3 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

If you go way back, when numbers are being counted as far as Covid deaths.  Birx said if you have Covid on the death certificate then they are counting it as a Covid caused death.  

yeah. I get that. But how might that be related to the Floyd case?

Just now, HazletonEagle said:

yeah. I get that. But how might that be related to the Floyd case?

Floyd tested positive for Covid.  If we are going by Birx and trusting what they tell us now then Floyd would have to be considered a Covid death regardless of his actual cause of death.  Wouldn't that play in favor of the officer?  Couldn't they use that in court?  For what 80 days Covid was beaten in to our heads.  Every day the death toll was scrolling across our screens and the reasoning for behind the numbers.  Wolf and Levine said the same thing as Birx.  We are counting all people who died WITH Covid to be a death BY Covid regardless of the true cause of death.

44 minutes ago, TEW said:

It doesn't matter.  He will be convicted regardless of what the evidence shows.  This is no longer a legal case.  It is an ideological case.

 

29 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

 hes going to get out of this murder charge. 

The prosecution does not need to prove that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd in any of the charges against Chauvin.  The 2nd degree murder charge was given to Chauvin because he is charged with Floyd's death while committing a felony (The "other" felony would be assaulting Floyd). 

 

Legal analysis: Under the charges, prosecutors don't have to prove former Officer Derek Chauvin intended to kill George Floyd.

 

Former Minneapolis police Officer Derek Chauvin faces a new charge of second-degree murder in connection with the death of George Floyd after first having been charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter.

Floyd died May 25 after a confrontation with Minneapolis police outside a market. Three other officers present as Chauvin had his knee on the neck on the face-down victim for 8 minutes, 46 seconds were charged with aiding and abetting murder.

 

Officers were responding to a report that someone had passed a counterfeit bill at the store. Cellphone video of the confrontation prompted outrage and more than a week of protests across the nation and beyond.

 

For Chauvin, each of the charges, from murder to manslaughter, concedes that Floyd's death was unintentional. For third-degree murder, the state needs to prove that Chauvin's act was "eminently" (translation: very) dangerous, that it caused Floyd's death and that Chauvin acted with "depraved mind" — a disregard for human life — when he held his knee on Floyd's neck.

The distinction between third-degree "depraved mind" murder and second-degree manslaughter is that manslaughter is an unintentional killing that results from a reckless act, one that disregards a risk of harm. Essentially, "depraved mind" murder requires a much greater risk and much greater harm. It's easy to see how a jury, and lawyers, could be confused by those nuances.

Chauvin is now also charged under Minnesota's "felony murder" statute. The felony murder rule allows one whose conduct brought about an unintended death while committing a felony to be found guilty of murder by imputing malice when there was no obvious evidence of intent to kill. Minnesota courts have observed that felony murder is an "anomaly" in homicide law, because malice is imputed from "crimes qualitatively different from and far less severe than murder."

 

Traditionally, the predicate felonies for felony murder included rape, arson, mayhem, robbery, burglary, larceny, prison breach and rescue of a felon. Minnesota, however, appears to have greatly expanded the reach of felony murder. The statute appears to allow any "felony offense other than [first and second degree] criminal sexual conduct ... or a drive-by shooting." In practice, however, Minnesota courts also require that the predicate felony must involve a "special danger to human life."

 

 

The predicate felony in Chauvin's case is third-degree assault. In other words, the prosecution alleges that Floyd died as a result of Chauvin's felony third-degree assault, defined as an assault resulting in the infliction of substantial bodily harm. Minnesota courts have held that third-degree assault involves that "special danger," so third-degree assault is an appropriate predicate felony.

Second-degree felony murder imputes the evil intent from some other crime or felony that happens to result in the killing. Third-degree depraved murder involves an incredibly reckless act that causes the death of another. Again, it's possible that a jury could struggle with those definitions.

For each of those charges against Chauvin, the prosecution must prove an elusive element called "causation." A person causes the death of another in Minnesota if his or her acts were a substantial causal factor leading to the person's death.

The defense will likely retain medical or other experts to testify that other health conditions, or possibly even bad drug interactions, caused Floyd's death. Of course, the state will use experts and other evidence to argue that kneeling on the back of Floyd's neck was a substantial factor in his death.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/charges-against-officer-suggest-george-floyd-s-death-unintended-n1224731

 

 

8 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Floyd tested positive for Covid.  If we are going by Birx and trusting what they tell us now then Floyd would have to be considered a Covid death regardless of his actual cause of death.  Wouldn't that play in favor of the officer?  Couldn't they use that in court?  For what 80 days Covid was beaten in to our heads.  Every day the death toll was scrolling across our screens and the reasoning for behind the numbers.  Wolf and Levine said the same thing as Birx.  We are counting all people who died WITH Covid to be a death BY Covid regardless of the true cause of death.

People took that the wrong way. That doesnt mean they are throwing out all sense and assuming none of the other stuff actually killed the person. 

In court, they wont be able to argue that he died of COVID. His death certificate will still have cardiac arrest on it, which is truly what finally killed him. 

9 minutes ago, Ace Nova said:

 

The prosecution does not need to prove that Chauvin intended to kill Floyd in any of the charges against Chauvin.  The 2nd degree murder charge was given to Chauvin because he is charged with Floyd's death while committing a felony (The "other" felony would be assaulting Floyd). 

 

Legal analysis: Under the charges, prosecutors don't have to prove former Officer Derek Chauvin intended to kill George Floyd.

 

Former Minneapolis police Officer Derek Chauvin faces a new charge of second-degree murder in connection with the death of George Floyd after first having been charged with third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter.

Floyd died May 25 after a confrontation with Minneapolis police outside a market. Three other officers present as Chauvin had his knee on the neck on the face-down victim for 8 minutes, 46 seconds were charged with aiding and abetting murder.

 

Officers were responding to a report that someone had passed a counterfeit bill at the store. Cellphone video of the confrontation prompted outrage and more than a week of protests across the nation and beyond.

 

For Chauvin, each of the charges, from murder to manslaughter, concedes that Floyd's death was unintentional. For third-degree murder, the state needs to prove that Chauvin's act was "eminently" (translation: very) dangerous, that it caused Floyd's death and that Chauvin acted with "depraved mind" — a disregard for human life — when he held his knee on Floyd's neck.

The distinction between third-degree "depraved mind" murder and second-degree manslaughter is that manslaughter is an unintentional killing that results from a reckless act, one that disregards a risk of harm. Essentially, "depraved mind" murder requires a much greater risk and much greater harm. It's easy to see how a jury, and lawyers, could be confused by those nuances.

Chauvin is now also charged under Minnesota's "felony murder" statute. The felony murder rule allows one whose conduct brought about an unintended death while committing a felony to be found guilty of murder by imputing malice when there was no obvious evidence of intent to kill. Minnesota courts have observed that felony murder is an "anomaly" in homicide law, because malice is imputed from "crimes qualitatively different from and far less severe than murder."

 

Traditionally, the predicate felonies for felony murder included rape, arson, mayhem, robbery, burglary, larceny, prison breach and rescue of a felon. Minnesota, however, appears to have greatly expanded the reach of felony murder. The statute appears to allow any "felony offense other than [first and second degree] criminal sexual conduct ... or a drive-by shooting." In practice, however, Minnesota courts also require that the predicate felony must involve a "special danger to human life."

 

 

The predicate felony in Chauvin's case is third-degree assault. In other words, the prosecution alleges that Floyd died as a result of Chauvin's felony third-degree assault, defined as an assault resulting in the infliction of substantial bodily harm. Minnesota courts have held that third-degree assault involves that "special danger," so third-degree assault is an appropriate predicate felony.

Second-degree felony murder imputes the evil intent from some other crime or felony that happens to result in the killing. Third-degree depraved murder involves an incredibly reckless act that causes the death of another. Again, it's possible that a jury could struggle with those definitions.

For each of those charges against Chauvin, the prosecution must prove an elusive element called "causation." A person causes the death of another in Minnesota if his or her acts were a substantial causal factor leading to the person's death.

The defense will likely retain medical or other experts to testify that other health conditions, or possibly even bad drug interactions, caused Floyd's death. Of course, the state will use experts and other evidence to argue that kneeling on the back of Floyd's neck was a substantial factor in his death.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/charges-against-officer-suggest-george-floyd-s-death-unintended-n1224731

 

 

so maybe he will get assault, but no murder or manslaughter.

With the videos clearly showing Floyd suffered signs and symptons well before the kneeling ever began, hes going to get off. We also know that Floyd was apparently not in full cardiac arrest until he was in the ambulance. So that didnt happen with Chauvin kneeling on him either. Symptoms occured before the incident, and his death resulted after. 

They will not prove that Chauvin directly caused this when it actually began before Chauvin was even on the scene at all. 

This country is going to go ballistic.

3 hours ago, TEW said:

Racism -- very hard to quantify. But we do have actual laws on the books that prevent whites from bidding on some government contracts, we do have academic and corporate policies that impose higher standards for whites than blacks. For all of the talk of institutional racism, there isn't a major university or corporation in America that does not actively prioritize blacks over more meritorious whites and there isn't a single law on the books that explicitly privileges whites over blacks as they do for blacks over whites.

Inequality -- irrelevant.  We are not equal. That said, there are plenty of poor white people.  Being white doesn't mean you are guaranteed a good life. 

Police brutality -- whites are more likely to be killed by police than blacks, both in sheer numbers and adjusted for crime and arrests.

Your first argument is odd because it doesn't recognize the reason the laws/policies have been enacted, nor does it account for whether they are followed and enforced.  But I guess from your argument you believe that these laws/policies are discrimatory towards white people rather than an attempt to level the playing field?  In sports, isn't that the point of a salary cap?  Give each team the same chance as the other and let the chips fall where they may?  I know your return argument is if it's a level playing field may the best person win.  However,  being black has and still is a reason a viable candidate for a job or renting an apartment isn't considered regardless of accomplishments, skill level, income.

Your definition of equality is simply based upon income?  If that is your only barometer then you make a great argument: Dave makes more than Sally so Dave and Sally aren't equal.  They don't deserve the same treatment at a gas station, don't deserve the same treatment by the same doctor paid for by the same insurance, don't deserve the same treatment at the same restaurant buying the exact same meal both paying cash because Dave makes more so they don't deserve equal treatment.   Is that your argument in a nutshell?

In total numbers, yes more white people are killed annually by police.  Per captia, of course, the story is different-

2019 stats- white people account for 73% of population (232,305,000) and 370 were killed by police- 0.000160% of pop

2019 stats- black people account for 13% of the population (42,770,000) and 235 were killed by police.  0.000554% of pop.

A black person is almost 3x more likely to be killed by a police officer than a white person. They are the most likely people to be killed by police in our country.

1.5x more likely to be killed by a police officer when unarmed

www.mappingpoliceviolence.org

25 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Floyd tested positive for Covid.  If we are going by Birx and trusting what they tell us now then Floyd would have to be considered a Covid death regardless of his actual cause of death.  Wouldn't that play in favor of the officer?  Couldn't they use that in court?  For what 80 days Covid was beaten in to our heads.  Every day the death toll was scrolling across our screens and the reasoning for behind the numbers.  Wolf and Levine said the same thing as Birx.  We are counting all people who died WITH Covid to be a death BY Covid regardless of the true cause of death.

That is not even remotely true. They are counting COVID-19 deaths for people who have COVID-19 and no other clear reason for dying. Murder tends to outweigh that. This type of ignorance and spreading of misinformation is a problem. You need to stop.

Just now, zenclaybourne said:

That is not even remotely true. They are counting COVID-19 deaths for people who have COVID-19 and no other clear reason for dying. Murder tends to outweigh that. This type of ignorance and spreading of misinformation is a problem. You need to stop.

Not spreading misinformation at all.  You can clear as day hear Birx and Levine both say in briefings that if a person tested positive for Covid-19 and they die, they are going to count it as a Covid-19 death.

I was asking the question for being used in court.  Clearly, Covid-19 was no the reason for George Floyds death.

4 minutes ago, zenclaybourne said:

That is not even remotely true. They are counting COVID-19 deaths for people who have COVID-19 and no other clear reason for dying. Murder tends to outweigh that. This type of ignorance and spreading of misinformation is a problem. You need to stop.

Youre wrong. Yes, a person who dies of something random like maybe drowning, who also had COVID will have Covid on the death certificate and be counted in the COVID death numbers. But the hospitals are also still going to put drowning on the certificate as well. They arent pretending its COVID that killed them and ignoring everything else. 

Truth is, they arent being treated any differently than a non-covid person who dies. Someone who has diabetes and high blood pressure but dies of a gun shot will still have the other co-morbidities on the death certificate as well. They wont pretend they werent shot though. 

8 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

so maybe he will get assault, but no murder or manslaughter.

With the videos clearly showing Floyd suffered signs and symptons well before the kneeling ever began, hes going to get off. We also know that Floyd was apparently not in full cardiac arrest until he was in the ambulance. So that didnt happen with Chauvin kneeling on him either. Symptoms occured before the incident, and his death resulted after. 

They will not prove that Chauvin directly caused this when it actually began before Chauvin was even on the scene at all. 

This country is going to go ballistic.

I'm not sure about that.  There's a very good chance at least one (or more) of the other officers at the scene will testify for the prosecution against Chauvin.  The only thing the prosecution needs to prove is that Chauvin's actions were reckless and that his actions were a contributing factor in Floyd's death.

 

Ex-Minneapolis cop told other officers 'you shouldn't do this' during George Floyd's arrest, lawyer says

Attorneys for two of the officers, charged with aiding and abetting murder, claimed the men tried to express concern during Floyd's deadly arrest.

 

 

One of the four former Minneapolis police officers charged in George Floyd's death tried to warn his fellow officers during the arrest, his attorney claimed in court Thursday.

The man, J. Alexander Kueng, hadn't yet completed his third full shift as a police officer when the deadly arrest occurred, his attorney, Tom Plunkett, claimed. Plunkett said Kueng told his fellow officers as they were detaining Floyd, "You shouldn't do that."

 

Kueng was in court Thursday along with former Officers Tou Thao and Thomas Lane after they were charged Wednesday with aiding and abetting murder, as well as aiding and abetting manslaughter. A fourth former officer, Derek Chauvin, was charged with second-degree murder after video showed that Chauvin placed his knee on Floyd's neck for more than eight minutes while Floyd was being detained on May 25.

 

 

Lane was also new to the job, having been on the force for only four days when the incident occurred, his attorney, Earl Gray, claimed. Gray said Lane twice asked Chauvin, a training officer, "Shall we roll him over?" He also expressed concern that Floyd may be in "delirium," Gray said.

"What is my client supposed to do other than follow what the training officer said?" Gray asked in court.

A judge ordered Kueng, Lane and Thao held an unconditional bail of $1 million compounded with $750,000 of conditional bail. No pleas were entered.

Full coverage of George Floyd's death and protests around the country

All four of the former officers face maximum sentences of 40 years in prison, according to the criminal complaints.

Multiple videos of Floyd's arrest have been released, one of them showing him pinned down by three officers near a patrol car while a fourth stands near his head.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-minneapolis-cop-told-other-officers-you-shouldn-t-do-n1225136

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Youre wrong. Yes, a person who dies of something random like maybe drowning, who also had COVID will have Covid on the death certificate and be counted in the COVID death numbers. But the hospitals are also still going to put drowning on the certificate as well. They arent pretending its COVID that killed them and ignoring everything else. 

Truth is, they arent being treated any differently than a non-covid person who dies. Someone who has diabetes and high blood pressure but dies of a gun shot will still have the other co-morbidities on the death certificate as well. They wont pretend they werent shot though. 

They're not being counted as COVID-19 deaths. You're wrong. I am not going to get into what I do for a living, but you are wrong.

1 hour ago, bpac55 said:

Here's a twist.  Floyd tested positive for Covid-19.  Dr. Birx said herself that anyone who dies and tests positive for Covid-19 is going to be considered a death by Covid regardless of other outlying issues.  

I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ here but could something as simple as those statements by her be used in Chauvin's favor?

It’s not really a twist. He tested positive beginning of April and was asymptomatic 

20 minutes ago, MediterraneanDiet said:

Your first argument is odd because it doesn't recognize the reason the laws/policies have been enacted, nor does it account for whether they are followed and enforced.  But I guess from your argument you believe that these laws/policies are discrimatory towards white people rather than an attempt to level the playing field?  In sports, isn't that the point of a salary cap?  Give each team the same chance as the other and let the chips fall where they may?  I know your return argument is if it's a level playing field may the best person win.  However,  being black has and still is a reason a viable candidate for a job or renting an apartment isn't considered regardless of accomplishments, skill level, income.

Your definition of equality is simply based upon income?  If that is your only barometer then you make a great argument: Dave makes more than Sally so Dave and Sally aren't equal.  They don't deserve the same treatment at a gas station, don't deserve the same treatment by the same doctor paid for by the same insurance, don't deserve the same treatment at the same restaurant buying the exact same meal both paying cash because Dave makes more so they don't deserve equal treatment.   Is that your argument in a nutshell?

In total numbers, yes more white people are killed annually by police.  Per captia, of course, the story is different-

2019 stats- white people account for 73% of population (232,305,000) and 370 were killed by police- 0.000160% of pop

2019 stats- black people account for 13% of the population (42,770,000) and 235 were killed by police.  0.000554% of pop.

A black person is almost 3x more likely to be killed by a police officer than a white person. They are the most likely people to be killed by police in our country.

1.5x more likely to be killed by a police officer when unarmed

www.mappingpoliceviolence.org

 

It doesn't matter why they're enacted. You can concoct any justification you wish for racial discrimination, but it's still racial discrimination.  If the government, academia and corporate America are all actively and openly promoting one group A over group B, and prioritizing group A over group B, giving preference group A over group B, giving lower standards to group A than group B, then by golly, the system is definitely discriminating against group B. As for the rest of your argument, teams? Really? Are we racial teams? Is that where we are? Because if so, this is going to get very ugly very quickly.

My argument is that no one is equal to another so any expectation of an equal outcome is folly.  We are individuals.  We each have different potential limits in everything from health, to height, to strength, to speed, to intelligence, to physical beauty. Many of these traits translate into material wealth better than others. Being a physically attractive person has advantages.  Being an intelligent person has advantages.  Being a tall person has advantages. It's not only about what you deserve in an absolute sense. We also have different preferences. So on both ends of any human interaction (economic or otherwise) there will be the potential for preferences to introduce themselves to the equation. You can be a wonderful person, a person so wholesome and warm that one could say you deserve a lot by virtue of your kindness and such. But that's an abstraction, and in the real world, people don't treat every person the same.  Despite your wholesomeness, you might not offer equal value to the person with whom you are interacting. They might want more money from you, they might prefer a more attractive person than you, they might want to deal with a smarter person than you, and so on.  Yes, sometimes these preferences are race based.  It's unfortunate, but we don't live in a utopia and never will.

As for the racial disparities in police killings, you have to adjust this for crime. Blacks commit crime at a far higher rate than whites.  So of course they are going to have more fatal interactions relative to their population, because their population commits far more crime.  When adjusting for these discrepancies in criminality, whites are slightly more likely to be killed.

3 hours ago, Asg 15 said:

2Mr Floyd had a violent record. He pointed a gun at a pregnant woman during a robbery. Because he didn't pull the trigger is he non violent?

If Mr Floyd had been a huge muscular white guy with a history of violence i'm damn sure he would have been cuffed. I also seem to remember reading he was pulled out of HIS vehicle. I don't know for sure if that is true or not.

 

Floyd’s criminal history is irrelevant to the chokehold response. At the time of the chokehold, he was already in cuffs. What’s he going to do?  The chokehold was unnecessary and improper.

Remember when the Eagles drafted Jalen Hurts in the 2nd round? That was crazy!

Another jersey mock up!

50 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Youre wrong. Yes, a person who dies of something random like maybe drowning, who also had COVID will have Covid on the death certificate and be counted in the COVID death numbers. But the hospitals are also still going to put drowning on the certificate as well. They arent pretending its COVID that killed them and ignoring everything else. 

Truth is, they arent being treated any differently than a non-covid person who dies. Someone who has diabetes and high blood pressure but dies of a gun shot will still have the other co-morbidities on the death certificate as well. They wont pretend they werent shot though. 

Absolutely not true. 

Lower shield to prevent droplets.  Not sure how this will actually work with players during a full game.

52 minutes ago, zenclaybourne said:

They're not being counted as COVID-19 deaths. You're wrong. I am not going to get into what I do for a living, but you are wrong.

What has and has not been counted as a COVID death has been very erratic and inconsistent across hospital systems and states.

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

 

It doesn't matter why they're enacted. You can concoct any justification you wish for racial discrimination, but it's still racial discrimination.  If the government, academia and corporate America are all actively and openly promoting one group A over group B, and prioritizing group A over group B, giving preference group A over group B, giving lower standards to group A than group B, then by golly, the system is definitely discriminating against group B. As for the rest of your argument, teams? Really? Are we racial teams? Is that where we are? Because if so, this is going to get very ugly very quickly.

My argument is that no one is equal to another so any expectation of an equal outcome is folly.  We are individuals.  We each have different potential limits in everything from health, to height, to strength, to speed, to intelligence, to physical beauty. Many of these traits translate into material wealth better than others. Being a physically attractive person has advantages.  Being an intelligent person has advantages.  Being a tall person has advantages. It's not only about what you deserve in an absolute sense. We also have different preferences. So on both ends of any human interaction (economic or otherwise) there will be the potential for preferences to introduce themselves to the equation. You can be a wonderful person, a person so wholesome and warm that one could say you deserve a lot by virtue of your kindness and such. But that's an abstraction, and in the real world, people don't treat every person the same.  Despite your wholesomeness, you might not offer equal value to the person with whom you are interacting. They might want more money from you, they might prefer a more attractive person than you, they might want to deal with a smarter person than you, and so on.  Yes, sometimes these preferences are race based.  It's unfortunate, but we don't live in a utopia and never will.

As for the racial disparities in police killings, you have to adjust this for crime. Blacks commit crime at a far higher rate than whites.  So of course they are going to have more fatal interactions relative to their population, because their population commits far more crime.  When adjusting for these discrepancies in criminality, whites are slightly more likely to be killed.

I don't see it as discrimination I see it from this lense: the policies are in place because it was the last resort.  Without the policies, even with how ineffective they are, if your are black, you face discrimination just because of the color of your skin.  This is an attempt to change this, not discrimination against another.  This is the message: we cant ignore due to skin color even though that is our tendency and inclination.  As for teams, it was an analogy not literal.

You can list all our differences based upon genetic variances and claim that is why we aren't equal.  Of course, we could delve deeper into genetics and find all the ways in which we are not only equal, but identical. So to think we aren't equal is truly the folly. My argument wasn't about someone being a nice caring person not offering the same qualities needed for one job or situation than another.  My argument is that people who offer the same qualities and one gets more opportunities than.the other due to the color of their skin.  

On the website I shared at the end of my post there is excellent date on the relationship between violent crime and police killing.  Since you believe so much in how socio-economic factors make equality a folly, you should use your intellect and ability to craft words and thoughts to study how and why poverty relates to petty crime and the racial disparity in arrests between black and white in relation to this.

23 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Another jersey mock up!

Not a bad look, but too close to the Jets current color scheme IMO 

6 hours ago, HazletonEagle said:

I didn't read any of this because I already knows it's stupid. 

Run out of defense mechanisms, liar?  You exposed your true colors today and many of us thought you were better. Not in the viewpoint but in your lack of intellectual honesty or logic. Shame. 

the pathetic part of this is that you’re not capable of having someone disagree with you without the personal attacks and childishness  why are you so fragile?  It’s a discussion board  

looking forward to the months of butthurt passive aggressive responses to this. Cheers

GJ Tate. "The trade was worth it!”

What’s been your social distancing/snack food of choice? I discovered these a few months back and they’re incredible. I’m sure @NoDak Eagle is familiar. 

Not sure why the photo is sideways...

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

What’s been your social distancing/snack food of choice? I discovered these a few months back and they’re incredible. I’m sure @NoDak Eagle is familiar. 

Not sure why the photo is sideways...

I turned my screen... but, that makes it upside down.  And now I'm dizzy.  I don't know what to do.