24 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

No doubt.  All I am saying is that there is precedent for a guy to step up out of seemingly nowhere after years of being nothing.  That said, I'm not holding my breath.  If he steps up, great. If not... so much worse for this team.

Oh i never said he couldn’t. I’m hoping he does. Would be a nice pleasant surprise if he turned that switch on. My originally point was i find it hard to believe he’d take those strides on year three to be a competent starter after what we’ve seen. Why like you said you aren’t holding your breath. Maybe new coaching and he is but would still be concerning going into the season with him and Blankenship as the starters  

It’s definitely concerning though as he’s unproven in 3 years and little experience starting over a whole season. Why people were concerned with Epps last year. Add on we can say look at mikell or Epps. I can say look at Reynolds or jarrett or Curtis marsh or trevard lindley. I think the odds aren’t in his favor. I’m hoping he proves me wrong. I’d love to see it 

8 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Oh i never said he couldn’t. I’m hoping he does. Would be a nice pleasant surprise if he turned that switch on. My originally point was i find it hard to believe he’d take those strides on year three to be a competent starter after what we’ve seen. Why like you said you aren’t holding your breath.

It’s definitely concerning though as he’s unproven in 3 years. Add on we can say look at mikell or Epps. I can say look at Reynolds or jarrett or Curtis marsh. I think the odds aren’t in his favor. I’m hoping he proves me wrong. I’d love to see it 

The odds are against all players though.  Even first rounders bust out at a high rate.   But, we all get excited each year for them too.  In a few weeks we'll see what happens in real games.  Until then... it's just guessing.

To be fair to BLG, TJ Edwards would make plays in camp. White did too. Even Elliss has. Maybe Dean is just a gamer, but BLG has been talking about how invisible Dean has been in practices since last year. 

9 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Mikell was on the team from 2003-2004. He played in all 16 games. 

again if everyone was mikell then davion Taylor should still be here. I can point to mikell but the amount of players who have not made that jump is much larger than the small outlier section of guys like mikell. I’d add on when mikell came on board dawkins and Michael Lewis were in front of him and the eagles had a stacked roster. In 2020 it was mills who was converting back to safety and an aging mcleod. And 2021 was Harris (not good) and mcleod. Much more realistic it took time for mikell to get where he was as who was in front of him and he was udfa and they were grooming him for the long term. That wasn’t the expectation with wallace. They wanted him to take the leap in year two. And then year 3 they saw enough that Blankenship passed, Epps passed and they traded for CJGJ.  

But Q’s stats support that he didn’t start until year five.  Epps stats support that he started as much as Wallace in his early years.  Matt’s point was could that support that Wallace might develop in year four?  Maybe.  Or he could flop.  So I take hope in the improvement we saw in Wallace last year and that he is getting some first string reps early in TC.  I still think Brown is the longer term plan.  If Wallace is improved, Greta. It’s not like they have a huge investment in either Edmunds or Evans.  I kind of look at it like getting whip cream and a cherry on top of a shake.  Great if either happens, even better on both but ultimately, neither is guaranteed or expected.

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

The odds are against all players though.  Even first rounders bust out at a high rate.   But, we all get excited each year for them too.  In a few weeks we'll see what happens in real games.  Until then... it's just guessing.

Yeah. And if any player for 3 years showed very little flash then i think most would be concerned heading into a season with them as a starter. My issue is really comparing him to mikell cause  neither started games for much of the first 3 years. I mean either did jarrett, marsh, lindley or Ed Reynolds. None of them made it long term option as a starting safety in the league (Reynolds started 10 games and then was out). 

If we are doing the mikell with wallace comp then why aren’t we doing the graham with Barnett? Took graham until year 7 to start all 16 games (year 6 to get to 10). Barnett has 21.5 sacks through 6 years and graham had 23.5. I think graham and mikell are closer to outliers than what the norm usually is. 

35 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

No doubt.  All I am saying is that there is precedent for a guy to step up out of seemingly nowhere after years of being nothing.  That said, I'm not holding my breath.  If he steps up, great. If not... so much worse for this team.

No the precedent is for them to washout. The ones that succeed like that are rarities

Dean was so Fing good in college. Not  solid good. It's not hyperbole to say he was a superstar in college. A legitimate game wrecker. He could cover, good vs the run, he was instinctive, he even had like 7 or 8 sacks in his final season so he was good at rushing the passer. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be good in the NFL, but with that much talent and production I'd still be surprised if he didn't turn into a good player.

13 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

But Q’s stats support that he didn’t start until year five.  Epps stats support that he started as much as Wallace in his early years.  Matt’s point was could that support that Wallace might develop in year four?  Maybe.  Or he could flop.  So I take hope in the improvement we saw in Wallace last year and that he is getting some first string reps early in TC.  I still think Brown is the longer term plan.  If Wallace is improved, Greta. It’s not like they have a huge investment in either Edmunds or Evans.  I kind of look at it like getting whip cream and a cherry on top of a shake.  Great if either happens, even better on both but ultimately, neither is guaranteed or expected.

 it’s not concerning about having to start him with what his first 3 years have looked like? Anyone saying it’s a given he becomes mikell or even Epps is playing a game you can play with a ton of players if we wanted to. Could make the case for davion Taylor if we want to do that. Also people were concerned with Epps last offseason as well. And ditto with mikell who had more talent in front of him when he got into the league so it made sense why it took him longer to get there. He was buried  the eagles tried to give wallace the job in 2021 and he was bad so aging Harris/mcleod got it. Then he was not good last year in preseason/TC they had Blankenship pass him on the depth chart as the main backup and traded for CJGJ. I think those moves tell a lot about how the eagles felt about him last year and even 2021 having to start Harris 

We can compare mikell and Epps with wallace. Why not graham with Barnett then? Barnett had 21.5 sacks after 6 years in the nfl and dealt with injuries. Graham had 23.5 sacks and dealt with injuries. Graham didn’t start 10 or more games til year 6 and not 16 until year 7. So if Barnett had to start would you not be concerned? And would we still make that same point comparing Graham’s journey to get there to Barnett? Likely not. 

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Yeah. And if any player for 3 years showed very little flash then i think most would be concerned heading into a season with them as a starter. My issue is really comparing him to mikell cause  neither started games for much of the first 3 years. I mean either did jarrett, marsh, lindley or Ed Reynolds. None of them made it long term option as a starting safety in the league (Reynolds started 10 games and then was out). 

If we are doing the mikell with wallace comp then why aren’t we doing the graham with Barnett? Took graham until year 7 to start all 16 games (year 6 to get to 10). Barnett has 21.5 sacks through 6 years and graham had 23.5. I think graham and mikell are closer to outliers than what the norm usually is. 

Oh, I'm not jumping on the bandwagon there.  I just want to have optimism, even if it's misdirected.   The safeties and LBs are the weakest part of this team.  I want to be positive, so I am choosing to be.  There will be time enough to be negative.

3 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

No the precedent is for them to washout. The ones that succeed like that are rarities

The probabilities are for them to washout.  BUT, there is a precedent for it to work out, even if it is rare.  Playing the lottery pays out... but very rarely.  But, there are people who win.  It's not an investment strategy that one could count on, but it has worked out for some.  

Personally, I don't play the lottery, because I don't see the odds as being worth it for me, but I am not going to deny that some people do win.

I think there is still a fine chance that Nakobe Dean turns out to be a pretty good player. But I also think it would be silly to think that he lasted until the third round last year SOLELY because of his shoulder injury. I'm sure that contributed to his fall in the draft, but I suspect that most teams didn't consider him to be as stellar of a prospect that most of the draft guys hyped him up to be. After all, he's small framed and was not viewed as being especially fast, particularly for someone who is undersized. And maybe, just maybe, he was making play after play out there because he was surrounded by studs every way you looked.

And even last year, I wasn't all that impressed, albeit in VERY limited exposure. I thought he looked kinda slow and not especially athletic.

Fast forward to this year and everyone seems to be back where they were a year ago on him, thinking he's going to be a stud. As for me, I'm not quite as confident of that. I think he should be decent, and he might actually be good (wouldn't be surprised at all) but I also think there's a chance that he ends up being kinda JAGGY. 

The entire middle of our defense was gutted, we lost our best DT, our two best LBs and two best S. Can one or two be adequately replaced? Sure, but all 5? Remains to be seen, but the odds are definitely stacked against us given what we know so far. Seeing them on the field in an actual game will tell us a lot more. 

3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

To be fair to BLG, TJ Edwards would make plays in camp. White did too. Even Elliss has. Maybe Dean is just a gamer, but BLG has been talking about how invisible Dean has been in practices since last year. 

It’s BLG.  He and Kempski aren’t that impressive in understanding the nuances of practice, much less four and a little of five practices for Dean and no pads.  Ellis made some interceptions, mostly on Mariota, which doesn’t sound that impressive. How a LB stands out in practice to the likes of either of those two when there is no tackling or popping is hard to understand. Coaches are looking at adjustments, reactions, positioning, gap discipline, football IQ.  Are Kempski and BLG?  They saw enough of that to realize Taylor still lacks that football IQ.  They saw enough of Dean to trust him with the green dot.  

Look, the Beats have a tough job.  Fans hungry for detail and even understanding who is meeting expectations.  Meanwhile they get early TC with the setup of the NovaCare not ideal for their seeing great detail. Heck, we are grasping at straws ourselves based on limited access to info until games begin.  It’s fixing to get worse as we slide from open practices to the Beats to the scrimmage practices (but at least with some PS games, albeit vanilla with starters sitting) and then once a week first half hour where fifteen minutes of that is stretching. But at least we get real games then.  

10 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The probabilities are for them to washout.  BUT, there is a precedent for it to work out, even if it is rare.  Playing the lottery pays out... but very rarely.  But, there are people who win.  It's not an investment strategy that one could count on, but it has worked out for some.  

Personally, I don't play the lottery, because I don't see the odds as being worth it for me, but I am not going to deny that some people do win.

Not you but in general when someone says well mikell and Epps did it as it’s like the norm bothers me. I can name guys like lindley, marsh, jarrett and Reynolds that didn’t make it long term when they tried it. I just think it’s a game where you can put one or two of the rarities and can apply that to any player. Again it could happen but the odds aren’t in your favor and reasonable to to be concerned about it.  

Again not you, but go look at Barnett’s first 6 years and Graham’s first 6. Both missed time with injuries. Barnett played 65 games and graham 80. sack totals (graham 23.5 to Barnett 21.5), TFL (36 for Barnett vs. 38 for graham) and Qb hits (Barnett 78 vs. graham 43). yet no one talking about comparing Graham’s path with Barnett. So if someone said i don’t believe barnett made the strides to be an impact starter, is someone going to say look at what Graham did? Probably not. 

9 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The probabilities are for them to washout.  BUT, there is a precedent for it to work out, even if it is rare.  Playing the lottery pays out... but very rarely.  But, there are people who win.  It's not an investment strategy that one could count on, but it has worked out for some.  

Personally, I don't play the lottery, because I don't see the odds as being worth it for me, but I am not going to deny that some people do win.

I can appreciate the desire for optimism, but fear that sets up for far more pain in the longrun

Much like the coaches, i would play probabilities over possibilities

5 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

I can appreciate the desire for optimism, but fear that sets up for far more pain in the longrun

Much like the coaches, i would play probabilities over possibilities

I’m fine if people want to be optimistic. However i find it concerning based off what we’ve seen over 3 years that you’d have wallace and Blankenship as your starters. I like Blankenship but even he isn’t fully proven yet and gives me concern that they’d be paired up together and both have limited starting experience.

my bigger issue is when we randomly throw out guys who did do it. Meanwhile i can do the same thing the other way with guys they tried and didn’t. So what exactly are we doing? Cause it can go both directions. Just guessing, probably more names that have not be able too then have. Why i said find it hard to believe he could and why i was concerned

like I’ve said I’d be thrilled if he does. I loved him coming out but not going off just Tc practices and snaps to justify we shouldn’t be concerned if he’s starting week 1

16 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Dean was so Fing good in college. Not  solid good. It's not hyperbole to say he was a superstar in college. A legitimate game wrecker. He could cover, good vs the run, he was instinctive, he even had like 7 or 8 sacks in his final season so he was good at rushing the passer. Doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be good in the NFL, but with that much talent and production I'd still be surprised if he didn't turn into a good player.

Jamarcus Russel?

Brian Bosworth?

Tavon Austin? 

Trent Richardson? 

Rolando McClain if you were looking for a LB

Happens all the time...obviously Dean was great in college...but maybe he just needs time from his injury...there's a reason he dropped...we didn't get a steal until he becomes 1/4 of what he was in college...

13 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 it’s not concerning about having to start him with what his first 3 years have looked like? Anyone saying it’s a given he becomes mikell or even Epps is playing a game you can play with a ton of players if we wanted to. Could make the case for davion Taylor if we want to do that. Also people were concerned with Epps last offseason as well. And ditto with mikell who had more talent in front of him when he got into the league so it made sense why it took him longer to get there. He was buried  the eagles tried to give wallace the job in 2021 and he was bad so aging Harris/mcleod got it. Then he was not good last year in preseason/TC they had Blankenship pass him on the depth chart as the main backup and traded for CJGJ. I think those moves tell a lot about how the eagles felt about him last year and even 2021 having to start Harris 

We can compare mikell and Epps with wallace. Why not graham with Barnett then? Barnett had 21.5 sacks after 6 years in the nfl and dealt with injuries. Graham had 23.5 sacks and dealt with injuries. Graham didn’t start 10 or more games til year 6 and not 16 until year 7. So if Barnett had to start would you not be concerned? And would we still make that same point comparing Graham’s journey to get there to Barnett? Likely not. 

No one is saying "it’s a given” that Wallace becomes Q or Epps.  Just saying the timelines are not dissimilar as to where he is now (beginning his fourth year).  That’s all.  He was better when called upon last year, so that gives some room for optimism, even if it is for decent play as a backup or third S.  

Barnett as a starter, if healthy because either Graham or Sweat is not available is okay with me.  He is a serviceable starter.  I don’t think and never did that Barnett has the athleticism to compare with either Graham and especially not Sweat.  Not every player is going to be a star.  

37 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

To be fair to BLG, TJ Edwards would make plays in camp. White did too. Even Elliss has. Maybe Dean is just a gamer, but BLG has been talking about how invisible Dean has been in practices since last year. 

BLG might be the loudest but I have head just about every podcaster say the same thing too. It's not just BLG with an agenda. 

4 minutes ago, RunItBAck said:

Jamarcus Russel?

Brian Bosworth?

Tavon Austin? 

Trent Richardson? 

Rolando McClain if you were looking for a LB

Happens all the time...obviously Dean was great in college...but maybe he just needs time from his injury...there's a reason he dropped...we didn't get a steal until he becomes 1/4 of what he was in college...

Which is why I said it's not a guarantee he's good in the NFL. But I have no reason to assume right now he won't be until proven otherwise. Until he shows he can't play I'm going to assume he can based on how good he was in college.

1 minute ago, LeanMeanGM said:

BLG might be the loudest but I have head just about every podcaster say the same thing too. It's not just BLG with an agenda. 

Because it generates clicks, which is all that matters for them

when no data exists its easy to fling poo at the wall

21 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

No one is saying "it’s a given” that Wallace becomes Q or Epps.  Just saying the timelines are not dissimilar as to where he is now (beginning his fourth year).  That’s all.  He was better when called upon last year, so that gives some room for optimism, even if it is for decent play as a backup or third S.  

Barnett as a starter, if healthy because either Graham or Sweat is not available is okay with me.  He is a serviceable starter.  I don’t think and never did that Barnett has the athleticism to compare with either Graham and especially not Sweat.  Not every player is going to be a star.  

I’m fine if he’s a backup or third S. However it’s still super concerning if he’s starting week 1. Offseason activities and Tc don’t erase his 3 previous years. That’s why i said it was concerning if he starts week 1 and imo mikell/Epps are less likely to happen and aren’t the norm so why i said I’d be surprised if he made those strides based off his first 3 years. 
 
 But again i don’t think people would bring up Graham’s journey to get to where he is with Barnett and say he could be a viable starter in the model of graham like wallace in the mold of mikell. And if you look at their first 6 years it’s actually pretty similar. Missed time with injuries (80 vs. 65 games). sacks 23.5 vs. 21.5 (favors graham). TFL 38 vs. 36 favor if graham. Qb hits 78 vs. 43 favor of Barnett. Yet if eagles had Barnett with first team taking reps I’m guessing if graham/sweat was hurt likely few would’ve brought up graham comp due to how their careers began and most would say they were concerned if he’s starting going into week 1 (hypothetically if sweat/graham were hurt or  or not in the picture)

he could be Epps and mikell. He also could be jarrett, marsh, lindley and Ed Reynolds. That type of game can be played both ways. Don’t have the numbers but it’s likely we come up with more guys who have failed than succeed in what mikell and Epps did. I think mikell and Epps are less the norm which is why people would be concerned. If i said the 4 names i just mentioned back to Matt does that make my point just as valid as his mikell and Epps argument? 

1 minute ago, ToastJenkins said:

Because it generates clicks, which is all that matters for them

when no data exists its easy to fling poo at the wall

The data does exist. They aren't saying he's a bust or will be bad. They are saying he isn't noticeable in practice. I doubt every single beat writer got together to hatch this plan to generate clicks, especially when they couldn't shut up about TJ Edwards last year or Christian Ellis during OTA's. If they wanted to drive clicks about an overly popular college player on a team with SB aspirations, they would be talking him up as much as they can. 

1 hour ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

I can't believe there are people who actually think that K'Von Wallace might actually be a player. He's...not...any...good. Let's stop pretending.

August is an amazing month.

I think if Wallace creates a role it's closer to the line of scrimmage.  Maybe shorter distances can make up for his poor angles and bad tackling.  

 

51 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

Remember when the Flyers drafted Sam Morin in the first round? And after being drafted, he crawled through juniors and the minor leagues at such a slow rate that about four years after he was picked he still hadn't made the team? It was obvious to everyone and his brother that he was never going to amount to jack. Yet in years five and six and seven of the sojourn, you'd still hear some Flyers fans hyping the guy up, suggesting that he was actually going to become a quality defenseman for them. It was hilarious and sad at the same time. (Yes, I know Morin had injuries but those happened much later in the process, long after it was obvious he was no good, even if he was healthy.)

K'Von Wallace reminds me of that.

Did you know that Dawkins was also a Clemson graduate.  

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