April 23Apr 23 "handed over to Russia without a shot being fired? "Nope not a single shot. The conflict in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, starting in 2014, resulted in over 14,000 deaths, including over 2,000 reported Russian troop deaths. The United Nations estimated that by January 2015, over 5,000 people had been killed, with that number rising to over 9,000 and more than 20,000 wounded by the end of the year due to frequent truce violations
April 24Apr 24 What Russia gets under Trump's proposal"De jure" U.S. recognition of Russian control in Crimea."De-facto recognition" of the Russia's occupation of nearly all of Luhansk oblast and the occupied portions of Donetsk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.A promise that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO. The text notes that Ukraine could become part of the European Union.The lifting of sanctions imposed since 2014.Enhanced economic cooperation with the U.S., particularly in the energy and industrial sectors.Military control in the Russian invasion of UkraineAreas are approximate; As of April 19, 2025A map of Ukraine showing key cities, such as Kyiv, Bucha and Dnipro, and the approximate area of Russian-occupation.Russian-occupied Ukrainian territoryTerritory retaken by Ukraine since Sept. 1, 2022Area of Ukraine's advances into RussiaCity occupied by Russian forces© OpenStreetMap contributorsPOLANDROMANIAMOLDOVABELARUSRUSSIACrimeaKyivKharkivLvivOdesaChernihivDniproMariupol LysychanskData: ISW/CTP; Map: Axios VisualsWhat Ukraine gets under Trump's proposal"A robust security guarantee" involving an ad hoc group of European countries and potentially also like-minded non-European countries. The document is vague in terms of how this peacekeeping operation would function and does not mention any U.S. participation.The return of the small part of Kharkiv oblast Russia has occupied.Unimpeded passage of the Dnieper River, which runs along the front line in parts of southern Ukraine.Compensation and assistance for rebuilding, though the document does not say where the funding will come from.Other elements of the planThe Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant — the largest such facility in Europe — will be considered as Ukrainian territory but operated by the U.S., with electricity supplied to both Ukraine and Russia.The document references the U.S.-Ukraine minerals deal, which Trump has said will be signed on Thursday.The intrigue: The plan was drafted after Trump's envoy Steve Witkoff met with Putin for more than four hours last week.After the plan was presented, Putin offered to pause Russia's invasion along the current front lines as part of a potential deal, the FT reports.That's the biggest gesture from Putin so far to signal he's willing to make peace, but European officials remain skeptical.
April 24Apr 24 What a grand "deal” by the master of "Art of the deal”.🤦🏻Since it’s Draft Day, let’s put the stupidity of this deal into perspective.Dallas wants to get back into round 1 and offers the Birds a deal they can’t possibly refuse:Cowboys get our 1st, Saquon Barkley, AJ Brown, Jalen Carter and Jordan Mailata.Eagles get Punter Bryan Anger and a conditional 2025 seventh round pick, which could turn into a sixth round pick if the NY Giants get to decide who the Birds pick each round.Come on Howie, you can be just as smart as POTUS!😅
April 24Apr 24 @Frankfurteagle89 To me the key item would be the existence of a proper US backed security guarantee. Add that to this framework and I would be generally in favor. You would want to add a time frame on the NATO question along with immediate reversal should Russia violate the general agreement. From there, you could argue the details of the territory Russia would now be recognized as gaining but a strong case can be made to allow the basic framework lined out above IF AND ONLY IF a clear red line is drawn with regard to both NATO membership and US security defending that line going forward.
April 24Apr 24 Yeah, so Trump is kicking the can down the road to the next President. That's basically it.There's a couple of key things there. The first two are obvious, the third I didn't even think about, but the fact that it's even in there...The lifting of the sanctions, which will just allow Russia to re-arm to do this again. No mention of any peacekeeping force. One thing though that is super telling is the ZNPP. US run, but supplies power to both Russia and Ukraine. Why the F would this be in there? Well, Russia gets juice, and the infrastructure is repaired to get Ukraine the juice. Why would Russia care? That way in their heads when they try this again and they "succeed" (they won't), they don't have to make any CAPEX with getting the plant online and getting juice to the newly occupied territories.
April 24Apr 24 46 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:@Frankfurteagle89 To me the key item would be the existence of a proper US backed security guarantee. Add that to this framework and I would be generally in favor. You would want to add a time frame on the NATO question along with immediate reversal should Russia violate the general agreement. From there, you could argue the details of the territory Russia would now be recognized as gaining but a strong case can be made to allow the basic framework lined out above IF AND ONLY IF a clear red line is drawn with regard to both NATO membership and US security defending that line going forward.The security guarantee is a definite, which under the framework you agree with, must include NATO membership. NATO is already right on the Russian border due to Finland, so their fear of NATO getting too close to Russia is a moot point. There are various ideas / plans that could be talked about, but giving Putin everything is not acceptable to Ukraine or democratic Europe. Russia cannot be totally rewarded by starting this war. Sure, Ukraine will have to make some concessions (losing Crimea & maybe some discussions on how to deal with the other territories). It’s either or. If Ukraine has to give up most of the land, then they automatically become a NATO member. It’s gotta be some sort of trade off where both sides receive something. I don’t think that Russia should receive all the land the framework suggests. It’s just too rich IMO. It’s too bad Trump and his idiotic special envoy gave away the bank before real diplomacy even started.
April 24Apr 24 33 minutes ago, Bill said:Yeah, so Trump is kicking the can down the road to the next President. That's basically it.There's a couple of key things there. The first two are obvious, the third I didn't even think about, but the fact that it's even in there...The lifting of the sanctions, which will just allow Russia to re-arm to do this again.No mention of any peacekeeping force.One thing though that is super telling is the ZNPP. US run, but supplies power to both Russia and Ukraine. Why the F would this be in there? Well, Russia gets juice, and the infrastructure is repaired to get Ukraine the juice. Why would Russia care? That way in their heads when they try this again and they "succeed" (they won't), they don't have to make any CAPEX with getting the plant online and getting juice to the newly occupied territories.Trump kicking the can down the road was also my thought. He gives away everything that Putin wants and keeps him "quiet”. At the meantime, Russia rearms and plans for the next invasion (s) when Trump is gone. Russia basically just has to wait and can then strike when the US has been run into the ground. And the cherry on top is that the US is supposed to run / own the ZNPP. Always looking to make money and extract something from the needy. His greed is astronomical…
April 24Apr 24 2 hours ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:What a grand "deal” by the master of "Art of the deal”.🤦🏻Since it’s Draft Day, let’s put the stupidity of this deal into perspective.Dallas wants to get back into round 1 and offers the Birds a deal they can’t possibly refuse:Cowboys get our 1st, Saquon Barkley, AJ Brown, Jalen Carter and Jordan Mailata.Eagles get Punter Bryan Anger and a conditional 2025 seventh round pick, which could turn into a sixth round pick if the NY Giants get to decide who the Birds pick each round.Come on Howie, you can be just as smart as POTUS!😅Dude, this war is Ukraine's fault. They are lucky they are getting anything!!!
April 24Apr 24 1 hour ago, Bill said:The lifting of the sanctions, which will just allow Russia to re-arm to do this again.This part should be some sort of phased timeline based off of Russia behaving and meeting certain goals. They shouldn't get any relief whatsoever in the first phase, e.g. 12 months, and then thereafter only get a piece, e.g. 25% lifted.
April 24Apr 24 1 hour ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:The security guarantee is a definite, which under the framework you agree with, must include NATO membership. NATO is already right on the Russian border due to Finland, so their fear of NATO getting too close to Russia is a moot point. There are various ideas / plans that could be talked about, but giving Putin everything is not acceptable to Ukraine or democratic Europe.Russia cannot be totally rewarded by starting this war. Sure, Ukraine will have to make some concessions (losing Crimea & maybe some discussions on how to deal with the other territories). It’s either or. If Ukraine has to give up most of the land, then they automatically become a NATO member. It’s gotta be some sort of trade off where both sides receive something. I don’t think that Russia should receive all the land the framework suggests. It’s just too rich IMO.It’s too bad Trump and his idiotic special envoy gave away the bank before real diplomacy even started.The NATO membership is probably the one thing Putin won't agree to as his deal breaker which is why I'd be ok with the security agreement which is the key part for Ukraine in the NATO membership anyway AND the NATO membership question being put on hold for a period, say 15 years. Some in here think it is the same but it is not as there are other things that would happen beyond the security agreement should Ukraine become a formal NATO member.I think the territories that are recognized as Russian (beyond Crimea) could be part of the nuanced discussions which would include other things like the detailed plan to lift sanctions over time based on Russia behaving.
April 24Apr 24 57 minutes ago, paco said:Dude, this war is Ukraine's fault. They are lucky they are getting anything!!!Forgot all about that. Those dumb M’fers barked up the wrong tree. They poked the Russian Bear and he came to take what belongs to him.
April 24Apr 24 59 minutes ago, paco said:Dude, this war is Ukraine's fault. They are lucky they are getting anything!!!sure, be sarcastic about things, but just know, if ukriane had simply open it's borders like the dems did with ours, this wouldn't be happening, and our amazing leader could be more focused on caving to china.
April 24Apr 24 3 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! never before has an american president been so bold and brave as to call out a dictator for their actions.this is leadership.
April 24Apr 24 30 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:The NATO membership is probably the one thing Putin won't agree to as his deal breaker which is why I'd be ok with the security agreement which is the key part for Ukraine in the NATO membership anyway AND the NATO membership question being put on hold for a period, say 15 years. Some in here think it is the same but it is not as there are other things that would happen beyond the security agreement should Ukraine become a formal NATO member.I think the territories that are recognized as Russian (beyond Crimea) could be part of the nuanced discussions which would include other things like the detailed plan to lift sanctions over time based on Russia behaving.And why should Putin’s demands be the sole focus of any peace treaty. He won’t agree on Ukraine’s NATO membership?! Well, then he has to offer something else in return. Security guarantees would include what exactly?! US coal miners and some random European military advisers, who will check if Russia keeps their end of the bargain?If no NATO membership, then Russia should return all the territories (maybe with the exception of Crimea - which becomes demilitarized). Make Ukraine a neutral country and put in a demilitarized buffer zone in parts of the Eastern Territories.Russia shouldn’t get to keep all the land it illegally annexed and then also have a say in what the rest of Ukraine becomes. It’s just totally wrong and exactly what happened to Czechoslovakia with the German annexation of the Sudetenland. Most of us know how that compromise ended..We all want this war to end, but giving Putin everything is not going to solve the problem in the future. Signing off on almost total capitulation is not going to be acceptable to Ukraine, even if it means they fight on and lose more or all. At least they fought for their country and their freedom… something that old school Americans would also do and have done in the past.
April 24Apr 24 4 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:And why should Putin’s demands be the sole focus of any peace treaty. He won’t agree on Ukraine’s NATO membership?! Well, then he has to offer something else in return. Security guarantees would include what exactly?! US coal miners and some random European military advisers, who will check if Russia keeps their end of the bargain?I don't see anywhere that says "Putin's demands are the sole focus". I'm talking about the same level of security guarantee that comes with NATO membership. US providing a direct guarantee and then NATO signing on as well. That should be a deal breaker from our side in my mind.
April 24Apr 24 8 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:Russia shouldn’t get to keep all the land it illegally annexed and then also have a say in what the rest of Ukraine becomes. It’s just totally wrong and exactly what happened to Czechoslovakia with the German annexation of the Sudetenland. Most of us know how that compromise ended..I'm not saying Rusiia should get "all the land" but I'd be ok with a negotiated agreement that included a neutral zone and a part that Russia can keep.Russia would have nothing to say about Ukraine at all in my approach other than for a limited period where Ukraine can't formally join NATO (but none the less is fully protected by US/NATO).
April 24Apr 24 12 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:We all want this war to end, but giving Putin everything is not going to solve the problem in the future. Signing off on almost total capitulation is not going to be acceptable to Ukraine, even if it means they fight on and lose more or all. At least they fought for their country and their freedom… something that old school Americans would also do and have done in the past.Three choices in my mindkeep the status quo and let it grindNATO goes directly into the conflict to defeat Russiacompromise with Putin getting some things he wants and Ukraine getting a full on military security agreement with US/NATO ; I don't believe this option is possible without Russia getting Crimea, part of the territory they now occupy, and the lifting of sanctions over time
April 24Apr 24 4 minutes ago, DrPhilly said:I don't see anywhere that says "Putin's demands are the sole focus". I'm talking about the same level of security guarantee that comes with NATO membership. US providing a direct guarantee and then NATO signing on as well. That should be a deal breaker from our side in my mind.Didn’t want to say your take is that Putin’s demands are the sole focus. Some of the points I was referring to were mentioned in here before. I agree on the security guarantee, which needs to be just as strong as a membership NATO. Plus, it can’t be without US involvement. You can’t be the "deal maker” and not be involved in keeping the peace. If this regime had any expertise on foreign policy, there would be concessions from Russia to end the war.
April 24Apr 24 2 minutes ago, Frankfurteagle89 said:I agree on the security guarantee, which needs to be just as strong as a membership NATO. Plus, it can’t be without US involvement. You can’t be the "deal maker” and not be involved in keeping the peace.To me this is THE key. I agree 100% it has to directly include the US and be a full military agreement and not just some mineral mining.
Create an account or sign in to comment