1 minute ago, mr_hunt said:

you guys care way more about west virgina mike's religion than i do. 

i grew up catholic & my kid attends a catholic school...and i feel that people can believe & follow whatever religion they want. but they shouldn't force those beliefs on others and sure as sheet shouldn't base laws on their particular religion.  the bible isn't a law book for the united states of america. 

 

 

That's always been my issue. Especially when their book straight up contradicts itself over and over again.

1 minute ago, Mike31mt said:

Again, I dont understand your point

I literally posted the following excerpt:

Know what the Bible is – and what it isn't. The Bible is the story of God's relationship with the people he has called to himself. It is not intended to be read as history text, a science book, or a political manifesto. In the Bible, God teaches us the truths that we need for the sake of our salvation

 

The bible is a collection of various books intended for various purposes.  Your question is based on a lack of understanding of the bible.  You dont go from one book to the next trying to figure out which passages are literal instructions and which arent, thats not the point at all.

You have already pointed out some text that you say should be interpreted literally and others that you say shouldn't be interpreted literally.  If these are only stories then nothing in them should be taken literally.  Everything must be interpreted.  Can we agree with that?

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

Mike doesn't understand anyone's point, nor can he answer anyone's questions, but don't ridicule him for his lack of comprehension, he's just trying to have an adult conversation here folks.

Dumb post.  This is how I know all your bullish is just about your ego.  Youre not trying to have a discussion and yours not deserving of one because your sole purpose is to score internet points

Youre a clown as usual.

1 minute ago, mr_hunt said:

you guys care way more about west virgina mike's religion than i do. 

i grew up catholic & my kid attends a catholic school...and i feel that people can believe & follow whatever religion they want. but they shouldn't force those beliefs on others and sure as sheet shouldn't base laws on their particular religion.  the bible isn't a law book for the united states of america. 

 

 

And I agree with that, which is why I feel the way I do about abortion and the law.  

Just now, Mike31mt said:

Dumb post.  This is how I know all your bullish is just about your ego.  Youre not trying to have a discussion and yours not deserving of one because your sole purpose is to score internet points

Youre a clown as usual.

Not nearly as dumb as saying you've answered a question that you've clearly evaded for 2 pages and counting. 

1 minute ago, DrPhilly said:

You have already pointed out some text that you say should be interpreted literally and others that you say shouldn't be interpreted literally.  If these are only stories then nothing in them should be taken literally.  Everything must be interpreted.  Can we agree with that?

Yes of course, thats the entire point!

Though I would say there are many books that arent stories.  There are songs, poems, letters, etc.

Am I to just ignore all the sections that are clearly allegory?  No, I try to analyze it and the meaning behind it. 

Im not parsing through like "yep, I believe that part so Ill do that....nope, that didnt happen so forget that passage".....thats not how its supposed to work

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Not nearly as dumb as saying you've answered a question that you've clearly evaded for 2 pages and counting. 

Ive answered it, you just want to play games and steer the conversation off course as usual

6 minutes ago, mr_hunt said:

 

i grew up catholic & my kid attends a catholic school...and i feel that people can believe & follow whatever religion they want. but they shouldn't force those beliefs on others and sure as sheet shouldn't base laws on their particular religion.  the bible isn't a law book for the united states of america.

100% agree

Just now, Mike31mt said:

Yes of course, thats the entire point!

Though I would say there are many books that arent stories.  There are songs, poems, letters, etc.

Am I to just ignore all the sections that are clearly allegory?  No, I try to analyze it and the meaning behind it. 

Im not parsing through like "yep, I believe that part so Ill do that....nope, that didnt happen so forget that passage".....thats not how its supposed to work

Ive answered it, you just want to play games and steer the conversation off course as usual

Please quote the post where you've answered if you believe IVF clinics are murdering thousands of lives every day...

2 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Am I to just ignore all the sections that are clearly allegory?  No, I try to analyze it and the meaning behind it. 

Ok, then you need to be open to the fact that people will interpret it differently AND that you can't take the standpoint of claiming the bible provides some sort of truth.  It offers some lessons that people can learn and use but you can't point to some verse and then say "it says right here so we need this law.." etc.

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

Please quote the post where you've answered if you believe IVF clinics are murdering thousands of lives every day...

Ive said a hundred times that I personally believe life begins at conception.  But I understand there are nuances for this discussion, particularly as my beliefs relate to how I feel our laws should be crafted

Thats my internal debate and I have little idea what it has to do with anything being discussed in here.

I believe exceptions should be made for rape, for example.  Youre trying to paint me into a dogmatic corner and its not going to happen, mostly because thats not where I live on this issue, but also because youre not nearly that clever

Just now, DrPhilly said:

Ok, then you need to be open to the fact that people will interpret it differently AND that you can't take the standpoint of claiming the bible provides some sort of truth.  It offers some lessons that people can learn and use but you can't point to some verse and then say "it says right here so we need this law.." etc.

When did I ever say that? 

In fact I said the exact opposite in my first post about the Rainbow Pastor trying to do exactly that

3 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

When did I ever say that? 

In fact I said the exact opposite in my first post about the Rainbow Pastor trying to do exactly that

ok, then we are finished with this one from my perspective

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/08/fact-sheet-president-biden-to-sign-executive-order-protecting-access-to-reproductive-health-care-services/

 

Today, President Biden will sign an Executive Order Protecting Access to Reproductive Health Care Services. This Executive Order builds on the actions his Administration has already taken to defend reproductive rights by:

• Safeguarding access to reproductive health care services, including abortion and contraception;
• Protecting the privacy of patients and their access to accurate information;
• Promoting the safety and security of patients, providers, and clinics; and
• Coordinating the implementation of Federal efforts to protect reproductive rights and access to health care.

 

1 hour ago, Mike31mt said:

Show you the water levels?  What the hell are you even talking about

 

So those "evil" scientists have found a way to figure out how our land was formed, and a big part of it is by studying rock strata. Geologists deal with this. They can tell when the last ice age occurred, and how the slabs of ice retreated, because water is an insanely powerful element, and it literally carves through rock and leaves a story of when it did so. 

So, if there was a 'biblical' flood, of 40 days and 40 nights, with water reaching over 22 cubits than the highest mountain....there'd have to be some evidence of the water retreating afterwards, no? Considering geologists are able to postulate pretty accurately what happened millions of years ago, certainly they could go back just a mere thousands of years to figure out Noah's bubbameister? 

Now of course, if you study any other religion, almost all of them have some story of epic flooding. Seems the Christ boys were nothing more than plagiarists. 

so wait, ric ocasek was actually jesus ? so the 2nd coming already came and went ? 

 

48 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Ive said a hundred times that I personally believe life begins at conception.  But I understand there are nuances for this discussion, particularly as my beliefs relate to how I feel our laws should be crafted

Thats my internal debate and I have little idea what it has to do with anything being discussed in here.

I believe exceptions should be made for rape, for example.  Youre trying to paint me into a dogmatic corner and its not going to happen, mostly because thats not where I live on this issue, but also because youre not nearly that clever

When did I ever say that? 

In fact I said the exact opposite in my first post about the Rainbow Pastor trying to do exactly that

So then it's fair to say you personally believe IVF clinics are murdering thousands of lives everyday, right?

2 hours ago, Mike31mt said:

So let me get this straight, your take is that more "non-religous" people read the bible than "religious" people?

 

No. Try to deal with the actual words I type.

2 hours ago, Mike31mt said:

I dont believe you

Good. Maybe one day you can apply this skill to what you get from Fox, or Trump.

 

I doubt it, but maybe you'll not swallow ALL the time?

3 hours ago, Mike31mt said:

But the anti-religious surely do, right?  Theyre bible experts like Mr Rainbow Pastor here citing the old testament to defend abortion.   

That should work out well for him and his pretend Christianity

The median atheist knows more about the Bible than the median self-described Christian.

(That's a quote from my very religious - Catholic - friend bemoaning typical Catholics in his own church who seem more preoccupied with the trappings and social aspects of his religion than living their lives as Jesus prescribed)

2 hours ago, Mike31mt said:

Hey look another person who doesnt understand Christianity.

If you have issues with the old testament go ask a Jewish person 

 

And we're not talking about misogyny, are we?  Why did you bring that up and not abortion?

Could it be that you agree with me but still want to argue?  No way, that cant be it

You trying to argue the new testament was a revision of the old testament? 

That seems quite counter to various core Christian beliefs about God and his fallibility or lack thereof.

2 hours ago, we_gotta_believe said:

So you truly believe IVF clinics are murdering babies by the thousands every day, yeah?

Given that it's up to the individual patient to decide what to do with unused embryos I'd argue, no, the clinic is not murdering babies.

4 minutes ago, paco said:

Given that it's up to the individual patient to decide what to do with unused embryos I'd argue, no, the clinic is not murdering babies.

Many times the embryos are abandoned and the clinic eventually disposes of them. So in some cases, the clinic is taking the action to discard them after having no longer heard back from patients. 

3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Many times the embryos are abandoned and the clinic eventually disposes of them. So in some cases, the clinic is taking the action to discard them after having no longer heard back from patients. 

It's my understanding patients sign a waiver what to do with additional embryos.  Dispose, save for later or put up for embryo adoption.  By abandon do you mean people who opt' for option 2 and stopped paying?  Because outside of that very specific example, the fate of the embryo is up to the patient.

Just now, paco said:

It's my understanding patients sign a waiver what to do with additional embryos.  Dispose, save for later or put up for embryo adoption.  By abandon do you mean people who opt' for option 2 and stopped paying?  Because outside of that very specific example, the fate of the embryo is up to the patient.

Correct. And to be clear, the clinics are still playing an active role in the "destruction of life" in the other scenarios, they're simply doing it at the direction of their patients just as a doctor performing an abortion would be doing.

5 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Correct. And to be clear, the clinics are still playing an active role in the "destruction of life" in the other scenarios, they're simply doing it at the direction of their patients just as a doctor performing an abortion would be doing.

Same argument can be made about planned parenthood, abortion clinics, etc.  But the difference is they are actively creating babies in MOST cases.  That's why I see the "IVF clinics murder babies" argument stupid because its not a primary function to dispose of embryos and most cases its at the direction of the patient.

6 minutes ago, paco said:

Same argument can be made about planned parenthood, abortion clinics, etc.  But the difference is they are actively creating babies in MOST cases.  That's why I see the "IVF clinics murder babies" argument stupid because its not a primary function to dispose of embryos and most cases its at the direction of the patient.

If you believe an embyro is a life, I don't see how you can say the IVF clinic isn't destroying life when it discards unused embryos. Even if they're not entirely at fault because they're doing it at the direction of their patients, they're still at least partly at fault for the destruction of life. Would a doctor who performs an abortion considered not to be killing the baby if abortions aren't their primary function? If someone hires a hitman to kill someone, would the hitman would not also be charged with murder?