fact been charged

Mr Floyd had a violent record. He pointed a gun at a pregnant woman during a robbery. Because he didn't pull the trigger is he non violent?

Your point about the skinny white guy is not valid. If Mr Floyd had been a huge muscular white guy with a history of violence i'm damn sure he would have been cuffed. I also seem to remember reading he was pulled out of HIS vehicle. I don't know for sure if that is true or not.

 

If you still have doubts about the events leading up to George Floyd's death, how about listening to what the supposed victim said about the case?  The victim himself basically called Floyd "innocent".  And he certainly doesn't seem to agree with the handling of the situation.

"We are deeply saddened and outraged by what happened to George Floyd in front of our store,” Cup Foods owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh wrote on Facebook.  "There is no justification for the use of reckless force displayed by the police that murdered George Floyd.”

While "there is a state policy that requires stores to call the police in the case of counterfeit bills” — which Cup Foods followed as "routine practice” — "the incidents that led up to this event teach us all an important lesson about dealing with police,” the Minnesota store owner wrote in the posting Sunday.

"By simply following procedure we are putting our communities in danger. Until the police stop killing innocent people, we will handle incidents like this one using non-violent tactics that do not involve police,” he said.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-slams-police-actions/

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

If you still have doubts about the events leading up to George Floyd's death, how about listening to what the supposed victim said about the case?  The victim himself basically called Floyd "innocent".  And he certainly doesn't seem to agree with the handling of the situation.

"We are deeply saddened and outraged by what happened to George Floyd in front of our store,” Cup Foods owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh wrote on Facebook.  "There is no justification for the use of reckless force displayed by the police that murdered George Floyd.”

While "there is a state policy that requires stores to call the police in the case of counterfeit bills” — which Cup Foods followed as "routine practice” — "the incidents that led up to this event teach us all an important lesson about dealing with police,” the Minnesota store owner wrote in the posting Sunday.

"By simply following procedure we are putting our communities in danger. Until the police stop killing innocent people, we will handle incidents like this one using non-violent tactics that do not involve police,” he said.

 

https://nypost.com/2020/06/02/owner-of-store-that-called-cops-on-george-floyd-slams-police-actions/

 

 

 

And you've made my point. The facts need to come out. NO ONE, not you nor I nor the cop needs to be convicted in the court of public opinion. He needs to be convicted in court

16 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I agree equal treatment under the law, and when i see that others are being unequally treated its within my constitutional right to voice my displeasure with said inequality in the form of kneeling during a flag ceremony, that same flag that represents equal treatment under the law.

Agreed.

31 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

First question- probably a lot. And we just dont know what happened there. 

Second question- He struggled with them for like 10 minutes or more. It seems they never were able to get him properly restrained in that car while Floyd actively resisted the entire time. My guess is Chauvin had enough and went to plan B which he obviously went way overboard with. But again, we dont know. 

If hes sitting in the car and cuffed hes restrained. Taking him out of the car and putting him on the ground accomplishes nothing. 

Having said that cuffing and arresting someone without any evidence isnt generally police protocol either.

If there is evidence the bill was counterfeit where us this bill?

Why didnt the clerk give it to the police on scene as proof of accusation???

If the bill was shown how come no one seems to know where it is now?

The bill disappeared like a fart in the wind as soon as it was convenient to the cops narrative.

Maybe the bill was quietly admitted as evidence im not sure.

I find it odd there isnt more info on the bill in question.

12 minutes ago, Desertbirds said:

Yes, but some are more equal than others (with all due apologies to Orwell).

Apologies not necessary.

40 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

New Zealand also has an interesting genocidal history.  Limited to a small island, they never had the scale Americans did, but they did the most they could with what they had.  

yup, Maori scared captain cook pretty well with their Haka.

Just another example of a long line of white imperialistic genocide😞

11 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I know right??? Can you believe that they dont teach us in school that our ancestors wiped out whole nations of indigenous people so they could grow corn.

You think thats WTF go read about the trail of tears or Small Pox blankets.😒

What bothers me here is that you seem to be saying there is no way forward. 

8 minutes ago, Asg 15 said:

And you've made my point. The facts need to come out. NO ONE, not you nor I nor the cop needs to be convicted in the court of public opinion. He needs to be convicted in court

Apparently Chauvin (I believe that’s the officer’s name) is in solitary confinement, on suicide watch.   I wouldn’t be surprised if he plead guilty, tbh.  And if he is convicted, he will probably need to be in solitary confinement for the rest of his life (or sentence) because I doubt he will last a single day in general population.