18 hours ago, justrelax said:

@BigEFly and @NCiggles

John Quincy Adams is a hero of mine, big-time. I consider him one of the greatest public servants we've ever had and one of the most influential. I was aware of him, as any history buff would be, but not to the degree it is now. He has a major part in the Amistad business, which is part and parcel of what Arguing About Slavery covers. When you mentioned the Smithsonian, I missed my chance to state that, without Mr. Adams, there would be no Smithsonian.

James Smithson, an Englishman, left his fortune, with a brief sidetrack,to the US to "to found in Washington, under the name of the Smithsonian Institution, an establishment for the increase and diffusion of knowledge among men." That money was promptly rerouted to corrupt Southern politicians until Adams stepped in. It took a few years but he forced the thieves to restore the money for its original purpose. There's a lot of documentation on this whole business, should it strike your fancy.

Just one more reason to love J.Q. Adams who, as with all of the Adamses, was difficult to like - irascible, sarcastic, always thought he was the smartest guy in the room (and was usually right) -  but impossible to ignore. He became a Congressman after being president, and did not in any way consider it beneath him. Rather, he thought it an honor and an obligation, that he embraced. 

If you've seen Amistad, the Spielberg film, that's Anthony Hopkins as Adams. Hopkins had it right, he was famous for having his feet up.

It's always been interesting to me how Adams has been portrayed in contrast to Jackson.  It seemed like the story I learned was of Jackson as the first populist president who had the 1824 election stolen from him by Adams.  Jackson's  platform was railing against corruption, fighting for the rights of western states.  Adams, in turn, was an elite who benefited from nepotism and corruption.  

1 hour ago, bpac55 said:

Growing up I had heard about Ted Bundy (I'm 38) but had no idea what he actually did.  That series was fascinating.  Women KNEW he was a killer and still were infatuated with the guy.  He was truly sick.  It's also so interesting to me to see the change in how news traveled, technology and so much over the last 40-50 years.  Really worth watching to learn about what happened.  Creepy as heck to hear him start talking in the 3rd person to confess.  Gives you chills for sure.

Dude was crazy, crazy like a Fox.

There are a few bundy films circulating right now.

The one with zach efron is good especially if one has already watched the bundy tapes.  And there is also one told by bundys girlfriend its a captivating watch

Also there is a recent movie about jeffrey Dahmer.

Called my friend dahmer.

Written by one of Dahmers high school " friends" now that dude was creepy.

 

 

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I am all for peaceful demonstrations, boycotts, loud chanting, angry signs, letter writing campaigns, door to door solicitation of signatures on petitions, campaigning for new elected officials, change to law enforcement protocols and the like.

I am fully against arson, vandalism, assault, destruction of property, looting, and the like.   

Violence as an answer to violence does not change minds or hearts.  Change can only happen one mind and one heart at a time.  And in those situations, I agree... it's the conversation over the table with relatives... with friends who step too far over the line... those hard conversations that need to be had.  But, only when those dialogues are had without anger aimed at the recipient can any advancement be made. 

But changed policies don't change hearts.... changed hearts change policies... changed hearts change societies.

If my child or loved one was murdered by the police, I would seriously consider going to their house and burning it down to the ground.  Such is my faith in the civil and criminal justice system's ability to hold the perpetrator accountable.  

53 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

You all did a nice job with my post this morning.  No one got too wild in here. Im impressed. 

I put it on ignore. 

 

1 hour ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I am all for peaceful demonstrations, boycotts, loud chanting, angry signs, letter writing campaigns, door to door solicitation of signatures on petitions, campaigning for new elected officials, change to law enforcement protocols and the like.

I am fully against arson, vandalism, assault, destruction of property, looting, and the like.   

Violence as an answer to violence does not change minds or hearts.  Change can only happen one mind and one heart at a time.  And in those situations, I agree... it's the conversation over the table with relatives... with friends who step too far over the line... those hard conversations that need to be had.  But, only when those dialogues are had without anger aimed at the recipient can any advancement be made. 

But changed policies don't change hearts.... changed hearts change policies... changed hearts change societies.

Well said.  Hearts do change sometimes.  

18 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

It's always been interesting to me how Adams has been portrayed in contrast to Jackson.  It seemed like the story I learned was of Jackson as the first populist president who had the 1824 election stolen from him by Adams.  Jackson's  platform was railing against corruption, fighting for the rights of western states.  Adams, in turn, was an elite who benefited from nepotism and corruption.  

The irony here is that it was Jackson who institutionalized corruption with the Spoils System. What Adams did with Henry Clay was offer him the Secretary of State post in exchange for his support. There were four candidates and none had a majority. Clay, with the fewest votes, was excluded from the run-off, which was limited to the top three.

38 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

You think Wentz will take the receivers to ND now that states are opening up? Would love for him to build chemistry with the receivers ASAP

Yea I think with all the new faces, it's something he needs to do.  And probably will.  Maybe not in ND though.

 

8 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

They do exist!!!!

 

 

funny how one picture can get a song stuck in your head😡

36 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

 

if fewer folks are allowed in stadiums this year, given how popular the NFL is, wouldn't TV rights become more valuable?  I think the NFL could get more money there to offset some/all of direct stadium losses?    Just curious on if that could actually work in favor of the NFL.

On a different note COVID cases saw a spike in Dallas today, don't think (know) the protests had something to do with it as I read somewhere the incubation period is several days / up to 2 weeks?

2 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I am all for peaceful demonstrations, boycotts, loud chanting, angry signs, letter writing campaigns, door to door solicitation of signatures on petitions, campaigning for new elected officials, change to law enforcement protocols and the like.

I am fully against arson, vandalism, assault, destruction of property, looting, and the like.   

Violence as an answer to violence does not change minds or hearts.  Change can only happen one mind and one heart at a time.  And in those situations, I agree... it's the conversation over the table with relatives... with friends who step too far over the line... those hard conversations that need to be had.  But, only when those dialogues are had without anger aimed at the recipient can any advancement be made. 

But changed policies don't change hearts.... changed hearts change policies... changed hearts change societies.

Well said. 

id also add I am all for protests As well.  I think they’re some things with Associated protests that are concerning to me (not the protests themselves). For starters protests are a way of getting a major issue into the spotlight on a national or global scale and to ignite conversation about it so that hopefully we take the next steps of working together to try to resolve the issue or make people come together to understand and hopefully change some hearts so we can then go out and change somethings in our society with our policies.

I think there’s misconception with a lot of people that doing a protest means it instantly changes since they are protesting and they don’t have to do anything else. like it Is the last resort and step to achieving that change. some people protest and then once the protests are done say well i did my part and just go back to their daily lives. My personal opinion protests should be steppingstones to going out, discuss civil with one another and then trying to solve the issue at hand by working together. It’s not going to change if you stop at just protesting Especially cause in the society we live in we are very quick to forget and move onto something else. Need to take the next steps so we can change some hearts and get where we want to be as a society. 

also i think there’s a small percentage that says well Peaceful protests didn’t work so now we move to violence. If our only two solutions are peaceful then violence we have failed as a country to evolve for the better. Our forefathers founded this country so we could have it better for all and It is our job as we add to our history to advance it for the better. So when I hear people supporting tactics from 244 years ago or 247 when people bring up the Boston tea party it is really sad in my eyes. So in 247 years we have not evolved to find better solutions to issues then Peaceful protest didn’t work and so it goes to reverting to violence? I’d like to teach my kid and the next generation who follows after we are all gone that we can be better and find much better options/solutions for a better future. I want them to know using their brain and working side by side can make as big if not bigger changes then violence get my point across and get change. 

that said I am also mortified and disgusted by the hate in this country I see on Facebook or twitter or Instagram and the murder of the 3 innocent African Americans in the last 3 months . (And some of it is between people who considered friends— the hate flowing on Facebook and Instagram). my family Members survived the holocaust and I thought that alone would have opened enough eyes and taught the world it is unacceptable for that type of hatred to exist ever again. But you still see some of that same hatred today with race or antisemitism or hate towards Muslims. i never could understand what someone a person of color or a Muslim man/woman after 9/11 has gone through on a daily basis. But I have sympathy based off my family’s past and things I endured as a Jew growing up and still some of the things said to me today to want them not to have to feel the way my ancestors and I have. 

sorry for the long rant. 

13 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

funny how one picture can get a song stuck in your head😡

Mostly reminds me of one blowhard who is a sexual predator, and one punching bag the Bruins used to have 

56 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

If my child or loved one was murdered by the police, I would seriously consider going to their house and burning it down to the ground.  Such is my faith in the civil and criminal justice system's ability to hold the perpetrator accountable.  

I understand that sentiment... but vigilante justice is not justice either.  

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I understand that sentiment... but vigilante justice is not justice either.  

Of course, but multiple states have the death penalty. "Eye for an eye" is justice?

59 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

 

Sounds like they are acting smarter than MLB where it sounds like minor league teams are in dire straights and they have let go a bunch of players. 

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I understand that sentiment... but vigilante justice is not justice either.  

True. It's vengeance. There's that line about digging two graves.

6 minutes ago, RLC said:

Of course, but multiple states have the death penalty. "Eye for an eye" is justice?

Yes.  Amendments #5 and #14 - Due Process... Jury of your peers... etc. etc.  etc.   Vigilantism is not justice.  That's not to say that the 'system' is perfect or any such thing... but, taking the law into one's own hands, while it may be emotionally fulfilling in the moment, it is not truly justice, even if the outcome is what the vigilante believes is appropriate.   The Hatfields and the McCoys engaged in quite a bit of vigilantism... but it was far from justice.

6 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Sounds like they are acting smarter than MLB where it sounds like minor league teams are in dire straights and they have let go a bunch of players. 

MLB is a disaster, although they also got hit hard with bad timing. The NFL is fortunate to have the time to hopefully and potentially iron out any issues 

1 hour ago, NCiggles said:

 

If my child or loved one was murdered by the police, I would seriously consider going to their house and burning it down to the ground.  Such is my faith in the civil and criminal justice system's ability to hold the perpetrator accountable.  

I put it on ignore. 

I think we all would be of that mindset and angry as raw emotions  I think human nature of emotions any one of us would have that feeling especially with some of the justice systems failures over time added on.

One of the answers I carry with me today from my Great grandmother was when she talked about life after being liberated from concentration camp. She was Extremely depressed by all that she lost and saw, happy to somehow still alive and vengeance in her heart. She knew friends who turned their back on her family and knew the atrocities that went on but stood by doing nothing and reaped benefits of it (i think some were scared to do anything for their lives but a lot just went with it cause it didn’t effect them besides friendships lost). Only reason why she didn’t go to them after and just lose it on them (she meant bring violence) is because if you do that then they are going to portray you in the light they want to then use it against you for the next 40-50 years to downplay the real atrocity. Instead she just continued to bring to light how disgusting and gross Those people were and people saw the truth. As fulfilling as I’m guessing it would have been for her In the moment of doing so she had the mindset that it didn’t outweigh the injustice of how it would’ve been used against her and her people.  

18 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yes.  Amendments #5 and #14 - Due Process... Jury of your peers... etc. etc.  etc.   Vigilantism is not justice.  That's not to say that the 'system' is perfect or any such thing... but, taking the law into one's own hands, while it may be emotionally fulfilling in the moment, it is not truly justice, even if the outcome is what the vigilante believes is appropriate.   The Hatfields and the McCoys engaged in quite a bit of vigilantism... but it was far from justice.

Legality and morality aren't the same thing. 
Slavery was legal and immoral, now it's illegal and immoral. The same concept can apply to the death penalty.

15 minutes ago, RLC said:

Legality and morality aren't the same thing. 
Slavery was legal and immoral, now it's illegal and immoral. The same concept can apply to the death penalty.

That's a very different debate.  Don't equate vigilantism with the death penalty after a proper trial by a jury of one's peers.  You can be anti-death penalty without that false equivalency.  

48 minutes ago, RLC said:

Of course, but multiple states have the death penalty. "Eye for an eye" is justice?

I believe that it is. But I believe a man tried in a court of law is justice not me deciding on my own that you did it and taking matters into my own hands

1 minute ago, greend said:

I believe that it is. But I believe a man tried in a court of law is justice not me deciding on my own that you did it and taking matters into my own hands

Exactly.   And that's not to say that our courts are perfect.

11 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

That's a very different debate.  Don't equate vigilantism with the death penalty after a proper trial by a jury of one's peers.  You can be anti-death penalty without that false equivalency.  

What's more just: A vigilante killing a murderer, or the death penalty killing an innocent man?

Justice is complex.