How anybody could have a problem with BG is beyond me. Yes, it's definitely a passing league now, but that doesn't mean the run game is completely inconsequential. And he's one of the best at stopping the run. And has been the whole time he's been here. He produces a good pass rush, not great, but good enough. He's versatile enough to rotate inside on passing downs. His "numbers" took a hit when Chip tried to convert him to a 3-4 LB. The microfracture surgery was also an issue.

But otherwise, he's been healthy, dependable, a team leader, and by all accounts we see, just a great human being and good guy. The cherry on top of his whole career was the strip sack that won this team a Super Bowl. I would take 53 Brandon Grahams everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. To complain he's not "good enough" for the selection is just asinine. 

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

How anybody could have a problem with BG is beyond me. Yes, it's definitely a passing league now, but that doesn't mean the run game is completely inconsequential. And he's one of the best at stopping the run. And has been the whole time he's been here. He produces a good pass rush, not great, but good enough. He's versatile enough to rotate inside on passing downs. His "numbers" took a hit when Chip tried to convert him to a 3-4 LB. The microfracture surgery was also an issue.

But otherwise, he's been healthy, dependable, a team leader, and by all accounts we see, just a great human being and good guy. The cherry on top of his whole career was the strip sack that won this team a Super Bowl. I would take 53 Brandon Grahams everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. To complain he's not "good enough" for the selection is just asinine. 

I don't think anyone was saying they have a "problem" with BG, it was just a production vs. draft position argument, but I agree with your overall sentiment.

By any measure, and multiple measures, he was a fantastic draft pick and all time great Eagle.  I say that as someone who was incensed they did not take Earl Thomas there, and was disappointed in him for years (especially when comparing him to what Thomas became and what the Eagles needed with Dawkins departure).  BG just kept getting better and has been terrific in every sense.  He's the player you love rooting for and you hope stays around the team for the rest of his life when he is done playing.

16 minutes ago, austinfan said:

Hughes was a pass rush specialist, Graham is one of the top run stoppers at DE through out his career.

No one would take Hughes over BG. Not even close. And Graham once he got healthy was among the top guys in overall pressure, sacks are sexy, but any DC will tell you the real key to a pass rush is moving the QB from his "Sweet spot" and forcing him to get rid of the ball early before plays develop. A lot of sackmeisters sell out for the sack and lose containment or get ridden out of the play.

I didn't say I would take Hughes over BG.  I'm looking at draft value vs. production.  

I realize that there is much more to a DE than sacks and that BG is a heckuva run stopping DE.  When just looking at stats, I associate TFL with run defense, and for the hype BG gets for it he only has 20ish more TFL than Hughes, a supposed pass rush specialist. 

 

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

This is EXACTLY why we need to trade back. There is no "center piece" at 12. This is also why I didnt want Pitts at 6. (I dont think a TE can be a center piece, or a TE that early is worth it)

If we can get a 25ish pick this year, a 3rd this year and a first next year which is the going rate for a trade like that it should be a no brainer. 

I agree I don't think one is going to get a center piece player at 12.

Though trading down to 25 might be a bit much.

 

1 minute ago, Utebird said:

I agree I don't think one is going to get a center piece player at 12.

Though trading down to 25 might be a bit much.

 

Yeah 12 to 25 goes from gamble to total crapshoot (especially with Howie at the helm)

My biggest refrain going into this draft is, "Anybody but Alijah Vera-Tucker."

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

This is EXACTLY why we need to trade back. There is no "center piece" at 12. This is also why I didnt want Pitts at 6. (I dont think a TE can be a center piece, or a TE that early is worth it)

If we can get a 25ish pick this year, a 3rd this year and a first next year which is the going rate for a trade like that it should be a no brainer. 

Disagree strongly with this.  The owner and "GM" are terrible at evaluating and making draft decisions.  The Eagles are badly in need of difference makers, or at least strong starters they can build around.  There may not be a true "center piece" at 12, but the bar here is very low.  At 12, they are much more likely to take a good player.  Many years picking in the 20s you miss out on the few stud CBs, for example, that go a little higher.  How many strong and even great CBs get drafted in that 10-20 range?  Going from 12 to say 25 could be the difference between getting a very good starting CB and getting one that is marginal, or someone at another position with much less impact.

I understand the potential relative value available at 6 vs. 12 and the compensation and decision making involved to go from 6 to 12.  I don't think they should push back any further before making a pick.  Of course, depending on how the draft falls, there could be an opportunity for minor maneuvering, but in each of the upcoming drafts they need enough high picks for more chances at taking someone who does become a true difference maker.  Last time they picked at 12 they got a franchise cornerstone.  

6 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

How anybody could have a problem with BG is beyond me. Yes, it's definitely a passing league now, but that doesn't mean the run game is completely inconsequential. And he's one of the best at stopping the run. And has been the whole time he's been here. He produces a good pass rush, not great, but good enough. He's versatile enough to rotate inside on passing downs. His "numbers" took a hit when Chip tried to convert him to a 3-4 LB. The microfracture surgery was also an issue.

But otherwise, he's been healthy, dependable, a team leader, and by all accounts we see, just a great human being and good guy. The cherry on top of his whole career was the strip sack that won this team a Super Bowl. I would take 53 Brandon Grahams everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. To complain he's not "good enough" for the selection is just asinine. 

If this is referring to my post, do people not read the entire post?  I clearly stated that I love BG and think he's an all-time great Eagle.  

The conversation I was starting was production vs. draft position.  It's not a slight against BG at all. It's looking at the overall big picture of the draft.

They just didn't draft BG, they traded 2 3rd round picks to get him.  

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

In order to get that 1st, 3rd, 1st I think thats where we need to be. That also allowes a playoff team to jump up and grab what they feel is the "last piece" or a guy to push them over the edge. 

Example... Titans from 22 to jump up and get Devonte Smith at 12, a true outside threat would be ideal. Also feel the same way about Cardinals at 21 moving up to get Parsons or the Browns for Parsons. 

 

I just don't trust Howie to know what to do with any of the picks no matter where they are.

Seems Howie knows how to play the value game and work a draft and move up and down and he definitely has the fire power with the most draft picks to do so and still though he seems to know how to move evaluate point value in a draft he doesn't seem to know how to identify the talent associated with the point value of that draft slot.

52 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I keep hearing from posters that Kwitty Paye isn't explosive yet his testing numbers and the tape say otherwise.

Dude ran a 4.5 at 260 holds the record for fastest ever 3 cone for DL benched 36 vert of 35.5 broad of 9"10 those are all explosive numbers and on tape he explodes out of his stance and shows impressive closing speed and he explodes into his hits.

He's not an average athlete who gets by on technique and effort or over whelming size.

He's a plus athlete with a high motor and pretty solid technique not to mention a high character guy that is also a academic all american.

Some of his cons are he's only 6'2" and I believe he's 23 years old or will be and he doesn't have like alot of players this draft not as much production due to truncated season.

His pros though are that he's an explosive edge who also plays the run well.

I like him at 12 if he's there though I think 12 may be a bit high for him then again I think in this draft 12 might be a bit high for any one available there.

 

There isn’t any possible draft scenario where Paye isn’t a horrible selection at #12.  Howie would be receiving death threats if he makes that pick.  

6 minutes ago, John_C said:

Disagree strongly with this.  The owner and "GM" are terrible at evaluating and making draft decisions.  The Eagles are badly in need of difference makers, or at least strong starters they can build around.  There may not be a true "center piece" at 12, but the bar here is very low.  At 12, they are much more likely to take a good player.  Many years picking in the 20s you miss out on the few stud CBs, for example, that go a little higher.  How many strong and even great CBs get drafted in that 10-20 range?  Going from 12 to say 25 could be the difference between getting a very good starting CB and getting one that is marginal, or someone at another position with much less impact.

I understand the potential relative value available at 6 vs. 12 and the compensation and decision making involved to go from 6 to 12.  I don't think they should push back any further before making a pick.  Of course, depending on how the draft falls, there could be an opportunity for minor maneuvering, but in each of the upcoming drafts they need enough high picks for more chances at taking someone who does become a true difference maker.  Last time they picked at 12 they got a franchise cornerstone.  

This is why Howie better hope he's 100% right that Pitts and Chase go 4-5.  

If one of or both of them are at 6 the trade is a failure from day 1 IMO.  Both of those players are huge difference makers and he walked away from them based on his "league knowledge",

I think the difference in talent from 12-20 isn't that big of a gap and if you can get another 3rd I'm all for it.

2 minutes ago, John_C said:

At 12, they are much more likely to take a good player.  Many years picking in the 20s you miss out on the few stud CBs, for example, that go a little higher.  How many strong and even great CBs get drafted in that 10-20 range?  Going from 12 to say 25 could be the difference between getting a very good starting CB and getting one that is marginal, or someone at another position with much less impact.

 

10-20 is often the CB sweetspot. 

• 2020: Terrell (16)
• 2019: None
• 2018: Fitzpatrick (11), Alexander (18)
• 2017: Lattimore (11), Humphrey (16), Jackson (18)
• 2016: None
• 2015: Johnson (16), Peters (18)
• 2014: Fuller (14)

You can get all-pros/Pro Bowlers at 12 at CB...

1 minute ago, bpac55 said:

If this is referring to my post, do people not read the entire post?  I clearly stated that I love BG and think he's an all-time great Eagle.  

The conversation I was starting was production vs. draft position.  It's not a slight against BG at all. It's looking at the overall big picture of the draft.

They just didn't draft BG, they traded 2 3rd round picks to get him.  

Let me state it plainly for you. I would take a BG type career every time for what it cost to draft him. Those picks ended up being:

#13: multiple trades:

#13: San Francisco → Denver (D). See #11: Denver → San Francisco above.

#13: Denver → Philadelphia (D). Denver traded this selection it acquired from San Francisco to Philadelphia for a first-round selection (24th overall; after all trades, Dallas selected Dez Bryant), a third-round selection it acquired from Seattle (70th overall; traded to Baltimore, who selected Ed Dickson), and a third-round selection (87th overall; Denver selected Eric Decker).^{[source 4]}

Again, I'd take BG for that price everyday. The emphasis on day 2 and 3 draft picks sometimes swings too much. In no uncertain terms, I believe BG was 100% "worthy" of his draft slot and the price that was paid for him. Again, to nitpick that, to me, is asinine, even if you want to try and qualify it that you "love" him. 

 

 

1 minute ago, Alphagrand said:

There isn’t any possible draft scenario where Paye isn’t a horrible selection at #12.  Howie would be receiving death threats if he makes that pick.  

Why who else at 12 is head an shoulders above Paye? it's not like he's some scrub player or drafting him at 12 would be a huge reach, most mocks have him going highest at 10 and no lower than 15, which seems about right for him and most available players in that range.

Unless chase drops to 12 there will be a bunch of guys at 12 with very similar grades and it will just come down to team preference.

If howie doesn't love any of the player at 12 then trade down.

If they love Paye or horn or smith or waddle or say Parsons then pull the trigger.

 

22 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

How anybody could have a problem with BG is beyond me. Yes, it's definitely a passing league now, but that doesn't mean the run game is completely inconsequential. And he's one of the best at stopping the run. And has been the whole time he's been here. He produces a good pass rush, not great, but good enough. He's versatile enough to rotate inside on passing downs. His "numbers" took a hit when Chip tried to convert him to a 3-4 LB. The microfracture surgery was also an issue.

But otherwise, he's been healthy, dependable, a team leader, and by all accounts we see, just a great human being and good guy. The cherry on top of his whole career was the strip sack that won this team a Super Bowl. I would take 53 Brandon Grahams everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. To complain he's not "good enough" for the selection is just asinine. 

Who has a problem with him?

1 minute ago, greend said:

Who has a problem with him?

People complaining that his career production isn't good enough for where he was taken in the draft. 

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

People complaining that his career production isn't good enough for where he was taken in the draft. 

Okay, I thought you were referring to my post.

5 minutes ago, RLC said:

10-20 is often the CB sweetspot. 

• 2020: Terrell (16)
• 2019: None
• 2018: Fitzpatrick (11), Alexander (18)
• 2017: Lattimore (11), Humphrey (16), Jackson (18)
• 2016: None
• 2015: Johnson (16), Peters (18)
• 2014: Fuller (14)

You can get all-pros/Pro Bowlers at 12 at CB...

Pro bowl corners are great yet not necessary for winning super bowls.

Eagles won with zero pro bowl corners and the least amount of money allocated to Corner.

Chiefs won with average corners.

Bucs 3 starting corners were two second rounders and a 3 rounder.

The leagues rules put corners at a distinct disadvantage and as such I think smart teams have figured out that dumping alot of  resources into corner is fighting an uphill battle.

I think there will be plenty of good corners in the 2nd and 3rdround use that first round pick on a position that makes more of a difference in winning.

190? That's skinny for someone who plays like Bateman.

Just now, RLC said:

190? That's skinny for someone who plays like Bateman.

I predict he runs a 4.38😁

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

2018, Edmunds. 28

2017, Tre-davious white(27) Jabrill Peppers, 25th) 

2016, William Jackson

2015 Byron Jones, 

 

Hmmm... sounds like you can get some in the 20s too 

 

Some of those guys are safeties but yeah, and I tend to value safeties higher than corners as safeties can do multiple things for a defense where as corners are more one dimensional. Especially if one has a safety like malcolm jenkins who can play in multiple spots and do alot of things.

Just now, Bacarty2 said:

BG is a flop. (this is also  my Kyle Pitts Theory)

If BG was a 2nd rounder, or 3rd round it would be an amazing pick. 

But with how deep that 2010 draft was, where he was selected and what he's done, it's a flop. 

I mean I love him. love what he brings, but ya, that wasnt a good pick

Wrong. 

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

Let me state it plainly for you. I would take a BG type career every time for what it cost to draft him. Those picks ended up being:

#13: multiple trades:

#13: San Francisco → Denver (D). See #11: Denver → San Francisco above.

#13: Denver → Philadelphia (D). Denver traded this selection it acquired from San Francisco to Philadelphia for a first-round selection (24th overall; after all trades, Dallas selected Dez Bryant), a third-round selection it acquired from Seattle (70th overall; traded to Baltimore, who selected Ed Dickson), and a third-round selection (87th overall; Denver selected Eric Decker).^{[source 4]}

Again, I'd take BG for that price everyday. The emphasis on day 2 and 3 draft picks sometimes swings too much. In no uncertain terms, I believe BG was 100% "worthy" of his draft slot and the price that was paid for him. Again, to nitpick that, to me, is asinine, even if you want to try and qualify it that you "love" him. 

 

 

I know who they were, I had all that information in my post.  

We can all hate Dez Bryant but he was a 3 time Pro Bowl WR, 1st team All-Pro once.  75 career TD

Decker was as solid as a number 2 WR as you could find.  53 career TD

Ed Dickson was a TE playing in the wrong era.  He was before his time.  He would thrive in today's game, I always liked what he brought and he would have been a solid TE2.

Now the argument here is during that time frame, the Eagles had DJack, Maclin, Avant, Cooper and Celek so those were positions that we didn't need.

 

However, the argument is draft value.

BG- Very solid career 1 Pro Bowl (played via PS5), Super Bowl Champion

-OR-

Dez Bryant- 3 Pro Bowl, 1 1st team AP 75 career TD

Eric Decker- 53 career TD

Ed Dickson- TE2, 15 career TD

Again, I'm not saying I want those players over BG...let me repeat, I'm not claiming the Eagles never should have taken BG or that I want Dez Bryant over him.

 

8 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

People complaining that his career production isn't good enough for where he was taken in the draft. 

Again,  comparing production vs his draft position is not me saying I have a problem with BG.

Goodness.  

4 minutes ago, Bacarty2 said:

This!

If you pay XXX,XXX amount on a car your expectations are different then you spending X,xxx on a car. 

BG in the 3rd, or late 2nd, it's a AMAZING pick

him at 13...meh 

Are you really going to die on this hill? It was a great pick and was good value.