June 20, 20205 yr 39 minutes ago, Uscg-green said: Two things. A "unarmed person with a knife" is not unarmed. Secondly they are not taught for many reasons. Small target and will not automatically stop a threat. I should also mention you can kill shooting in the leg very easily. Hit that femoral artery and it's bye bye. Your aim is that good to hit the artery on a leg that's moving?
June 20, 20205 yr I would like to know any stats on LE using deadly force that divides it up between local PD and those on state/county (depending where you live) level. I would think the incidence would be more of the use of deadly force comes from local PD since they aren't trained as well. For instance, I know someone who is a NJ State Trooper and went to their training academy and was there for months and training in almost military fashion for at least 5 days/week for 9+ hours/day. I know local (city, town, township, borough) PD in NJ doesn't get that level of training. I do believe LE needs to have better training and screening for their officers, especially on the local level. Each officer should have to complete a certain amount of hours of training along with a psychological test, which they should probably get a psyche test every 5 years since they see crazy ish most of us with never see in our lives. Yeah, they're trained for those situations, but that doesn't mean it prevents it from taking a mental toll on you. They also need to reach out to and interact more with the community. For the most part, right now they are seen as enforcers instead of peace makers. Stormtroopers instead of Jedi Knights. People, even law abiding ones, will have some degree of fear and mistrust of the former while feeling more at ease around the latter. Only local departments that need to be armed like the military are ones in heavy gang areas and then those officers should have military training and even special divisions/units/task forces to handle such high volatile areas and situations. Pretty much all of the cops I know are good guys. Family men. They have a tough job, one of the toughest anyone can do. It's not fair to paint them all with the same brush when a small percentage of them aren't fit to do the job. Though, they also have to realize they have to stop protecting the bad apples in the barrel and cast them out. I think it's nuts to just abolish PD departments, but they do need an overhaul. There is no quick instant fix here. Doing the right thing usually takes time.
June 20, 20205 yr 2 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: Your aim is that good to hit the artery on a leg that's moving? It's a pretty big artery. Hit someone solidly in the thigh there's a very good chance you do damage to the femoral.
June 20, 20205 yr 7 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: Your aim is that good to hit the artery on a leg that's moving? I think it would be that bad.
June 20, 20205 yr 4 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: It's a pretty big artery. Hit someone solidly in the thigh there's a very good chance you do damage to the femoral. That’s how Sean Taylor died R.I.P.
June 20, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, Dave Moss said: That’s how Sean Taylor died R.I.P. And Donald Hoobler in Band of Brothers. Guy who shot himself in the leg with a Luger.
June 20, 20205 yr Just now, DEagle7 said: And Donald Hoobler in Band of Brothers. Guy who shot himself in the leg with a Luger. Yea but cheddar bob pulled through
June 20, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, 20dawk4life said: Yea but cheddar bob pulled through Man that's a deep cut
June 20, 20205 yr 12 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: It's a pretty big artery. Hit someone solidly in the thigh there's a very good chance you do damage to the femoral. You have to hit the moving thigh though
June 20, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, Mike030270 said: You have to hit the moving thigh though I'm not saying it would be easy to hit on purpose. You aim for legs and it's going to get nicked fairly commonly though. I'm sure most people would take those odds over surviving getting shot center mass but it's still something to keep in mind
June 20, 20205 yr 43 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: It's a pretty big artery. Hit someone solidly in the thigh there's a very good chance you do damage to the femoral. Yup. i would think you dont need a direct hit either. Just hit the inside of the thigh anywhere and a bullet that artery could get damaged.
June 20, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, DEagle7 said: Yes. Camden. It sounds like there may be some useful tactics that police nationwide could employ using Camden as a model. I'm sure there are some that do teach similar approaches. So many times in my life, I've witnessed two males quickly escalating an incident between the two of them simply by using a tone that sets the other one off. Something that could have easily been worked out, got out of hand because of the reactions. Training officers to understand this better could be a big help. I believe interacting more with the public during non-incidents is another thing they're doing that helps both them and the general public. However, we simply can't ignore this from the same article: Quote Camden’s police department has nearly doubled in size since its reformation to around 400, a factor that educator Keith Benson believes gets overlooked in all the praise being heaped on the force, along with the long-term decline in crime nationwide. "You went from a skeleton crew by design to a fully staffed police force,” said Benson, president of a Camden teachers union. "The public narrative is really incomplete.” So if "dissolved its police force" mostly means "doubled it's police force," then maybe we need to consider that.
June 20, 20205 yr 10 minutes ago, brkmsn said: It sounds like there may be some useful tactics that police nationwide could employ using Camden as a model. I'm sure there are some that do teach similar approaches. So many times in my life, I've witnessed two males quickly escalating an incident between the two of them simply by using a tone that sets the other one off. Something that could have easily been worked out, got out of hand because of the reactions. Training officers to understand this better could be a big help. I believe interacting more with the public during non-incidents is another thing they're doing that helps both them and the general public. However, we simply can't ignore this from the same article: So if "dissolved its police force" mostly means "doubled it's police force," then maybe we need to consider that. Doubled in size "since its reformation". Which is still less than what it was prior to disbandment/reformation. Quote By cutting salaries, the county was able to hire more officers, increasing the size of the department from 250 to 400 and putting the number of Camden police officers close to what it was before the 2010 budget cuts. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750
June 20, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, DaEagles4Life said: 2.7 "murders" per day? In the US: I guess that means 685 people are murdered every day by doctors (medical error). 350 people are murdered each day by their prescription drugs (taken correctly). 1444 people are murdered by the ground everyday by falling.
June 20, 20205 yr 5 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: Doubled in size "since its reformation". Which is still less than what it was prior to disbandment/reformation. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750 Yes, and the crime spikes happened after the budget cuts and reduced police force. That's not totally unexpected.
June 20, 20205 yr 11 minutes ago, brkmsn said: Yes, and the crime spikes happened after the budget cuts and reduced police force. That's not totally unexpected. The budget cuts also preceded the disbandment/reformation process though so I hope you're not trying to blame it all on that. And since the disbandment violent crime rates have decreased significantly. Quote The police reported 1,161 violent crime incidents in 2019, down 42 percent since 2012, the year before Camden County took over policing from the city. Excessive force complaints have also dropped. Three were registered for 2019, down from 65 in 2014. You keep trying to shoehorn in your narrative but it's not going to work in this case. They disbanded the department and remade it with significant reallocation of resources. They now have less cops than they did at their "peak" (not "doubled it" like you claimed) and violent crime has dropped dramatically. It has been very much a success.
June 20, 20205 yr 3 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said: Sure, let's do that, because that's certainly a factor. It's still an enormous disparity to account for. And your question also raises two other critical points: the need for sensible gun laws that can restrict nutjobs' ability to access firearms, and the need for American police to be extensively evaluated, screened, and trained for the incredibly difficult and stressful job that they have to do with such a high likelihood of encountering armed criminals. The other countries listed require much more from their police recruits in terms of education, screening and training. An American cop basically just needs a diploma or GED and about 5 months of training. On other developed nations, it usually requires a college degree and several years of training. In addition to the underlying institutional problems, the qualifications to be a cop in America are unconscionably low. Most agencies are requiring an associates or military service. 3 hours ago, DEagle7 said: Yes. Camden. Yeah it’s pretty disingenuous to use Camden. The old department was a joke and kept getting cut. The good people jumped to other agencies. Think bottom of the barrel department. Watch a Flinttown to see what jokes of a department look like. Camden was one of them.
June 20, 20205 yr 2 hours ago, 20dawk4life said: Yea but cheddar bob pulled through This guy's a gangsta, his real name's Clarence!
June 20, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, Bill said: Most agencies are requiring an associates or military service. Yeah it’s pretty disingenuous to use Camden. The old department was a joke and kept getting cut. The good people jumped to other agencies. Think bottom of the barrel department. Watch a Flinttown to see what jokes of a department look like. Camden was one of them. How is it disingenuous? He asked if there was an instance of a department of being completely removed and replaced with success and well, that's a very clear example. I'm not advocating we replace all PD but certainly Camden shows that doing a complete overhaul of the sheetier departments can have pretty clear benefit.
June 20, 20205 yr 8 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: The budget cuts also preceded the disbandment/reformation process though so I hope you're not trying to blame it all on that. And since the disbandment violent crime rates have decreased significantly. You keep trying to shoehorn in your narrative but it's not going to work in this case. They disbanded the department and remade it with significant reallocation of resources. They now have less cops than they did at their "peak" (not "doubled it" like you claimed) and violent crime has dropped dramatically. It has been very much a success. First they slashed the budget and cut the police force (2010). Then crime spiked by 2012 (the year they use to compare to today's numbers). You simply can't discount that completely.
June 20, 20205 yr 1 minute ago, DEagle7 said: How is it disingenuous? He asked if there was an instance of a department of being completely removed and replaced with success and well, that's a very clear example. I'm not advocating we replace all PD but certainly Camden shows that doing a complete overhaul of the sheetier departments can have pretty clear benefit. Yeah the issue is you’re looking at a specific issue for one specific department and trying to extrapolate that onto other agencies. Different agencies have different issues, statutes, and case law to worry about. A big part of the problem is funding. You have agencies like NYPD that spent a bajillion dollars in counter terrorism that did nothing because that’s a Federal level threat. Meanwhile the cops there all have 12lb triggers on their guns because the old timer cops couldn’t index their finger and their firearm training is totally worthless. The best thing you can do is mandate funding, mandate training, mandate pay. Saying defund the police because they’re doing things they shouldn’t be is like saying defund teachers because they’re doing things they shouldn’t be. The teacher should be there to impart knowledge, but they got everything thrown on them and have to be everything to kids. If you defund them and make them just teach, you think parents are suddenly going to start being great role models? Same goes with all the extra stuff that cops got thrown on their plate. They didn’t ask for it. And it’s going to get thrown on someone else’s plate and it’s not going to be taken care of because that’s what happens. Everyone acts like cops are the only ones who need to change. They need to change, but society as a whole needs to as well, but they won’t. So we’re going to end up not fixing the problem and just make our policing worse in the process.
June 20, 20205 yr 6 minutes ago, brkmsn said: First they slashed the budget and cut the police force (2010). Then crime spiked by 2012 (the year they use to compare to today's numbers). You simply can't discount that completely. I don't discount it, I just don't see how it's relevant. Yes if you keep the same sheety departments with their issues in place and decrease their funding/numbers that's not a viable solution, but that's not what I'm advocating. That's not what 99% of these groups are advocating. They are advocating certain police departments be (to quote you) "torn down and redesigned". Well Camden PD was torn down and redesigned. The current result is a significant decrease in violent crime as well excessive force complaints.
June 20, 20205 yr 3 minutes ago, DEagle7 said: I don't discount it, I just don't see how it's relevant. Yes if you keep the same sheety departments with their issues in place and decrease their funding/numbers that's not a viable solution, but that's not what I'm advocating. That's not what 99% of these groups are advocating. They are advocating certain police departments be (to quote you) "torn down and redesigned". Well Camden PD was torn down and redesigned. The current result is a significant decrease in violent crime as well excessive force complaints. Again, I already acknowledged some of their ideas I feel are positive that are most likely helping. However, you're comparing today's improved statistics to a time when the force was hit by budget cuts that resulted in an undersized force that couldn't keep order. Why not compare the "rebuilt" stats to the fully funded previously un-dismantled force's? The original article you quoted also mentioned that Camden is still the 10th most dangerous city in the US.
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