2 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I don’t care about 10-20 years ago. I’m talking about now and the future. Obviously Brady is the goat, but there just aren’t many pure pocket passers anymore. Improvisational skills are really important. 

I didn't say 'pure pocket' passers, I said that the number one criteria needs to be play within the pocket.  The running part is a bonus, but if you are relying on your legs, it will lead to two things... short comings in the playoffs and/or limited longevity.   Pocket passers have the longevity to keep a window open for much much longer.   So, if I am going to be bringing in a QB, I don't want to know how he runs, I want to know how he passes above all else.  

7 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

I don’t care about 10-20 years ago. I’m talking about now and the future. Obviously Brady is the goat, but there just aren’t many pure pocket passers anymore. Improvisational skills are really important. 

It was gonna change with Cunningham, it was gonna change with McNair and Mcnabb, it was gonna change with Vick, it was gonna change with Kap.

You win in the NFL from passing from the pocket, and that is never gonna change.

Lamar Jackson is 1-3 in the playoffs, the only game he won, ran for more than 100 yards.  You take his running away, and he does not win in the playoffs.

13 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

IP, you also moved the goal posts. It was running is a bonus, but now it’s deep playoff runs and running better than their passing. 

A QB’s ability to run and be mobile should of course be part of the evaluation. And before you move the goal posts again, yes, I agree that passing is the single most important component of a QB’s on-field evaluation 

I didn't move the goal posts... if a QB can run, that part of the evaluation is a bonus.   Bonuses are nice.  If there are two QBs with equal throwing ability, the one with the bonus would likely be the one I selected.  But, I wouldn't take a 'running' QB with limited passing ability over a QB who excels in the pocket but stands as a statue.  

 

Kaepernick and Vick also both had rocket arms, in addition to their legs.  They weren't limited in which throws they could make, only in their ability to execute it based on reading the defenses, pre-snap checks, etc.  Their arm talent was never questioned.

Ben Simmons is Deshaun Watson'ing his way out of Philly 

7 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Ben Simmons is Deshaun Watson'ing his way out of Philly 

what did he do now?

Shout out to Ben Simmons and Carson Wentz for forcing their respective organizations to do what they should have done anyway

3 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

what did he do now?

Said he's not reporting to TC and vowed to never play another game for the organization 

Hurts has more than adequate arm strength.  I disagree about a rope versus arc.  Foles has always had an arc.  On long balls, watch Wilson and his release point.  Good arc, which helps him get the ball over the lines.  Wilson throws on the run with the same release point.  Dissect that long ball to Smith. Smith is open when Hurts releases the pass.  But he threw Smith into coverage because he was late. Release it two seconds earlier and he hits Smith on the 10 when he is still open.  

I don’t know if Hurts will speed up his reads as he ages.  Brady did.  Brees did.  Peyton was always quick.  He threw two pretty long passes so he can do it.  But we need to see some over the middle real soon.  He can do that.  He did it with Lamb at Oklahoma.  

Couple other points.  I was glad to see Sirianni admit to failing with the trick play. I also like that he acknowledged no outlet receiver and that he did that on the Ertz pass too.  Hopefully, he recognizes the failure in that sort of play design and corrects it.  He is accountable for the loss.

San Francisco is close to the same team that made it to the Super Bowl.  The NFC West is strong this year.  

JR is right that the failure to prevent the toss play was a killer.  Connecticut is also right about having no LBs but Kittle wasn’t the defense killer.  It was Samuel. Our  LBs cannot cover him and DBs alone have trouble tackling him.  Not sure what Gannon could do. A healthy Taylor, maybe?  I sure hope that Howie understands he needs to do better at LB.  

Without delving too deeply into the nuances of whether Hurts' arm is good enough to succeed in the NFL, be a QB for a SB champion, etc. I would express it in basic terms -- is he:

1.  a runner that can throw, or

2.  a thrower that can run

For category 1 the QBs I would include are Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Jalen Hurts, Daniel Jones

For category 2 the QBs I would include are Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson

 

A guy like Deshaun Watson stands out because he's about even at both.  Kyler Murray should be even at both, but his small stature dictates he has to be outside the pocket and on the move -- and is arm is erratic, like McNabb's was.. 

Personally, I have a bias against runners that can throw.  Cunningham was beyond frustrating to watch, Vick got to a point with the Eagles when you knew he was going to get injured before long.  Job #1 in the NFL is the ability to make all the throws; being a dynamic runner has always been entertaining but unsuccessful in the end.

5 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Said he's not reporting to TC and vowed to never play another game for the organization 

2 hours ago, Mike31mt said:

Nick Foles won a SB. Did he not?

Saying we "dont understand arm strength" is ridiculous.  You guys are simply over valuing it while those of "us" can acknowledge that Hurts' arm is completely adequate for winning football games

Against the shiddy falcons maybe

4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

That really isn't new news.  

I know. But the Sixers tried to play nice and get him on board and he's reiterating it. Whatever, he's a loser. 

26 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

2 examples in the last 17 years.  Great evidence.  

He asked. I provided. Thanks for chiming in. 

23 minutes ago, downundermike said:

It was gonna change with Cunningham, it was gonna change with McNair and Mcnabb, it was gonna change with Vick, it was gonna change with Kap.

You win in the NFL from passing from the pocket, and that is never gonna change.

Lamar Jackson is 1-3 in the playoffs, the only game he won, ran for more than 100 yards.  You take his running away, and he does not win in the playoffs.

Yup

we are dealing in probabilities here. Pointing to outliers is the weakest of arguments to rationalize an opinion.

22 minutes ago, downundermike said:

It was gonna change with Cunningham, it was gonna change with McNair and Mcnabb, it was gonna change with Vick, it was gonna change with Kap.

You win in the NFL from passing from the pocket, and that is never gonna change.

Lamar Jackson is 1-3 in the playoffs, the only game he won, ran for more than 100 yards.  You take his running away, and he does not win in the playoffs.

As is always the case in here, these conversations spiral out of control. IP said running is a bonus. It is not. Passing from the pocket is of course vital. Mobility and running are important. Look at the influx of mobile QBs and the decreasing punt of pure pocket passers. 

1 hour ago, downundermike said:

That is the definition of lack of arm strength.  His mechanics have to be perfect to throw it that far.  Mahommes or Allen would have put that ball on him while still on the move.

Ok but that doesnt mean Hurts' arm isnt strong enough, it just means he won't be able to bail himself/the coaches out like those other guys might be able to

 

If I cant reference the lack of arm strength for Brady, Brees, Manning as an example of guys being successful without strong arms, how is it fair for you guys to make Allen and Mahomes the benchmarks for arm strength?

 

Like I said, its the William Wallace Complex.  As Eagles fans we're always waiting for that perfect specimen QB who will overcome any and all obstacles no matter what and win us multiple SBs by sheer will and talent

1 hour ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Oh.  So it’s not "end of discussion”?   

It should have been but not everyone can follow logic

4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

Absolutely lazy and ridiculous comparison.  Wentz never said he wouldn't report or publicly demanded a trade.  He also didn't quit on his team on national TV.  

Dont get me wrong, Simmons is worse. But both were very flawed players whose teams only gave up on them when their hands were tied.

29 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I didn't say 'pure pocket' passers, I said that the number one criteria needs to be play within the pocket.  The running part is a bonus, but if you are relying on your legs, it will lead to two things... short comings in the playoffs and/or limited longevity.   Pocket passers have the longevity to keep a window open for much much longer.   So, if I am going to be bringing in a QB, I don't want to know how he runs, I want to know how he passes above all else.  

That’s what I said. I just think you’re wrong in saying running/mobility is just a bonus. It isn’t anymore. It matters. 

Smartest thing the Sixers can do is file an action against Simmons for breach of contract. They aren’t getting diddly squat trading him, so make an example of him by seeking damages for breach of contract.  A faux prima dona that has failed to do what is necessary to be a prima dona.  He is the perfect candidate for a major sports league team to finally do this.  I would suggest that one count be a bad faith breach claim.

1 hour ago, ManuManu said:

Yeah, I thought Orlovsky’s comments were missing quite a bit of nuance, which isn’t like him. 

Im blaming you for this today

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

Hurts has more than adequate arm strength.  I disagree about a rope versus arc.  Foles has always had an arc.  On long balls, watch Wilson and his release point.  Good arc, which helps him get the ball over the lines.  Wilson throws on the run with the same release point.  Dissect that long ball to Smith. Smith is open when Hurts releases the pass.  But he threw Smith into coverage because he was late. Release it two seconds earlier and he hits Smith on the 10 when he is still open.  

Where was it suggested that 'touch passes' don't have a place?  Of course a touch pass is going to have its place.  However, the inability to throw a rope requires different skills, including anticipation and quicker reads.  Foles was good at that (in a certain context).  Foles ran the RPOs very well, because when he was permitted to just read that one defender, he could make that quick decision and get the ball where it needed to be quickly.  

 

The whole point of this is that when the arm strength isn't there to make up for the late reads and late release, the ball arrives late.  By having faster reads, you can compensate.  When the reads are slow, then the throw arrives late and you have no way to compensate.  That's the whole point of the discussion.  If he had a stronger arm, he could have had the same moment of the release, and put the ball further out than he did, and Smith could be open.  But, he doesn't have that, which means he has to learn how to get the ball out quicker, so that he can release it sooner and have the ball arrive on time.  The jury is out on whether or not he can do that.  But, I think the jury has come back with the decision that the arm strength isn't there to allow him to be slow in making reads and still getting the ball where it needs to be.   It will be late and/or under thrown... and defenders will make plays on the ball that they shouldn't be able to make if the ball is released sooner, or put out further.

 

But, it still isn't about the distance traveled by the throw.  He has enough arm strength to get the ball to every part of the field that he would need to get it to... on time and on target, but since the trajectory is going to include more arc, he has less time to make the read, so he needs to compensate for it.  We'll see in the next 15 games if he can.   But, he likely won't be able to do that if he's on the move either.  In those cases, he'll need to find closer targets to outlet the ball, rather than just having the receivers turn and go deep on a scramble drill... instead, they will need to come back to their QB.  That can also work, but it needs to be a part of the design.

23 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

If you don't care about 10-20 years ago.  Then why bring up Vick in the NFCCG as an example of a running QB being successful?  

Good.  Bye.  He'll report when he is fined, daily.  What a pss  

Because he asked for an example. Pretty clear, right?

1 minute ago, Mike31mt said:

Im blaming you for this today

I woke up and chose violence.

I think the 49ers have a chance to be good over the course of the season, but to call them good on Sunday is incorrect. They weren't good. They also were missing their two starting CB's, starting LB, RB1 and RB2, some depth guys at WR, and other guys on their DL that were limited all week in practice. 

Eagles didn't take advantage of a game they had a chance to win by their own doing. It wasn't a "moral victory".

43 minutes ago, What The F said:

How big of a factor though? In the last 20 years, a mobile QB has won the SB twice...  Wilson and Mahomes. 

We need to refer to the blogtionary on the definition of mobile for this...add Rodgers and Big Ben and it becomes once every 4 years.

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

That’s what I said. I just think you’re wrong in saying running/mobility is just a bonus. It isn’t anymore. It matters. 

You said you don't want to know how he runs?  Because that's what I just said.  

The last 6 Super Bowl winners were: Brady, Mahomes, Brady, Foles, Brady, P. Manning.   The only one that remotely fits that bill is Mahomes, and his arm talent is ridiculous and he can throw from any platform, as well as in the pocket.  

Go back another 6 years... Brady, Wilson, Flacco, the other Manning, Rodgers and Brees.   Wilson has that mobility, but again, has great arm talent and can absolutely beat you in the pocket if he needs to, and he doesn't run as a part of the design of the offense, but as a last resort, most of the time, still looking to throw.

Sorry, I just don't see this trend towards mobile QBs being the way to go in terms of ultimate success.   Sure, they can win in the regular season... but not so much when it really matters.  The bigger the game becomes, the more the pocket matters.