34 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

Meant to say in consideration for being the greatest but your answer may still be the same

I don't understand the question.  Mahomes was viewed as extremely talented but also extremely raw.  He was viewed as a late first round pick.  Reid saw something in Mahomes and paid a premium to get him, moving up from the late 20s to #10 to select him.  Then Reid spent the next season developing him, rather than throwing him into the fire, as so many coaches do (see also Steichen this season Richardson, Shanahan with Lance, etc.).   And, as he did with McNabb, only turned the team over to him in year 2.

Did 'find' him, or did he develop him?   A little bit of both.  BUT... he had the option in the 2013 draft to pull the trigger on EJ Manuel, when he had the top pick.  He passed.  In 2014, he had the option to make a move up like he did for Mahomes to grab Johnny Manziel, he passed.   In 2015, he had the opportunity to make a massive push to get up to grab Winston or Mariota... but instead was counseling the Titans (Wisenhunt) that if you are sold on your QB, to hold pat and grab your guy.  In 2016, he could have pitched in like the Rams and Eagles did to move way up to grab Goff or Wentz... or make a smaller move up for Paxton Lynch.  Or wait and grab Christian Hackenberg later.   He passed on all of those options, and waited until 2017, when the magical moment hit for him to be able to pull the trigger on Mahomes... and he jumped up to grab him... aggressively.  So, for me, it wasn't any kind of serendipity for Reid to 'luck' into Mahomes.  Rather, the intersection of Reid and Mahomes, to me at least, appears to be a very carefully calculated move where Reid waited for the right moment, for the right player, and preferred to 'make do', with Alex Smith, rather than make a massive move like he did with Mahomes, for the wrong guy.  He had plenty of opportunity, but chose to bide his time.   

Now, in contrast, the Tom Brady situation in NE was a much more serendipitous situation.  If they had any inclination that he would become what he did... there's no way they wait until Round 6 to grab him.  He was, let's call it what it was, an after thought.  Brady wasn't even their first selection in the 6th round.  They somehow saw Antwan Harris as being more important to secure than Brady.  

8 minutes ago, RunItBAck said:

The questions have different answers.

Question 1. : No

Question 2. Yes, again, he's one of the best minds the NFL has ever had...he was already a "great" coach and regarded as one of the best defensive gurus before arriving in NE . He became Top 5 all-time with Brady, Reid hasn't and never will 

So what's silly?

 

Oh, Reid wouldn't have been considered great without Mahomes?   Ok, you are wrong on that.

Question 2.  No.   Belichek wouldn't have been considered a great HC, as that is what we are discussing here, without Brady, whom he lucked into.

 

Reid isn't top 5?   . OK.  We are done talking now.  

16 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

 

was hoping he could at least help carry them to a week 1 win against the Saints 

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Oh, Reid wouldn't have been considered great without Mahomes?   Ok, you are wrong on that.

Question 2.  No.   Belichek wouldn't have been considered a great HC, as that is what we are discussing here, without Brady, whom he lucked into.

 

Reid isn't top 5?   . OK.  We are done talking now.  

Let's see your rankings of top 5 HC all-time, I need a good laugh

2 minutes ago, RunItBAck said:

Let's see your rankings of top 5 HC all-time, I need a good laugh

1. Bill Walsh 

2. Vince Lombardi 

3. Reid

4. Belichick 

5. Don Shula 

1 hour ago, Mike030270 said:

Would AR be considered great if he didn't find Mahomes?

He was already in the hall of fame discussion, so I’d say yes.

I’d also add that part of what makes AR special is how good he has been with a multitude of QBs.

McNabb, Garcia, Vick, Smith, Mahomes— all guys who QBed dangerous offenses under Reid.

If it wasn’t Mahomes, he would have found another QB who almost certainly would have been successful under AR.

In fact, AR might be the greatest coach in NFL history at taking raw talent at QB and making it translate to the field. No small matter when you consider how many QBs with enormous talent have flopped in the NFL.

11 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I don't understand the question.  Mahomes was viewed as extremely talented but also extremely raw.  He was viewed as a late first round pick.  Reid saw something in Mahomes and paid a premium to get him, moviung up from the late 20s to #10 to select him.  Then Reid spent the next season developing him, rather than throwing him into the fire, as so many coaches do (see also Steichen this season Richardson, Shanahan with Lance, etc.).   And, as he did with McNabb, only turned the team over to him in year 2.

Did 'find' him, or did he develop him?   A little bit of both.  BUT... he had the option in the 2013 draft to pull the trigger on EJ Manuel, when he had the top pick.  He passed.  In 2014, he had the option to make a move up like he did for Mahomes to grab Johnny Manziel, he passed.   In 2015, he had the opportunity to make a massive push to get up to grab Winston or Mariota... but instead was counseling the Titans (Wisenhunt) that if you are sold on your QB, to hold pat and grab your guy.  In 2016, he could have pitched in like the Rams and Eagles did to move way up to grab Goff or Wentz... or make a smaller move up for Paxton Lynch.  Or wait and grab Christian Hackenberg later.   He passed on all of those options, and waited until 2017, when the magical moment hit for him to be able to pull the trigger on Mahomes... and he jumped up to grab him... aggressively.  So, for me, it wasn't any kind of serendipity for Reid to 'luck' into Mahomes.  Rather, the intersection of Reid and Mahomes, to me at least, appears to be a very carefully calculated move where Reid waited for the right moment, for the right player, and preferred to 'make do', with Alex Smith, rather than make a massive move like he did with Mahomes, for the wrong guy.  He had plenty of opportunity, but chose to bide his time.   

Now, in contrast, the Tom Brady situation in NE was a much more serendipitous situation.  If they had any inclination that he would become what he did... there's no way they wait until Round 6 to grab him.  He was, let's call it what it was, an after thought.  Brady wasn't even their first selection in the 6th round.  They somehow saw Antwan Harris as being more important to secure than Brady.  

I was bored and asked a random question because of all of the coach discussions. There wasn't really anything to it

Yea. Sorry about that lol

15 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I don't understand the question.  Mahomes was viewed as extremely talented but also extremely raw.  He was viewed as a late first round pick.  Reid saw something in Mahomes and paid a premium to get him, moviung up from the late 20s to #10 to select him.  Then Reid spent the next season developing him, rather than throwing him into the fire, as so many coaches do (see also Steichen this season Richardson, Shanahan with Lance, etc.).   And, as he did with McNabb, only turned the team over to him in year 2.

Did 'find' him, or did he develop him?   A little bit of both.  BUT... he had the option in the 2013 draft to pull the trigger on EJ Manuel, when he had the top pick.  He passed.  In 2014, he had the option to make a move up like he did for Mahomes to grab Johnny Manziel, he passed.   In 2015, he had the opportunity to make a massive push to get up to grab Winston or Mariota... but instead was counseling the Titans (Wisenhunt) that if you are sold on your QB, to hold pat and grab your guy.  In 2016, he could have pitched in like the Rams and Eagles did to move way up to grab Goff or Wentz... or make a smaller move up for Paxton Lynch.  Or wait and grab Christian Hackenberg later.   He passed on all of those options, and waited until 2017, when the magical moment hit for him to be able to pull the trigger on Mahomes... and he jumped up to grab him... aggressively.  So, for me, it wasn't any kind of serendipity for Reid to 'luck' into Mahomes.  Rather, the intersection of Reid and Mahomes, to me at least, appears to be a very carefully calculated move where Reid waited for the right moment, for the right player, and preferred to 'make do', with Alex Smith, rather than make a massive move like he did with Mahomes, for the wrong guy.  He had plenty of opportunity, but chose to bide his time.   

Now, in contrast, the Tom Brady situation in NE was a much more serendipitous situation.  If they had any inclination that he would become what he did... there's no way they wait until Round 6 to grab him.  He was, let's call it what it was, an after thought.  Brady wasn't even their first selection in the 6th round.  They somehow saw Antwan Harris as being more important to secure than Brady.  

Very well said.

I’d also emphasize the Vick project. To take a guy who was always more of an athlete than a QB, who had been out of the NFL for multiple years, and then turn him into an actual QB after years in prison was an absolutely remarkable coaching job.

1 hour ago, Sack that QB said:

The Eagles are the only team playing Thursday? After playing on Saturday. Kinda weird.

I'll have to check, but I think the Browns are playing on Thursday also.

 Chuck Noll  and Landry are 2 for me 

Levy would be if he could get his team over the hump 

As much as I liked the Dolphins when I was a kid and as much as I respected Shula as a head coach, I'm not sure I would put him ahead of Joe Gibbs.

Feels like there should be about ten coaches in the top five of all time.

11 minutes ago, TEW said:

Very well said.

I’d also emphasize the Vick project. To take a guy who was always more of an athlete than a QB, who had been out of the NFL for multiple years, and then turn him into an actual QB after years in prison was an absolutely remarkable coaching job.

Agreed, just that he was focused on Mahomes.  So, I also focused on Mahomes.

29 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

1. Bill Walsh 

2. Vince Lombardi 

3. Reid

4. Belichick 

5. Don Shula 

this pains me to say but i'd put joe gibbs ahead of reid , didn't he win 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's 

28 minutes ago, TEW said:

He was already in the hall of fame discussion, so I’d say yes.

I’d also add that part of what makes AR special is how good he has been with a multitude of QBs.

McNabb, Garcia, Vick, Smith, Mahomes— all guys who QBed dangerous offenses under Reid.

If it wasn’t Mahomes, he would have found another QB who almost certainly would have been successful under AR.

In fact, AR might be the greatest coach in NFL history at taking raw talent at QB and making it translate to the field. No small matter when you consider how many QBs with enormous talent have flopped in the NFL.

Dangerous offenses under Smith, Garcia ? Mcnaab is even questionable compared to Vick/Mahomes 🤣

Watson vs ESP, pick your sides!

IMO, Walsh gets a lot of points as being the great innovator, rather than being a 'leader of men'.  In the latter category, you'll find folks like Halas, Lombardi, Shula, and Parcells.  In today's game its Harbaugh and Tomlin. 

Andy is both.  He's been defining the modern passing offense while leading teams for long tenures.

Further, on the innovator point, that is why you see hot coordinators flame out.  Head coaching is a very different skill set from game planning.

2 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

As much as I liked the Dolphins when I was a kid and as much as I respected Shula as a head coach, I'm not sure I would put him ahead of Joe Gibbs.

Feels like there should be about ten coaches in the top five of all time.

  That's not how math works, but I think I get your meaning. I think it's fair to say that you could easy make the case for about 10 different coaches for top 5.

 

I think that there would need to be a dividing line somewhere between "Founders" and "Modern Era", and the real argument would be about where that is... and likely the easiest line to draw would be the NFL-AFL merger (1970?).

Guys like Halas, Lambeau and Brown would likely be best placed in the top 5 of the "Founders".  With that set up, that almost necessitates that Lombardi go into the Founders classification as well as most of his success happened prior to the merger, and because of his dominance leading up to the merger, and winning the first two Super Bowls, he was given the honor of the trophy being named after him.  That, in my mind, forces him in to a time that pre-dates the 'modern era', plus the merger wasn't finalized until AFTER the second SB had been played, and Lombardi had reached his high water mark.

 

7 minutes ago, vaeagle2 said:

this pains me to say but i'd put joe gibbs ahead of reid , didn't he win 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's 

Yup.  Theismann, Williams (as the backup... Schroeder was their starter that year) and Rypien.

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Yup.  Theismann, Williams and Rypien.

Good point. I grew up in the horse racing business, my Dad was a trainer and if you asked him who was the best trainer on the grounds, he would always say "the guy with the best horses." Having the best QB in any era is linked to being evaluated as a great coach. Gibbs did a lot with QBs who were not the best of their time. So did Parcells. 

10 minutes ago, Next_Up said:

Good point. I grew up in the horse racing business, my Dad was a trainer and if you asked him who was the best trainer on the grounds, he would always say "the guy with the best horses." Having the best QB in any era is linked to being evaluated as a great coach. Gibbs did a lot with QBs who were not the best of their time. So did Parcells. 

On Parcells, he gets a lot of credit for his defensive prowess.  He had LT, maybe the best defender in the history of the league, while in NY.  I see some Phil Jackson in his legacy.

43 minutes ago, vaeagle2 said:

this pains me to say but i'd put joe gibbs ahead of reid , didn't he win 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's 

I'm not going to rate one coach above another here but the first thing that impressed me about Gibbs was that he came from the Air Coryell system, I expected him to follow in that design, but instead he came up with the best running attack in the NFL, maybe ever. The Hogs and the Counter-Trey. Great stuff.

48 minutes ago, DEagle7 said:

Watson vs ESP, pick your sides!

Hmmm not sure I trust Watson's judgement.  Can't put my finger in it.. I mean on it

This has the play that HE and I commented on in-game. Tremendous range by Brown. 

1 hour ago, DEagle7 said:

Watson vs ESP, pick your sides!

A lot of people will pick Watson because ESP rubs them the wrong way.