Jalen Hurts - shoulder sprain injury; expected for playoffs

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SNOORDA said:

When comparing qb’s who are mobile including ones no longer in the the game shouldn’t Vick always be included?   

I had a post of all their numbers.

Vick, 42.7 rushing yards per career game, 51.33 in his first 6 starts.

Jalen Hurts 69.3 rushing yards per game.

Jalen Hurts runs at a 68% higher frequency than Mike Vick.

[highboy]

3 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Russell Wilson runs on 15.6 % of his total plays.

Jalen Hurts runs on 28% of his total plays.

They are not the same.

Yes comparing percentages from a player who has been in the league for almost a decade and one that has not even played half a season is not the same. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, highboy said:

Yes comparing percentages from a player who has been in the league for almost a decade and one that has not even played half a season is not the same. 

Jalen Hurts averages 69 rushing yards per game.

In his first 6 starts, Russell Wilson averaged 18.17 yards per game.

Jalen Hurts ran for 4 times as many yards as Russell Wilson in their first 6 starts.

They are not the same.

 

 

 

 

You know I can do this all day, but the point has been beyond proven.

[highboy]

Just now, downundermike said:

Jalen Hurts averages 69 rushing yards per game.

In his first 6 starts, Russell Wilson averaged 18.17 yards per game.

Jalen Hurts ran for 4 times as many yards as Russell Wilson in their first 6 starts.

They are not the same.

 

 

 

 

You know I can do this all day, but the point has been beyond proven.

The only point you're proving is that you are dogmatic about a standard that you set by yourself for what is or isn't a running quarterback. You have yet to prove that your standard is even logical. Your entire thought process boils down to "These statistics are the criteria for what is or isn't a running quarterback because I said so". 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, highboy said:

The only point you're proving is that you are dogmatic about a standard that you set by yourself for what is or isn't a running quarterback. You have yet to prove that your standard is even logical. Your entire thought process boils down to "These statistics are the criteria for what is or isn't a running quarterback because I said so". 

When you build an offense around a QB’s running ability, and the numbers prove how much he runs, he is a running QB.

Seattles offense has always been built around Russell Wilson’s passing ability, and his running is a bonus.  He is a passing QB.

Nick Foles ran Chip Kelly’s rpo offense better then Mike Vick.  Is Nick Foles a running QB ??

[highboy]

1 minute ago, downundermike said:

When you build an offense around a QB’s running ability, and the numbers prove how much he runs, he is a running QB.

Seattles offense has always been built around Russell Wilson’s passing ability, and his running is a bonus.  He is a passing QB.

Nick Foles ran Chip Kelly’s rpo offense better then Mike Vick.  Is Nick Foles a running QB ??

Literally none of that refuted what I said. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, highboy said:

Literally none of that refuted what I said. 

Really ??

Building an offense around a QB's running ability makes him a running QB.  How is that so hard to understand.

 

[highboy]

11 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Really ??

Building an offense around a QB's running ability makes him a running QB.  How is that so hard to understand.

 

I never said Jalen wasn't a running QB? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, highboy said:

I never said Jalen wasn't a running QB? 

Russell Wilson is not

[highboy]

21 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Russell Wilson is not

Sure he is

[MillerTime]

23 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Russell Wilson is not

Yes he is, he is both, it’s called dual-threat. Wilson uses his legs to create the pass. He is outside the pocket a lot. If he had the mobility of TB and stayed still in the pocket he wouldn’t be in the league anymore IMO. 

[Green_Guinness]

Mike, I agree with you on what the parameters are for a running QB vs a QB who has the ability to run, but you should give up this argument.  This poster seems convinced that any QB who doesn't stand in the pocket like a statue is a running QB.  Example, Fran Tarkenton was a running QB because he could scramble (the poster's POV going off the posts I've read, not mine as I disagree he was a running QB).  Dan Marino is not a running QB. 

 

[MillerTime]

8 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

Mike, I agree with you on what the parameters are for a running QB vs a QB who has the ability to run, but you should give up this argument.  This poster seems convinced that any QB who doesn't stand in the pocket like a statue is a running QB.  Example, Fran Tarkenton was a running QB because he could scramble (the poster's POV going off the posts I've read, not mine as I disagree he was a running QB).  Dan Marino is not a running QB. 

 

I personally just disagree with Wilson. There are plenty of passing QBs who use there arm to set up the run. Watch Rodgers as an example. I’ve just watched a lot of Wilson games. And he runs around a lot and he completes a lot of passes because the defense is scared of him taking off. He is one of 10 QBs with over 3400 yards in league history for a reason. He is both a running and passing QB. 

[MF POON]

No, it's that Mike is foolishly trying to make the argument that Hurts sucks because he's just a running QB.  What he's also conveniently left out is that Hurts has averaged more passing yards in his first 6 starts than those he's been compared to as well.  So which is it, is he just a running QB, or is he a dual threat? If it's the former, the stats say otherwise.  

[Green_Guinness]

1 minute ago, MillerTime said:

I personally just disagree with Wilson. There are plenty of passing QBs who use there arm to set up the run. Watch Rodgers as an example. I’ve just watched a lot of Wilson games. And he runs around a lot and he completes a lot of passes because the defense is scared of him taking off.

For the record, I wasn't referring to you, but the poster Mike was debating with. 

Wilson scrambles around a lot, some times too much.  He gets away with an ish ton when he throws the ball up after a long scramble, but defenders can't cover receivers forever so there's always a breakdown and a receiver open just enough or more.  He won't be able to keep it up for too much longer, though.  He still looks to pass it first if he can, but does use his legs a lot to buy himself more time.

 

[MillerTime]

2 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

For the record, I wasn't referring to you, but the poster Mike was debating with. 

Wilson scrambles around a lot, some times too much.  He gets away with an ish ton when he throws the ball up after a long scramble, but defenders can't cover receivers forever so there's always a breakdown and a receiver open just enough or more.  He won't be able to keep it up for too much longer, though.  He still looks to pass it first if he can, but does use his legs a lot to buy himself more time.

 

I know, I just wanted to make it known I was specifically referring to just Wilson. 

[Green_Guinness]

25 minutes ago, MF POON said:

No, it's that Mike is foolishly trying to make the argument that Hurts sucks because he's just a running QB.  What he's also conveniently left out is that Hurts has averaged more passing yards in his first 6 starts than those he's been compared to as well.  So which is it, is he just a running QB, or is he a dual threat? If it's the former, the stats say otherwise.  

Even though he's put up more yards than the other QBs he's being compared to, I think you also need to take into account that today's game is different even when compared to when Wilson was in his 1st/2nd season.  The rules have changed since then to more favour the O and the WRs.  It's a passing league now more so than ever and the powers that be have set it up to be so.  Thus any comparison of passing yards has to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

IMO, he relies too much on his legs and his running to gain yardage as opposed to doing what Wilson does in using his legs to buy time to still try and throw the ball.  That doesn't mean I want him running around 10-20 yards behind the LoS like Wilson does and then chucking one up when a WR finally shakes loose.  Hurts runs often for a QB, but doesn't scramble that much.  He tucks and runs.  DIFFERENCE.  His running has helped to make him an average QB at this point, IMO.  Without it he is below average due to 2 factors:

A-He doesn't see/read enough of the field or process it quickly enough to make a quick decision on where to go with the ball, or.....

B-He doesn't have the required arm strength to throw low trajectory passes with enough zip to get into tight windows only open for 1-2 seconds (thus the lack of throws to the middle of the field when we have 2 TEs that are supposed to be quite good).

Though, it could also be a bit of both.  This was demonstrated with a couple of the deep balls he tried to throw where he was either late diagnosing the WR getting behind the DBs and getting ball out on time so that the DBs couldn't catch up and make a play or he took a crow hop or two instead of planting his back foot and letting it rip because he needed enough momentum to throw it that far, thus he got the ball out late and the passes fell incomplete.

Maybe he works on his mechanics so he can plant and rip it downfield without the crow hops and maybe the more he plays the more the game slows down for him and his reads/decisions become quicker and better?  We don't know at this point.  I think what most of us on the EMB want to see from him is progression and improvement in playing the QB position.  Right now he hasn't played enough games to make that determination.  But through 2 games, he hasn't shown much more than his 4 game stint of last season, either.  I think most of us are willing to give him more games/time to show us something, but if by late in the season it's still the same ol' same  ol' then Minshew would be a better placeholder. 

 

[MillerTime]

Jalen Hurts in 6 games has 1515 passing. No 2nd half against WFT but a 2nd half against GB last year

Averages 252.5 yards a game. With the original 16 game season he would throw for 4040 yards. That’s good for a 1st year QB.

Using same formula he would rush for 1328 which is a lot. I’m not disagreeing that its sustainable. I think he develops and his passing yards a game go up 50 and his running yards go down 50. Remember it’s only 6 games with a no offseason mess last year. He also has had 6 different play callers in 6 years since college.

But overall he would account for 5368 total yards in a 16 game season. That’s dual threat in my eyes. 

[MF POON]

10 minutes ago, Green_Guinness said:

Even though he's put up more yards than the other QBs he's being compared to, I think you also need to take into account that today's game is different even when compared to when Wilson was in his 1st/2nd season.  The rules have changed since then to more favour the O and the WRs.  It's a passing league now more so than ever and the powers that be have set it up to be so.  Thus any comparison of passing yards has to be taken with a grain or two of salt.

IMO, he relies too much on his legs and his running to gain yardage as opposed to doing what Wilson does in using his legs to buy time to still try and throw the ball.  That doesn't mean I want him running around 10-20 yards behind the LoS like Wilson does and then chucking one up when a WR finally shakes loose.  Hurts runs often for a QB, but doesn't scramble that much.  He tucks and runs.  DIFFERENCE.  His running has helped to make him an average QB at this point, IMO.  Without it he is below average due to 2 factors:

A-He doesn't see/read enough of the field or process it quickly enough to make a quick decision on where to go with the ball, or.....

B-He doesn't have the required arm strength to throw low trajectory passes with enough zip to get into tight windows only open for 1-2 seconds (thus the lack of throws to the middle of the field when we have 2 TEs that are supposed to be quite good).

Though, it could also be a bit of both.  This was demonstrated with a couple of the deep balls he tried to throw where he was either late diagnosing the WR getting behind the DBs and getting ball out on time so that the DBs couldn't catch up and make a play or he took a crow hop or two instead of planting his back foot and letting it rip because he needed enough momentum to throw it that far, thus he got the ball out late and the passes fell incomplete.

Maybe he works on his mechanics so he can plant and rip it downfield without the crow hops and maybe the more he plays the more the game slows down for him and his reads/decisions become quicker and better?  We don't know at this point.  I think what most of us on the EMB want to see from him is progression and improvement in playing the QB position.  Right now he hasn't played enough games to make that determination.  But through 2 games, he hasn't shown much more than his 4 game stint of last season, either.  I think most of us are willing to give him more games/time to show us something, but if by late in the season it's still the same ol' same  ol' then Minshew would be a better placeholder. 

 

He made that argument too, and it still fails because Wilson, and Jackson have always played in the same passing league. it's not like the league just became this way last season, it's been this way for quite some time now. There's other holes in his argument, but I don't care to be a broken record.

Honestly, the rest of what you're going on about is something we can assess once he plays a full season. We can then go over strengths and weaknesses to point out where he needs to improve.  The guy has played a total of 6 games, and you're already saying "Minshew might be the better option if he doesn't improve by late season,"  and I'm not sure you're even aware of how ridiculous that sounds...  As if we don't have plenty of tape on Gardner Minshew being a failure in Jacksonville. This is the same guy that isn't good enough to be Jax's backup, yet he's somehow worthy of being our starter? 

Also, If we had only given Wentz 14 or so games to prove his worth, he'd have never done what he did in 2017 and he wouldn't have so many homers on this board.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MF POON said:

No, it's that Mike is foolishly trying to make the argument that Hurts sucks because he's just a running QB.

I never said he sucks, he needs to improve as a passer.  52% is not good enough.  Dropping to 47% in the second half is not good enough.  Not being able to throw the deep ball without a perfect base is not good enough.  Not using the entire middle of the field is not good enough.

Currently, he is a runner who needs to become a significantly better passer.

The next QB who wins a Super Bowl with running being his best skill will be the first.

[MF POON]

1 minute ago, downundermike said:

I never said he sucks, he needs to improve as a passer.  52% is not good enough.  Dropping to 47% in the second half is not good enough.  Not being able to throw the deep ball without a perfect base is not good enough.  Not using the entire middle of the field is not good enough.

Currently, he is a runner who needs to become a significantly better passer.

The next QB who wins a Super Bowl with running being his best skill will be the first.

You're just making the same foolish argument. He's not just a running qb. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, MF POON said:

You're just making the same foolish argument. He's not just a running qb. 

Until he is a significantly better passer, that is exactly what he is.

You better hope he does not get housed by the Cowboys again, or it is gonna get worse.

[highboy]

1 hour ago, MF POON said:

No, it's that Mike is foolishly trying to make the argument that Hurts sucks because he's just a running QB.  What he's also conveniently left out is that Hurts has averaged more passing yards in his first 6 starts than those he's been compared to as well.  So which is it, is he just a running QB, or is he a dual threat? If it's the former, the stats say otherwise.  

That's the point. He cherry picked a very specific set of statistics and says "this is the standard" based on totally arbitrary criteria. 

[Bwestbrook36]

37 minutes ago, MillerTime said:

Jalen Hurts in 6 games has 1515 passing. No 2nd half against WFT but a 2nd half against GB last year

Averages 252.5 yards a game. With the original 16 game season he would throw for 4040 yards. That’s good for a 1st year QB.

Using same formula he would rush for 1328 which is a lot. I’m not disagreeing that its sustainable. I think he develops and his passing yards a game go up 50 and his running yards go down 50. Remember it’s only 6 games with a no offseason mess last year. He also has had 6 different play callers in 6 years since college.

But overall he would account for 5368 total yards in a 16 game season. That’s dual threat in my eyes. 

Sure he is getting the yards throwing but, he isn't getting then efficiently... Right now after 6 games he is throwing at a 56% completion percentage... Last season it was 52%. This year he had the big game against Atlanta then came back down to  another 52% completion percentage against the niners. When half your passes are going incomplete I don't give a sheet how many yards you have when it takes you 25 completions on 50 throws to get you to 300 yards it's a problem. 

He won't have any consistency if he completes passes at such a low percentage. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, highboy said:

That's the point. He cherry picked a very specific set of statistics and says "this is the standard" based on totally arbitrary criteria. 

I didn't cherry pick anything.  He has the highest career average rushing yards of all QB's.  He has the second most rushing  yards through 6 starts of all QB's.

 

3 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Sure he is getting the yards throwing but, he isn't getting then efficiently... Right now after 6 games he is throwing at a 56% completion percentage... Last season it was 52%. This year he had the big game against Atlanta then came back down to  another 52% completion percentage against the niners. When half your passes are going incomplete I don't give a sheet how many yards you have when it takes you 25 completions on 50 throws to get you to 300 yards it's a problem. 

He won't have any consistency if he completes passes at such a low percentage. 

While not throwing passes to 32% of the field.