26 minutes ago, Bill said:

Yeah the issue is you’re looking at a specific issue for one specific department and trying to extrapolate that onto other agencies.  Different agencies have different issues, statutes, and case law to worry about.

A big part of the problem is funding. You have agencies like NYPD that spent a bajillion dollars in counter terrorism that did nothing because that’s a Federal level threat. Meanwhile the cops there all have 12lb triggers on their guns because the old timer cops couldn’t index their finger and their firearm training is totally worthless. 
 

The best thing you can do is mandate funding, mandate training, mandate pay. Saying defund the police because they’re doing things they shouldn’t be is like saying defund teachers because they’re doing things they shouldn’t be. The teacher should be there to impart knowledge, but they got everything thrown on them and have to be everything to kids. If you defund them and make them just teach, you think parents are suddenly going to start being great role models? Same goes with all the extra stuff that cops got thrown on their plate. They didn’t ask for it. And it’s going to get thrown on someone else’s plate and it’s not going to be taken care of because that’s what happens. 
 

Everyone acts like cops are the only ones who need to change. They need to change, but society as a whole needs to as well, but they won’t. So we’re going to end up not fixing the problem and just make our policing worse in the process. 

To be clear, I have not once argued that the budgets should be decreased universally, or that the Camden model can/should be applied everywhere.  I have also (yesterday) argued that we any reallocation of money from the PD should go hand-in-hand with a refocusing of the PDs role and that cops should not be expected to respond to every call about homeless people, mental health issues, animal control etc.  And I fully agree that there is plenty of blame to go around.  

However, when someone says things like "There's a people problem in this world --- not a cop problem in this country", brushes off European policing data as not applicable, and then tries to act like disbanding/rebuilding a PD is some insane idea that has no precedent with phrases like "are we just going to pretend that such an action would make things all better?"  That's just ridiculous.  PDs are not solely to blame but they absolutely share some of it, and acting as if "well shucks the world is tough, it's a rough situation but nothing we can do" is just ludicrous 

15 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Again, I already acknowledged some of their ideas I feel are positive that are most likely helping. However, you're comparing today's improved statistics to a time when the force was hit by budget cuts that resulted in an undersized force that couldn't keep order. Why not compare the "rebuilt" stats to the fully funded previously un-dismantled force's? The original article you quoted also mentioned that Camden is still the 10th most dangerous city in the US. 

The violent crime rates are still better than those prior to the budget cuts.  The violent crime rate wasn't much different in 2012 than 2011 or 2008, it's not like it was some kind of crazy outlier.  You can also look at it year by year and they have continued to improve..  No one is claiming that Camden is now fixed and perfect but that is a pretty massive improvement for such a short period of time.  In this specific case, disbanding and rebuilding the PD absolutely resulted in an improved the crime rate in that city.  

13 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

To be clear, I have not once argued that the budgets should be decreased universally, or that the Camden model can/should be applied everywhere.  I have also (yesterday) argued that we any reallocation of money from the PD should go hand-in-hand with a refocusing of the PDs role and that cops should not be expected to respond to every call about homeless people, mental health issues, animal control etc.  And I fully agree that there is plenty of blame to go around.  

However, when someone says things like "There's a people problem in this world --- not a cop problem in this country", brushes off European policing data as not applicable, and then tries to act like disbanding/rebuilding a PD is some insane idea that has no precedent with phrases like "are we just going to pretend that such an action would make things all better?"  That's just ridiculous.  PDs are not solely to blame but they absolutely share some of it, and acting as if "well shucks the world is tough, it's a rough situation but nothing we can do" is just ludicrous 

I’m not saying you argued against budget cuts; I was referring to the want of them in general. 
 

While I stated that policing needs reform, don’t be surprised when reforming the police doesn’t move the needle as much as desired. 

10 hours ago, SNOORDA said:

Im trying to figure out how the city hasnt went into full blown anarchy mode after 3 days of no police. 

The media is surprisingly downplaying it.

7 minutes ago, Bill said:

I’m not saying you argued against budget cuts; I was referring to the want of them in general. 
 

While I stated that policing needs reform, don’t be surprised when reforming the police doesn’t move the needle as much as desired. 

By itself, probably not.  And I fully expect plenty of places to bungle the process. If we're focusing on one issue prison reform seems like it would have a much more significant impact. I just don't think it's worthless or completely without precedent either.  We'll see.

7 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

To be clear, I have not once argued that the budgets should be decreased universally, or that the Camden model can/should be applied elsewhere.  I have also (yesterday) argued that we any reallocation of money from the PD should go hand-in-hand with a refocusing of the PDs role and that cops should not be expected to respond to every call about homeless people, mental health issues, animal control etc.  And I fully agree that there is plenty of blame to go around.  

However, when someone says things like "There's a people problem in this world --- not a cop problem in this country", brushes off European policing data as not applicable, and then tries to act like disbanding/rebuilding a PD is some insane idea that has no precedent with phrases like "are we just going to pretend that such an action would make things all better?"  That's just ridiculous.  PDs are not solely to blame but they absolutely share some of it, and acting as if "well shucks the world is tough, it's a rough situation but nothing we can do" is just ludicrous 

Oh ... is that what I said?

... and here I was thinking I was hinting at an even larger problem. Unless you can convince all the criminals to play nice and at the same time convince all the police to never make mistakes or hire people that at some point might screw up or lose it, there will always be incidents no matter what changes you make. Why? Because we are dealing with humans, not gods. We can certainly learn from mistakes. We can certainly find ways to improve. But it's pretty naive to think the ultimate solution is to quit and start over.  I never said there's "nothing we can do." I just wouldn't personally disassemble and rebuild my entire car because the water pump was bad. You do what you have to do to replace the bad water pump and hope it doesn't fail again anytime soon. But you have to understand that it could fail again in the future. 

2 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Oh ... is that what I said?

... and here I was thinking I was hinting at an even larger problem. Unless you can convince all the criminals to play nice and at the same time convince all the police to never make mistakes or hire people that at some point might screw up or lose it, there will always be incidents no matter what changes you make. Why? Because we are dealing with humans, not gods. We can certainly learn from mistakes. We can certainly find ways to improve. But it's pretty naive to think the ultimate solution is to quit and start over.  I never said there's "nothing we can do." I just wouldn't personally disassemble and rebuild my entire car because the water pump was bad. You do what you have to do to replace the bad water pump and hope it doesn't fail again anytime soon. But you have to understand that it could fail again in the future. 

If you want to focus on exactly what you said specifically it was:

Quote

"are there any findings that show criminal activity decreasing in US areas where the police system has been torn down and redesigned? ... Or are we just going to pretend that such an action would make things all better?"

I provided a very clear example where it has worked with clear success.  To use your analogy, it turns out if the car is significantly F'd replacing the whole thing actually can be a better than repairing it piecemeal, especially if that car has sucked for years.  

3 hours ago, Mike030270 said:

Your aim is that good to hit the artery on a leg that's moving?

Did I say aim for it? You don't have to aim for it to hit it. 

I think some people have this idea cops want to kill people. They don't. I know two officers who are out of LE now who have shot and killed. Both were proven 100 percent justified. One even got a award. They both got out. They couldn't do it anymore. Even though it was justified it still eats at them that they took a life. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.11alive.com/amp/article/news/local/protests/officer-sickout-blue-flu-third-day-atlanta/85-515886b4-7241-4320-8db3-e257fb2754a5

 

(Also since the Chief of Police resigned the guy running the show is the guy that normally runs the city jail.)

3 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

I provided a very clear example where it has worked with clear success.  To use your analogy, it turns out if the car is significantly F'd replacing the whole thing actually can be a better than repairing it piecemeal, especially if that car has sucked for years.  

You did provide an answer to my question and I don't think I ever discounted it entirely. We can certainly examine the results and the techniques that contributed. The article you linked was a little more balanced than your actual take on Camden County's "success." 

In reality, we're kind of looking at a situation where the police force went from city funding to county funding. We're calling that scrapping and rebuilding. Did they hire all new people? No. Is it a new union representing the police? No. Obviously the police force and the union have different leadership and one would like to think those factors would contribute a lot to changes. But the narrative here is about disbanding and rebuilding and just how much of a factor that is. 

IMO, people in favor of disbanding and rebuilding are building up Camden as a role model despite a lot of people saying, "wait a minute ..." Likewise, it's possible people like me that don't believe disbanding and rebuilding is the answer may be discounting important lessons that could be learned from what has happened there. 

It should be studied more thoroughly and we should always strive to improve.

https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justice/articles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade

So in the past decade 2012 and 2013 were outliers for murder in Camden. In may of 2013 they switched over to using the county. In doing so the number of cops went from 268 to 418. 

Quote

In 2013, the city of Camden disbanded its 140+ year police force and formed a new department with the county.

In the immediate, the shift meant the hiring of more officers, and thus a heavier presence in local neighborhoods. That year the force went from 268 officers to 418.

Today, that figure rounds out at about the same.

In return murder has gone down to below average for Camden. Rape is down slightly, robbery and burglary are down by 60 percent, assault is down 25 percent, larceny is down 44 percent, and car theft is up 3 percent. 

 

https://money.cnn.com/2011/01/17/news/economy/camden_police_layoffs/index.htm

It should be be noted that in January of 2011 Camden laid off 163 officers, around 44 percent of the force. This was due to failed negotiations, not to reform/defund the police.

 

1 hour ago, 20dawk4life said:

https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justice/articles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade

So in the past decade 2012 and 2013 were outliers for murder in Camden. In may of 2013 they switched over to using the county. In doing so the number of cops went from 268 to 418. 

In return murder has gone down to below average for Camden. Rape is down slightly, robbery and burglary are down by 60 percent, assault is down 25 percent, larceny is down 44 percent, and car theft is up 3 percent. 

 

https://money.cnn.com/2011/01/17/news/economy/camden_police_layoffs/index.htm

It should be be noted that in January of 2011 Camden laid off 163 officers, around 44 percent of the force. This was due to failed negotiations, not to reform/defund the police.

 

Looking just at the years they decreased staffing yes total violent crime bumped slightly after the layoffs. However in 2013 they did completely disband/replace the force with a county department a new team and the drop in crime is well beyond making up the ground lost in 2011 with the staff cuts, nor do they have more police than they did pre staff cuts.  

https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Camden-New-Jersey.html

In 2008 there were 54 murders, 70 rapes, 815 Robberies, 838 assaults, 1,221, 2,693, 998 auto thefts, and 120 cases of Arson which is pretty comparable to those 2012 numbers. The best numbers I can find seem to be on 2005 with 33 murders, 47 rapes, 702 robberies, 898 assaults, 1020 burglaries, 2332 thefts, 955 auto thefts.  That is still significantly worse than it is in 2019 (25/67/304/765/372/1197/537) and again those are the best numbers pre cuts I can find. 

seems to be a safer place now that police are pulling back.

20 hours ago, greend said:

The Law is clear, it's not first degree murder. 

Followed up on this. They charged him with felony murder, not murder in the first degree.

Quote

A person commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he or she causes the death of another human being, irrespective of malice. So, the person does not have to have the intent to cause a death but does have the intent to commit a felony.

 

lmao.

9 minutes ago, Kz! said:

lmao.

Kinda like those cops who sabotaged a medic station in NC, amirite?

Just now, EaglesRocker97 said:

Kinda like those cops who sabotaged a medic station in NC, amirite?

wat

4 minutes ago, Kz! said:

wat

 

Quote

Fact check: Police did destroy a medic area during protests in Asheville, North Carolina

The claim: Asheville, NC, police destroyed a medical station during Tuesday night's protest

After protests in Asheville, North Carolina, social media posts that show law enforcement busting water bottles went viral. 

The incident Tuesday was caught on video and described by a medic volunteer.

The protest marked the third day of demonstrations in Asheville in response to the death of a black man, George Floyd, in the custody of Minneapolis police officers.

What happened?

Video by the Citizen Times shows Asheville police officers in riot gear and holding shields forming a protective circle around officers stomping and stabbing water bottles. Other officers destroyed medical supplies such as bandages and saline solution.

Sean Miller, a UNC-Asheville student who is head of communication for the medical team, said the 10-12 medics present were all clearly marked as such and did not provoke police in any way.

 

"A few minutes after 8 o'clock, we saw a SWAT team coming at us," Miller said. "They immediately, when they approached, they said, 'We're Asheville Police Department, and you guys need to leave.' They grabbed us by the shoulders and pushed out of the alleyway where we were trying to provide medical support."

She said they had a verbal agreement with APD to be present, even after curfew.

Some of the medics had bruises and felt the effects of tear gas, but no one was seriously injured. They lost at least $700 in supplies, Miller said.

Officers didn't give them an explanation for the destruction, she said.

Glenna Grant, 33, said she witnessed the officers destroy water bottles and medical supplies. Grant said she and others set up the medical center and did not plan to protest but rather provide a safe space for anyone injured during the night.

Grant said officers "hit them with shields” and took several people to the ground.

"We had eye wash, sutures, EMTs and doctors,” Grant said. "They threw several people to the ground. We were thrown, shouted at, screamed at and treated like criminals. No one resisted.”

Jon Jones, who works with the medical team, said police struck down a peaceful operation, and "those actions are inexcusable." 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-police-destroy-medic-station-asheville/3124847001/

 

"All of those officers took an oath to stand and protect the people, and there's no room for error in that," he said. 

Did the city have an explanation? 

In a Facebook post Wednesday, Mayor Esther Manheimer acknowledged the incident, which occurred at 8:14 p.m. in a small alley off the main public square  downtown.

"I am aware of the incident involving officers destroying the medical supplies of demonstrators, including water bottles, food and other supplies," Manheimer wrote. "Council has asked for an explanation of why that occurred.

"We are a city that cares, and I want to thank all of our officers who have taken a knee and worked to protect us," Manheimer continued. "But this was a disappointing moment in an otherwise peaceful evening."

Around 4:30 p.m. Wednesday, Police Chief David Zack issued a statement, explaining the officers were destroying potential projectiles at an unpermitted medical station. He said the medical crew received multiple warnings.

"We apologize for not being able to confiscate these supplies last night," Zack said in a news release. "Over the past three days, APD has tried to eliminate objects that can be thrown at protesters and law enforcement. Because water bottles, in particular, have been continuously used over the last three nights, officers destroyed them. Officers also searched for potentially dangerous objects, such as explosives."

He said the medical station was on private property without permission of the owner.

Organizers respond

Miller disputes the chief's account, saying she was at the station starting at 4 p.m. June 2.

"We didn't receive a single warning," she said. "They didn't warn us whatsoever."

She also said the mention of explosives was perplexing.

"There were absolutely no explosives within the medical area. None," Miller said. "No fireworks, nothing that could even be perceived as dangerous."

Miller did acknowledge that they inadvertently set up on private property June 2 without the property owner's permission. They had spoken with management of the nearby restaurants and thought that was sufficient, she said, but they "didn't have the awareness that there was a separate company that owned the entire property."

Our ruling: True

Based on reporting from the scene of protests and statements from the APD and Asheville's mayor, we rate this claim as TRUE. 

Fact-check sources:

• David Thompson, video of Glenna Grant
• Asheville Mayor Esther Manheimer, Facebook post
• Asheville Police Department, statement posted on Twitter
• Ashville Citizen Times, Mayor Manheimer wants explanation of police destruction of medical station

Thank you for supporting our journalism. You can subscribe to our print edition, ad-free app or electronic newspaper replica here.

Our fact check work is supported in part by a grant from Facebook.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-police-destroy-medic-station-asheville/3124847001/

Thugs, indeed.

Oh yeah, destroying that eyewash station is kinda similar to attacking a cop who is attending a shooting victim. Kinda.

lmao 

8 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Oh yeah, destroying that eyewash station is kinda similar to attacking a cop who is attending a shooting victim. Kinda.

lmao 

Nice deflection from the topic of cops acting like sadistic criminals.

2 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Nice deflection from the topic of cops acting like sadistic criminals.

oh, that was the topic? I post a video of a person getting shot in Atlanta in the Atlanta thread and then a video of a cop getting shoved while he's attending the victim, and you respond with "what about an eyewash station in North Carolina", and I'm the one deflecting. lmao. This has been a peak cvon exchange. gg

5 minutes ago, Kz! said:

oh, that was the topic? I post a video of a person getting shot in Atlanta in the Atlanta thread and then a video of a cop getting shoved while he's attending the victim, and you respond with "what about an eyewash station in North Carolina", and I'm the one deflecting. lmao. This has been a peak cvon exchange. gg

It's germane to your video, because your intention is to de-legitimize BLM by posting a video of some activists being criminals. Well, I can play that game, too, and show you an instance of some cops acting like war criminals, clearly demonstrating the need for these protests against gross abuses of power and creeping authoritarianism.

It's too easy to make you look like a complete tool.

1 minute ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

It's germane to your video, because your itention is to de-legitimize BLM by posting a video of some activists being criminals. Well, I can do you one better and show you an instance of some cops acting like war criminals, clearly demonstrating the need for these protests against gross abuses of power and a creeping authoritarianism

It's too easy to make you look like a complete tool.

Take a deep breath, fella. You won the argument and my attempts to de-legitimize BLM have failed. gg

 

Don't get why the police are always so hostile...