Coulda Woulda Shoulda is awesome. Randall Cunningham is always the GoaT.

Too bad its just coulda shoulda woulda and does not count.

 

Calvin Johnson could not be on another team because he never demanded a trade, or failed to take the money in contract extensions, and then he quit.

He deserves no coulda shoulda woulda. He was happy to take money on a bad to mediocre team then he was happy to retire.

 

4 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

Ok? McNabb was a good QB. He had his faults but ppl still love crapping on him. The success he had with the weapons he had is more than respectable. 

It’s not people saying Mcnabb was bad. It’s relativity. Was he better than Steve Young? Was he a better passer than Tony  Romo? These are the questions he’s asking 

1 minute ago, SkippyX said:

Coulda Woulda Shoulda is awesome. Randall Cunningham is always the GoaT.

Too bad its just coulda shoulda woulda and does not count.

 

Calvin Johnson could not be on another team because he never demanded a trade, or failed to take the money in contract extensions, and then he quit.

He deserves no coulda shoulda woulda. He was happy to take money on a bad to mediocre team then he was happy to retire.

 

I would try and debate but you’ll just cry to the mods and get me suspended again 

1 minute ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

It’s not people saying Mcnabb was bad. It’s relativity. Was he better than Steve Young? Was he a better passer than Tony  Romo? These are the questions he’s asking 

He was better than Jeff Garcia and whoever he had in Buffalo. Was Palmer his QB in Cincy? I think McNabb had a better career than Palmer. 

3 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

I would try and debate but you’ll just cry to the mods and get me suspended again 

Now explain your behavior last time. Was it a frame job or were you over the top offensive? I rarely report anyone and have no idea if I reported you. Are you on a 2nd account?

AFAIK I have never even had you on ignore.

 

I will warn the new crew that is starting to lay off harassing me about my previous valid reporting of people for harassment.

If 5 of you think its cool and fun you will just wind up being the new punks.

Its weaksauce straw man BS.

6 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

Moss was a great player but Megatron was the guy you create in Madden that is 99 everything. 

Megaton is an all timer. I think he likely is view even more highly than he already is if he didn’t spend his career in Detroit and had more playoff chances like TO and Moss did.  

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I hear the Moss argument... but I don't know that there was something that Moss could do that Megatron couldn't do.  

 

Hard to compare... but Megatron has a higher reception per game rate (5.4 vs. 4.5), higher yards per game (86.1 vs. 70.1), yards per target (8.9 vs. 8.8) and yards per reception (15.9 vs 15.6).   Oh, and more rushing yards on fewer attempts, for whatever good that means, and a rushing TD.  Moss had none.
Moss has higher Tds/game (0.71 vs. 0.61), higher catch % (56.4% vs. 55.7%).

Moss was 1st team All-Pro 4x.  Megatron was 1st team All-Pro 3x, 2nd team AP 1x.   
Moss was a Pro Bowler 6 times.  Megatron was a Pro Bowler 6 times (all consecutive for his last 6 seasons).... 

 

And then the big question... Megatron retired during his prime.  What could he have done if he continued to play another 4-5 years?  It's projection, so no one can know.  

But, for my money, I'd take a prime Calvin Johnson over any WR in their prime not named Jerry Rice.

Yeah, it’s close. I wouldn’t blame anyone for taking Megatron.

But Moss at his best — especially young Moss — was like a 6’4” Desean Jackson with his speed and elusiveness in the open field. I’ve never seen a WR as impactful as Moss was on that Vikings team. He changed everything for his offense when he stepped on the field.
 

Check out the speed at 3:55… just absurd.

https://youtu.be/uESJlMw_lbg

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Megaton is an all timer. I think he likely is view even more highly than he already is if he didn’t spend his career in Detroit and had more playoff chances like TO and Moss did.  

Man, his game after Jerry Jones taunted him was amazing.

3 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Helps the offense *maybe* score TDs.  Yards mean jack crap if you aren't scoring.  And scoring doesn't mean as much if you aren't scoring touchdowns instead of settling for field goals.  This isn't fantasy football.  This is real football.  And in real football you don't get awarded points simply for gaining yards.  Meanwhile if you score a touchdown you get the most amount of points you can get in a single play in the game. 

 

Calvin Johnson had 1,900+ yards in 2012 but he only scored 5 TDs.  The Lions offense as a whole only scored 39 total touchdowns that year.  Randy Moss alone had 23 TDs in 2007.  

 

Is the 24 more receptions and 471 more yards that Calvin Johnson had really worth more to you than the 18 more touchdowns that Randy Moss had?  Because that's what you're saying.  

Yes it’s worth more, because Calvin Johnson has as little control over the other 11 players on his offense as Randy has on his. As much control of offensive identity as Randy has on his. Moving the ball is the primary requirement for scoring points. A TD only happens after the drive has been progressed to a circumstance that allows a TD play. Sometimes it’s an 80 yard bomb, but most of the time it’s a 5-15 yard cap on a 70+ yard drive.

The 2007 Patriots did not need Randy Moss to create those drives on the same level that Detroit needed Calvin to. Whether or not Detroit failed to capitalize on those drives is not consequential to Calvin, particularly if the defense knows to triple him in the redzone when they don’t have close to the spread out offense NE had in 2007. The primary role of the receiver is to move the football between the 20’s. If Calvin is needed as a decoy because everyone knows he’s all the offense has, then that’s his role. Randy Moss on the Lions would have been little different.

6 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

He was better than Jeff Garcia and whoever he had in Buffalo. Was Palmer his QB in Cincy? I think McNabb had a better career than Palmer. 

I think it must have been Dalton. Palmer was at least a Raider at that point, if not a Cardinal.

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Megaton is an all timer. I think he likely is view even more highly than he already is if he didn’t spend his career in Detroit and had more playoff chances like TO and Moss did.  

The Detroit thing is why I think he retired so early... same as Barry.   

Moss has this ugly nasty bit in Oakland that can fairly drag him down some.

He was amazing but I get why some people might ding him for taking money and not trying.

I'm talking some people putting him at 5 instead of 2 or 3, nothing drastic.

Just now, Iggles_Phan said:

The Detroit thing is why I think he retired so early... same as Barry.   

100s of adults just went to another team.

33 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Foolish people then.  Imagine not valuing the ability to score TDs at a high rate when its TDs that score the most points the game has to offer and yards don't score any points unless you finish the drive. 

 

Let's expose this further.  Who had the better season at WR?  Which one would you take if you could have one this year from DeVonta or AJ?

Calvin Johnson in 2012 with 122 receptions, 1,964 yards and 5 TDs

Or

Randy Moss in 2007 with 98 receptions, 1,493 yards and 23 TDs

I'm taking Moss all day because I value TDs more than yards and receptions 

Here is TD rates for some top WRs over the years.

T.O 7.0 meaning for every 7 receptions he'd get a TD 

Rice 7.8 though if one were to just take his SF career it would be much better 

Cris Carter all he does is catch TDs 8.4

Marvin Harrison the record holder for most rec in a season 8.6

Antonio Brown who some people think is a top  5 all time WR 11.1...🥱

Megatron 8.8

Randy Moss 6.2!

sorry but I'm taking Moss.

2 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The Detroit thing is why I think he retired so early... same as Barry.   

He also was beat up and tired of the league and not really protecting the players. He wrote a book about it

6 hours ago, vaeagle2 said:

this pains me to say but i'd put joe gibbs ahead of reid , didn't he win 3 superbowls with 3 different QB's 

Two were in strike seasons so it’s a bit more murky IMO. 

1 minute ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

He also was beat up and tired of the league and not really protecting the players. He wrote a book about it

What?  Playing a game 4 days after another game seems perfectly safe.  

1 minute ago, paco said:

Two were in strike seasons so it’s a bit more murky IMO. 

Meh... it was a strike season for all the other teams too.  

2 minutes ago, Utebird said:

I'm taking Moss all day because I value TDs more than yards and receptions 

Here is TD rates for some top WRs over the years.

T.O 7.0 meaning for every 7 receptions he'd get a TD 

Rice 7.8 though if one were to just take his SF career it would be much better 

Cris Carter all he does is catch TDs 8.4

Marvin Harrison the record holder for most rec in a season 8.6

Antonio Brown who some people think is a top  5 all time WR 11.1

Megatron 8.8

Randy Moss 6.2!

sorry but I'm taking Moss.

Moss created TDs on his own like few others ever have. His speed generated TDs like Desean Jackson where all you needed to do was not under throw him too much, and his leaping ability and body control created TDs like Evans.

2007 Moss was sick but 1987 Rice had 22 TDs in 12 real games  ( 1 not played and 3 scab games that year)

That was the year Reggie had 21 sacks in 12 real games.

 

BTW, the Montana in SBs thing is great but try this one. Rice had 589 yards and 8 TDs in 4 SBs  (17.9 a catch)

11 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The Detroit thing is why I think he retired so early... same as Barry.   

I was glad they actually dealt Stafford so he could go somewhere and have a chance to win. after he left they finally began fixing their oline and it became good after years where they needed too. 

15 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Yes it’s worth more, because Calvin Johnson has as little control over the other 11 players on his offense as Randy has on his. As much control of offensive identity as Randy has on his. Moving the ball is the primary requirement for scoring points. A TD only happens after the drive has been progressed to a circumstance that allows a TD play. Sometimes it’s an 80 yard bomb, but most of the time it’s a 5-15 yard cap on a 70+ yard drive.

The 2007 Patriots did not need Randy Moss to create those drives on the same level that Detroit needed Calvin to. Whether or not Detroit failed to capitalize on those drives is not consequential to Calvin, particularly if the defense knows to triple him in the redzone when they don’t have close to the spread out offense NE had in 2007. The primary role of the receiver is to move the football between the 20’s. If Calvin is needed as a decoy because everyone knows he’s all the offense has, then that’s his role. Randy Moss on the Lions would have been little different.

 

Lions weren't scoring that many points in 2012 though.  All those yards for nothing.  If you're able to rack up yards while you're starting drives 80 yards from the endzone but your team is rarely getting in the endzone at the end of drives then what is the great value of that that makes it greater than actually getting many TDs?  It's not a quality if you are being taken out of the game when the field shortens and you get in the redzone.  But it says a lot if you are that great and still you cannot be stopped from getting in the endzone despite the attention the defenses are giving you as a great player.

 Also you trying to diminish Randy's impact on the 2007 Patriots offense just further discredits taking anything you say in the future further.  Patriots went from scoring 385 points in 2006 without Randy Moss to scoring 589 points in 2007 which at the time was the most points ever scored in a season by a NFL offense.  

 

24 receptions and 471 yards is not more valuable than 18 touchdowns.  Only if the offense was getting 19 touchdowns out of those 24 more receptions and 471 more yards would that make sense and be true. 

 

122 receptions for 1,964 yards and 5 TDs that Calvin Johnson had in 2012 is just flat out not as valuable and helpful as the 98 receptions, 1,493 yards and 23 TDs that Randy Moss had in 2007.  It just isn't and the impact on the success of both offenses shows it.  

 

 

6 minutes ago, paco said:

Two were in strike seasons so it’s a bit more murky IMO. 

Its murky since Gibbs beat the real Cowboys with fake DC players in 1987

The 30 for 30 on it was really good.

1982 was just weird with a 9 game season but he did get back and lose in 1983

 

I think its close now (I'd put Reid ahead) but Reid is nowhere near done.

If it’s down to Moss, Owens, and Johnson their career stats extrapolate out pretty similar between the three, as far as YPC, catch %, yards per game, etc.  They all played the majority of their careers with good (not great) QBs.  For me it would come down to:

One game — I’ll take Owens.  Elite drive and did more with suspect (at times) hands.  After one week I’d want to punch him in the head, so get him gone.  He was a cancer.

One season — I’ll take Moss.  He would do more to create no-win game plans for the defenses, and it might be a season before he becomes a distraction and starts leaving the field before the game is over.

That means I’ll take Megatron for the long term as a teammate and elite WR1.  Owens was a cancer, Moss was a distraction, and Johnson was an enigma

10 minutes ago, TEW said:

Moss created TDs on his own like few others ever have. His speed generated TDs like Desean Jackson where all you needed to do was not under throw him too much, and his leaping ability and body control created TDs like Evans.

Yup, he was the best deep threat the NFL has seen but he was also an elite red zone threat as well with his length leaping ability And body control 

Desean is right up at the top as a all time deep threat but he wasnt a complete WR, he was t going to moss anybody and win 50/50 balls nor was he going to be a big red zone target, but get him in space and he can run past dudes, or just line him up and let him run past dudes which he was elite at.

For reference his TD rate was 11.0, not bad for probably the smallest of the guys I listed.

I mean moss was 6'4" TO 6'3" Megatron 6'5"

Closest comparison size wise would be Marvin Harrison but he and Desean had two totally different skill sets.

Mike Evans 8.4