2 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

If it’s down to Moss, Owens, and Johnson their career stats extrapolate out pretty similar between the three, as far as YPC, catch %, yards per game, etc.  They all played the majority of their careers with good (not great) QBs.  For me it would come down to:

One game — I’ll take Owens.  Elite drive and did more with suspect (at times) hands.  After one week I’d want to punch him in the head, so get him gone.  He was a cancer.

One season — I’ll take Moss.  He would do more to create no-win game plans for the defenses, and it might be a season before he becomes a distraction and starts leaving the field before the game is over.

That means I’ll take Megatron for the long term as a teammate and elite WR1.  Owens was a cancer, Moss was a distraction, and Johnson was an enigma

Interesting breakdown.

 

Randy Moss 40 in 1998   4.25

Cheetah in 2015              4.29

 

Moss was 6'4" 210 and faster than Cheetah almost 20 years earlier.

12 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

2007 Moss was sick but 1987 Rice had 22 TDs in 12 real games  ( 1 not played and 3 scab games that year)

That was the year Reggie had 21 sacks in 12 real games.

 

BTW, the Montana in SBs thing is great but try this one. Rice had 589 yards and 8 TDs in 4 SBs  (17.9 a catch)

Yup and even though rice had 22 tds in 12 games and white had 21 sacks in 12 games

Elway won MVP 🤷‍♂️

1 minute ago, Utebird said:

Yup and even though rice had 22 tds in 12 games and white had 21 sacks in 12 games

Montana won MVP 🤷‍♂️

Look at the voting and Elway won in 1987

https://mvpvoting.wordpress.com/1981-1990/

The voters shamed themselves.

Montana only played 9 real games along with 2 scab games and Young was 2-1 with 10 TDs and 0 picks.

Those Montana votes should have all gone to Rice.

Just now, SkippyX said:

Look at the voting and Elway won in 1987

https://mvpvoting.wordpress.com/1981-1990/

The voters shamed themselves.

Yes I mis spoke was just about to change it to elway.

Good looking out👍

11 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

Lions weren't scoring that many points in 2012 though.  All those yards for nothing.  If you're able to rack up yards while you're starting drives 80 yards from the endzone but your team is rarely getting in the endzone at the end of drives then what is the great value of that that makes it greater than actually getting many TDs?  It's not a quality if you are being taken out of the game when the field shortens and you get in the redzone.  But it says a lot if you are that great and still you cannot be stopped from getting in the endzone despite the attention the defenses are giving you as a great player.

 Also you trying to diminish Randy's impact on the 2007 Patriots offense just further discredits taking anything you say in the future further.  Patriots went from scoring 385 points in 2006 without Randy Moss to scoring 589 points in 2007 which at the time was the most points ever scored in a season by a NFL offense.  

 

24 receptions and 471 yards is not more valuable than 18 touchdowns.  Only if the offense was getting 19 touchdowns out of those 24 more receptions and 4710 more yards would that make sense and be true. 

 

122 receptions for 1,964 yards and 5 TDs that Calvin Johnson had in 2012 is just flat out not as valuable and helpful as the 98 receptions, 1,493 yards and 23 TDs that Randy Moss had in 2007.  It just isn't and the impact on the success of both offenses shows it.  

 

 

This isn’t an argument that yards are worth more than TDs. It’s not a yardsboard as Billy Davis famously stated. The argument is WR yards are worth more than WR TDs. The offense does not care if a WR or a RB or a TE score the TD. Whether or not it’s the WR is often relative to the usage rate of the WR, but sometimes not. Whether or not the TD-catcher is the WR in question is inconsequential to the offense as long as the TD is scored.

If Randy Moss scored 12 less TDs in 2007 and ended with a more common 11, NE’s insane offense would have still scored most of those TDs. If Calvin Johnson’s 1900 yards were removed from Detroit’s offense, they’re substantially worse than the limited threat they were to begin with. The next two WRs on the depth chart probably don’t come close to that yard mark combined. 
 

Whether or not Detroit was scoring when Calvin wasn’t getting the ball is not of consequence to Calvin, just as NE’s ability to score at will even when not giving Randy the Ball is not an indictment on Randy. Every time that season Randy caught a 70 yard TD bomb, the fact that Randy scored the TD was a luxury; Randy being the only one on the field to haul in a 70 yard pass was a necessity.

2 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Look at the voting and Elway won in 1987

https://mvpvoting.wordpress.com/1981-1990/

The voters shamed themselves.

Montana only played 9 real games along with 2 scab games and Young was 2-1 with 10 TDs and 0 picks.

Those Montana votes should have all gone to Rice.

Yup elway had 19 tds and 13 ints.

Rice had more tds than the QB that won MVP🤔

1 minute ago, Utebird said:

Yes I mis spoke was just about to change it to elway.

Good looking out👍

Montana beat Ultimate Weapon Randall in 1990 but it was more about what Joe did from playoffs 1988 through the 1990 season.

Randall had the better stats but Joe was the GoaT so its not as crazy as 1987 Elway even if I don't like the result.

31 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Now explain your behavior last time. Was it a frame job or were you over the top offensive? I rarely report anyone and have no idea if I reported you. Are you on a 2nd account?

AFAIK I have never even had you on ignore.

 

I will warn the new crew that is starting to lay off harassing me about my previous valid reporting of people for harassment.

If 5 of you think its cool and fun you will just wind up being the new punks.

Its weaksauce straw man BS.

Whoever created a new thread complaining about there being baseball or basketball talk in the blog I told to grow a pair and they reported me like a little bish and I got suspended for two weeks….. 

Anyone who reports anyone is weaksauce x1000

I like to talk about Moss and Sapp this year.

They were both amazing talents who fell in the draft for dumb reasons...

27 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

I think it must have been Dalton. Palmer was at least a Raider at that point, if not a Cardinal.

It was Carson’s last year with Cincinnati. They sucked and drafted Dalton the year after because Palmer was "planning to retire”.

9 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Montana beat Ultimate Weapon Randall in 1990 but it was more about what Joe did from playoffs 1988 through the 1990 season.

Randall had the better stats but Joe was the GoaT so its not as crazy as 1987 Elway even if I don't like the result.

Yup in 90 randall was voted MVP by I think the Maxwell club???

Randall had more passing tds less ints and 800+more rushing yards with 5 rushing tds to montannas 1, Randall  should have easily  won it in 90, seemed they gave it to montanna as a lifetime achievement award ...😒

2 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

This isn’t an argument that yards are worth more than TDs. It’s not a yardsboard as Billy Davis famously stated. The argument is WR yards are worth more than WR TDs. The offense does not care if a WR or a RB or a TE score the TD. Whether or not it’s the WR is often relative to the usage rate of the WR, but sometimes not. Whether or not the TD-catcher is the WR in question is inconsequential to the offense as long as the TD is scored.

If Randy Moss scored 12 less TDs in 2007 and ended with a more common 11, NE’s insane offense would have still scored most of those TDs. If Calvin Johnson’s 1900 yards were removed from Detroit’s offense, they’re substantially worse than the limited threat they were to begin with. The next two WRs on the depth chart probably don’t come close to that yard mark combined. 
 

Whether or not Detroit was scoring when Calvin wasn’t getting the ball is not of consequence to Calvin, just as NE’s ability to score at will even when not giving Randy the Ball is not an indictment on Randy. Every time that season Randy caught a 70 yard TD bomb, the TD was a luxury; the 70 yards were a necessity.

You’ve got it backwards… TDs are the necessity. Yards are at best a correlation.

Just look at sports outcome modeling. It’s all based on points. Yards can help you score points, but scoring points is the point of the sport.

1 minute ago, SkippyX said:

I like to talk about Moss and Sapp this year.

They were both amazing talents who fell in the draft for dumb reasons...

Hopefully Carter can replicate Sapp’s success.

31 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Megaton is an all timer. I think he likely is view even more highly than he already is if he didn’t spend his career in Detroit and had more playoff chances like TO and Moss did.  

Sure. He was on a team that went 0-16. His only knock was that he didn’t seem to be obsessed with ball like most greats. 

8 minutes ago, TEW said:

You’ve got it backwards… TDs are the necessity. Yards are at best a correlation.

Just look at sports outcome modeling. It’s all based on points. Yards can help you score points, but scoring points is the point of the sport.

Whether he catches a 70 yard TD or if he catches a 69 yard pass, goes out of bounds at the 1 and the RB powers it in has no impact on the outcome aside from taking 30 seconds off the clock. But they require him to put them in position to score the TD, that’s my meaning.

I agree Scoring is of course the point to it, but it’s of little consequence whether Randy does it or someone else does. But Randy is needed for the yards gained to create the scoring opportunity regardless.

2 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

Sure. He was on a team that went 0-16. His only knock was that he didn’t seem to be obsessed with ball like most greats. 

all i know is if I was the head coach of that 0-16 team one game I’m just throwing every single pass to Megatron and seeing what happens. We’re going winles anyways F it I’m doing it.

13 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

This isn’t an argument that yards are worth more than TDs. It’s not a yardsboard as Billy Davis famously stated. The argument is WR yards are worth more than WR TDs. The offense does not care if a WR or a RB or a TE score the TD. Whether or not it’s the WR is often relative to the usage rate of the WR, but sometimes not. Whether or not the TD-catcher is the WR in question is inconsequential to the offense as long as the TD is scored.

If Randy Moss scored 12 less TDs in 2007 and ended with a more common 11, NE’s insane offense would have still scored most of those TDs. If Calvin Johnson’s 1900 yards were removed from Detroit’s offense, they’re substantially worse than the limited threat they were to begin with. The next two WRs on the depth chart probably don’t come close to that yard mark combined. 
 

Whether or not Detroit was scoring when Calvin wasn’t getting the ball is not of consequence to Calvin, just as NE’s ability to score at will even when not giving Randy the Ball is not an indictment on Randy. Every time that season Randy caught a 70 yard TD bomb, the fact that Randy scored the TD was a luxury; Randy being the only one on the field to haul in a 70 yard pass was a necessity.

 

If to you 471 more receiving yards are not more valuable than 18 more touchdowns, than how lower does that number need to be before 18 more touchdowns is more valuable?   Are 18 more touchdowns more valuable than just 400 more yards?  Just 200 more yards?  Just 100 more yards?  What's the cutoff to make this absurd proclamation that 4u1 yards is more valuable than 18 touchdowns?

 

You're now also doubling down to the point that you are making increasingly crazy statements. If Moss scored just 11 TDs instead of 23 then the Patriots would have still scored most of those points?  What are you talking about?  How is it possible for someone to so completely undervalue the elite ability to score a lot of touchdowns as if scoring touchdowns mean nothing and are just an automatic handout that is given?

This is not fantasy football.

3 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Whether he catches a 70 yard TD or if he catches a 69 yard pass, goes out of bounds at the 1 and the RB powers it in has no impact on the outcome aside from taking 30 seconds off the clock. But they require him to put them in position to score the TD, that’s my meaning.

I agree Scoring is of course the point to it, but it’s of little consequence whether Randy does or someone else does. But Randy is needed for the yards gained regardless.

It is actually a huge difference.

One is a guaranteed 6 points with a ~92% chance at 1 additional point or a ~50% chance at 2 points.

The other is a series of high probability chances to get the outcome above.

2 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

If to you 471 more receiving yards are not more valuable than 18 more touchdowns, than how lower does that number need to be before 18 more touchdowns is more valuable?   Are 18 more touchdowns more valuable than just 400 more yards?  Just 200 more yards?  Just 100 more yards?  What's the cutoff to make this absurd proclamation that 4u1 yards is more valuable than 18 touchdowns?

 

You're now also doubling down to the point that you are making increasingly crazy statements. If Moss scored just 11 TDs instead of 23 then the Patriots would have still scored most of those points?  What are you talking about?  How is it possible for someone to so completely undervalue the elite ability to score a lot of touchdowns as if scoring touchdowns mean nothing and are just an automatic handout that is given?

This is not fantasy football.

You keep saying "it’s not fantasy football” but receiving TDs are THE fantasy football stat. Are you arguing against your own point?

And it all depends on where the 18 TDs and the 471 yards lie. When it’s the difference between 400 receiving yards and 971 receiving yards, then 18 TDs are worth significantly more. But the higher you go, the rarer air it is to reach those receiving thresholds. An already elite season of nearly 1500 yards by moss then then you add 471 on top of that? That’s a substantial difference. 

3 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Whether he catches a 70 yard TD or if he catches a 69 yard pass, goes out of bounds at the 1 and the RB powers it in has no impact on the offense. But they require him to put them in position to score the TD, that’s my meaning.

I agree Scoring is of course the point to it, but it’s of little consequence whether Randy does or someone else does.

It's of consequence when one is comparing players.

How many times did Megatron have a bunch of receptions and yards and first downs on a drive only to end in his team kicking a FG???

Moss was a closer, he scored TDs at a higher rate from anywhere in the field than Megatron 

You can say well he was in Detroit, yeah he was,catching balls from Matthew Stafford in a dome for 8 games a year. It's not like he was playing with some scrub qb his whole career while playing in the rain every game.

Calvin Johnson was a really good WR and a freak, Randy moss was better and freakier.

 

Just now, TEW said:

It is actually a huge difference.

One is a guaranteed 6 points with a ~92% chance at 1 additional point or a ~50% chance at 2 points.

The other is a series of high probability chances to get the outcome above.

High probability chances, yes. Not guaranteed. Still, a probability built on getting them to that scenario. Randy’s 23 TDs can be replaced, albeit not all of them, in a different scenario. Calvin’s 1900 receiving yards cannot. The WR is needed to move the ball down the field more than he is to score the TD

1 minute ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

You keep saying "it’s not fantasy football” but receiving TDs are THE fantasy football stat. Are you arguing against your own point?

And it all depends on where the 18 TDs and the 471 yards lie. When it’s the difference between 400 receiving yards and 971 receiving yards, then 18 TDs are worth significantly more. But the higher you go, the rarer air it is to reach those receiving thresholds. An already elite season of nearly 1500 yards by moss then then you add 471 on top of that? That’s a substantial difference. 

18 more tds is more of a substantial difference than 400 more yards and it's really not even close.

Not sure why you're digging your heels in on this and against RTK of all posters 

Maybe it's because it's RTK that you're digging your heels in on but he's right in this case.

3 minutes ago, Utebird said:

It's of consequence when one is comparing players.

How many times did Megatron have a bunch of receptions and yards and first downs on a drive only to end in his team kicking a FG???

Moss was a closer, he scored TDs at a higher rate from anywhere in the field than Megatron 

You can say well he was in Detroit, yeah he was,catching balls from Matthew Stafford in a dome for 8 games a year. It's not like he was playing with some scrub qb his whole career while playing in the rain every game.

Calvin Johnson was a really good WR and a freak, Randy moss was better and freakier.

 

Calvin has no power over his offense’s ability to score without him. If those drives led to TDs instead by some imaginary great redzone TE Detroit had, does that make Calvin’s season suddenly better? He has no control over that

Just now, Aerolithe_Lion said:

High probability chances, yes. Not guaranteed. Still, a probability built on getting them to that scenario. Randy’s 23 TDs can be replaced, albeit not all of them, in a different scenario. Calvin’s 1900 receiving yards cannot. The WR is needed to move the ball down the field more than he is to score the TD

Yes but it's not like randy moss had 23 tds for 23 yards, the guy had 1500 yards of moving the ball which you value to go along with 18 more tds than Megatron.