Following up a little on Driscoll, I suspect his technique skills come somewhat from his intelligence.  He was an AD Honor Roll and SEC Honor Roll player, a nominee for a post graduate scholarship and a Campbell Award nominee.  Now Cam Jurgen is no slouch there either. Big 10 Honor Roll and consistently on the Nebraska Scholar Athlete Honor Roll. Not that Steen is an academic failure, he graduated from Vanderbilt and was a graduate transfer to Alabama. (Major was Human Relations, like a QB we know).  Dickerson, BTW, won the Remington Award as a graduate student at Alabama, having graduated from Florida State where he was an ACC Honor Roll student.   Seeing a pattern here. 

1 minute ago, BigEFly said:

Following up a little on Driscoll, I suspect his technique skills come somewhat from his intelligence.  He was an AD Honor Roll and SEC Honor Roll player, a nominee for a post graduate scholarship and a Campbell Award nominee.  Now Cam Jurgen is no slouch there either. Big 10 Honor Roll and consistently on the Nebraska Scholar Athlete Honor Roll. Not that Steen is an academic failure, he graduated from Vanderbilt and was a graduate transfer to Alabama. (Major was Human Relations, like a QB we know).  Dickerson, BTW, won the Remington Award as a graduate student at Alabama, having graduated from Florida State where he was an ACC Honor Roll student.   Seeing a pattern here. 

Agreed... which is why I was certain (seemingly completely wrong) that he was drafted to be a center here.  It seemed to fit almost perfectly.  And maybe that was a part of the plan, and he just never got good at that part of the game.  Maybe he's not quick enough with his arm to snap the ball and get into position to block.  Maybe he's not accurate enough with a quick snap to the shotgun and so they quickly moved on from that notion.  I have no idea what might have happened there or if the team ever really gave him a look there, but his draft value, his athleticism, his intelligence, his short arms... it all pointed to OC for me.   I definitely missed the boat on that one.  

48 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

This is exactly why I was intrigued by the statement that was made.  It's a fun conversation to have... if someone actually has things to say about Driscoll vs. Vaitai.   And it is why I was so disappointed with the lack of any substance from jsb when I asked him to build his case.  

 

I am interested in which games Driscoll got snaps at LT.  Were these in games where the outcome was in hand and he was just finishing the game, or were they meaningful snaps with the game still in doubt?  I don't recall it and would be curious to go back and check them out.   His arms concern me greatly at OT... especially at LT.   He's much more of a guard in build that way, but not nearly as powerful, as you say.  BUT... that's why I've always seen him as much more of a center prospect.  He has great athleticism for that position and I think he's got smarts enough to handle it.  Of course, the drafting of Jurgens pretty much scuttled that idea though.

Against Jacksonville.
 

Read what Nick had to say about it:

https://www.si.com/nfl/eagles/news/jack-driscoll-delivers-as-eagles-sixth-man
 

"Jack Driscoll had played exactly zero offensive snaps this season through three weeks.

He got thrown into the fire Sunday.

Jordan Mailata was forced out of the game after just six snaps and Driscoll played the remaining 76 at left tackle. It was the first action at left tackle in his NFL career and he had to deal with a former top-10 pass rusher in Josh Allen for most of the afternoon.

It wasn’t a perfect outing from Driscoll but he did his job as a part of an offensive line that helped the Eagles rush for 210 yards in their 29-21 win over the Jaguars. All things considered, it was a gutty performance from Driscoll.

Remember, he’s not even the normal backup left tackle. That job was supposed to be Andre Dillard’s but he’s on IR with a forearm fracture. Driscoll was getting all of his training camp reps at right tackle and really didn’t start cross-training until the season began and Dillard got hurt.

Driscoll’s 76 snaps are the second-most in his three-year career.”

Now Opeta playing a lot of snaps for Dickerson may have made you forget this game but Driscoll did very well at LT. His injury bug the first couple of years was a concern but he is solid as a sixth man.  

12 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Like I said... he got a sizable contract, based on what he did here.  5 years, $50 M is a nice chunk of change.    I'll add that what Vaitai went on to do elsewhere is completely irrelevant to the conversation, which is what he did while he was here.  

 

I looked at the Eagles' record with and without Johnson recently to find that there's far more myth to that notion than actual facts.  In context, the Eagles record with Johnson versus without him isn't actually that amazingly different when ALL factors are considered.

But, let's discuss 2016 a little more in depth.  The Eagles came out in 2016 with a brand new HC, a rookie QB that played only a few snaps in the preseason with the 3s, and had some really easy opponents to start the year... and got off to a 3-0 start.   Game 1 - Browns (1-15), Game 2 - Bears (3-13), Game 3 - Steelers (11-5).  Eagles got to take advantage of the Steelers, who were coming off a division game (Bengals, the division champs the year before) and traveling to face an out of conference team before they were coming back home to face the Chiefs (a playoff opponent from the previous year).  Classic trap game for the Steelers.   During these games, the league started to get a bit of a handle on Pederson as a play caller, their offensive game plans and Wentz as a QB.  They dropped a close game in Game 4 to the 8-8 Lions.  Then Lane was suspended for 10 games.  So, they went 3-1 with Lane, with the 3 wins against 2 powderpuff squads and a team in a let down situation. 

The games to follow were against much better opponents Redskins (8-7-1), Vikings (8-8), Cowboys (13-3), Giants (11-5), Falcons (11-5), Seahawks (10-5-1).  Eagles were 2-4 in those 6 games with Vaitai at RT.  Not a bad showing considering the massive jump in the quality of opposition they faced, and the fact that they weren't going to sneak up on anyone anymore.   Then they lost the next 4 (without Vaitai) to Packers (10-6), Bengals (6-9-1), Redskins (8-7-1), Ravens (8-8).  Then they righted the ship and won the last two games when Lane returned... one game against the Giants... and the last one against the Cowboys.  Of course, the Cowboys had nothing to play for in that game and didn't play their starters as they were 13-2 going into the game and already had the top seed locked up, so that game is completely meaningless to any discussion and would have been a travesty had they lost it.

 

Vaitai's stats for 'sacks surrendered' is an interesting one, but again, without context.  Wentz was a known ball holder.  He got away with it a lot in 2017 and took sacks he shouldn't have, but also made ridiculous plays that he shouldn't have as well.  How many of the sacks were due to Wentz holding the ball too long, versus Vaitai just getting beat?  I don't know.  

 

I will circle back to @BigEFly's comments about Stoutland's impact.  Stoutland is a master at maximizing the players he has available to play at OL.  He obviously was able to get more less with Vaitai than the Lions, who have a very long history of getting less with more going back generations.  They are just a dysfunctional organization.  A player going there and underperforming is the norm, not the exception.  So, once again, anything that happened with Vaitai after he left here is irrelevant.  Vaitai, while here, put his market value up to the point that another team in the league saw value in him as a starter and paid him accordingly. 

The final piece of your post is also irrelevant to this discussion.  I never claimed that Vaitai should be a starting OT in the NFL.  We aren't discussing starters... we are discussing backups.  Driscoll seems to have proven he can be neither a starting OG nor starting OT in the NFL.  We'll see what happens with him when his rookie deal expires and see if any team wants to give him anywhere near $10M/year at any position.  Right now, I'd say that's a long shot.  I hope he does though.  It would be great for this team if he did.

A most excellent post.

Thought I'd chime in about these two guys. Vaitai is the bigger, stronger and slower of the two. His arms are longer by more than an inch. He was a bit out of position at LT, going against speed rushers but he was a battler. He can anchor. Driscoll is smaller, quicker, and has shorter arms. He does not anchor particularly well and rushers with longer arms give him fits. Calais Campbell chewed him up, but then, Campbell chews up a lot of people. Driscoll has better technique than Vaitai; his problem is that he is often physically overmatched. OTOH, he is more versatile, which gives him real value. His physical shortcomings are minimized in a zone blocking scheme where double teams are the rule rather than the exception.

On 5/26/2023 at 4:02 PM, Iggles_Phan said:

If the rules are that they can't gamble on the premises, then so be it.  It really isn't that big a deal.  If they can't abide by those rules, then they have a gambling problem.

I think any NFL player that risks a game check to place a bet has, at least, some impulsivity issues.  That being said, I get a ton of emails from Draft Kings when I rarely gamble.  The NFL has to acknowledge that they are paying these sites to market to their players and the potential conflict that creates.  The NFL should absolutely make sure players are not getting marketed to while they are on a team's roster. Also what does it say about the NFL endorsing this product if they don't really think it is moral for the players to make bets on non-NFL teams.  Finally, while the rule seem clear, I am not sure that is always the case.  I mean why is a bet placed on a personal device on a non-NFL sport  violating a rule. What if the player is just sitting in their car in the parking lot? What if it happened as they were walking into the facility or on the way out? 

24 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Against Jacksonville.
 

Read what Nick had to say about it:

https://www.si.com/nfl/eagles/news/jack-driscoll-delivers-as-eagles-sixth-man
 

"Jack Driscoll had played exactly zero offensive snaps this season through three weeks.

He got thrown into the fire Sunday.

Jordan Mailata was forced out of the game after just six snaps and Driscoll played the remaining 76 at left tackle. It was the first action at left tackle in his NFL career and he had to deal with a former top-10 pass rusher in Josh Allen for most of the afternoon.

It wasn’t a perfect outing from Driscoll but he did his job as a part of an offensive line that helped the Eagles rush for 210 yards in their 29-21 win over the Jaguars. All things considered, it was a gutty performance from Driscoll.

Remember, he’s not even the normal backup left tackle. That job was supposed to be Andre Dillard’s but he’s on IR with a forearm fracture. Driscoll was getting all of his training camp reps at right tackle and really didn’t start cross-training until the season began and Dillard got hurt.

Driscoll’s 76 snaps are the second-most in his three-year career.”

Now Opeta playing a lot of snaps for Dickerson may have made you forget this game but Driscoll did very well at LT. His injury bug the first couple of years was a concern but he is solid as a sixth man.  

Thank you!  

20 minutes ago, just relax said:

A most excellent post.

Thought I'd chime in about these two guys. Vaitai is the bigger, stronger and slower of the two. His arms are longer by more than an inch. He was a bit out of position at LT, going against speed rushers but he was a battler. He can anchor. Driscoll is smaller, quicker, and has shorter arms. He does not anchor particularly well and rushers with longer arms give him fits. Calais Campbell chewed him up, but then, Campbell chews up a lot of people. Driscoll has better technique than Vaitai; his problem is that he is often physically overmatched. OTOH, he is more versatile, which gives him real value. His physical shortcomings are minimized in a zone blocking scheme where double teams are the rule rather than the exception.

Appreciate the breakdown.   Thank you!

 

That's what I was hoping we could get into when the topic was first broached about Vaitai vs. Driscoll.

9 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I think any NFL player that risks a game check to place a bet has, at least, some impulsivity issues.  That being said, I get a ton of emails from Draft Kings when I rarely gamble.  The NFL has to acknowledge that they are paying these sites to market to their players and the potential conflict that creates.  The NFL should absolutely make sure players are not getting marketed to while they are on a team's roster. Also what does it say about the NFL endorsing this product if they don't really think it is moral for the players to make bets on non-NFL teams.  Finally, while the rule seem clear, I am not sure that is always the case.  I mean why is a bet placed on a personal device on a non-NFL sport  violating a rule. What if the player is just sitting in their car in the parking lot? What if it happened as they were walking into the facility or on the way out? 

Oh, the NFL's hands are as dirty as they can be with regard to their partnership with these gambling outlets.  Once again, they are making the money grab and ignoring everything else.  They pretend to be above it all, which is why they have these rules about what the players can and can't do with regard to it... but it is definitely a mixed signal from the league.  They want the money, with none of the scandal that it can produce.  They need to figure this out, or the rumblings about game fixing, point shaving and the rest will get bigger and louder.  And rather than having great games be remembered for their unpredictable outcomes (Immaculate Reception, Holy Roller, etc.) they will become referendums on whether or not games are fixed... penalty call on Bradberry at the end of the Super Bowl, versus non-PI call on egregious foul at the end of the NFC Divisional Round between the Vikings and Saints.  

 

32 minutes ago, NCiggles said:

I think any NFL player that risks a game check to place a bet has, at least, some impulsivity issues.  That being said, I get a ton of emails from Draft Kings when I rarely gamble.  The NFL has to acknowledge that they are paying these sites to market to their players and the potential conflict that creates.  The NFL should absolutely make sure players are not getting marketed to while they are on a team's roster. Also what does it say about the NFL endorsing this product if they don't really think it is moral for the players to make bets on non-NFL teams.  Finally, while the rule seem clear, I am not sure that is always the case.  I mean why is a bet placed on a personal device on a non-NFL sport  violating a rule. What if the player is just sitting in their car in the parking lot? What if it happened as they were walking into the facility or on the way out? 

Because that's the rule. It's as simple as that. Further, while NFL players can bet on other sports, NFL Personnel cannot bet on any sport or do any type of online gambling. Miles Austin was just recently suspended as an assistant coach because he was playing virtual blackjack for money. So it's completely reasonable to make the policy that no gambling at all can be on premises regardless of who it is so as not to muddy the workplace environment or cause more issues.

I've also heard a lot of ex-athletes say the rules are plastered all over the locker room and on premises that remind players exactly what is permitted and what is not. I have no reason to believe teams still don't do this, especially after the Calvin Ridley incident, especially especially after the Detroit Lions incident. 

Interesting wrinkle, I would think with Smith and Hopkins now sharing an agent that would make Hopkins to Philly even less likely than before. Also interesting this guy represents all NFCE high-ish profile guys. 

Gotta think the Eagles kelly green reveal will be in the next few weeks.

50 minutes ago, just relax said:

A most excellent post.

Thought I'd chime in about these two guys. Vaitai is the bigger, stronger and slower of the two. His arms are longer by more than an inch. He was a bit out of position at LT, going against speed rushers but he was a battler. He can anchor. Driscoll is smaller, quicker, and has shorter arms. He does not anchor particularly well and rushers with longer arms give him fits. Calais Campbell chewed him up, but then, Campbell chews up a lot of people. Driscoll has better technique than Vaitai; his problem is that he is often physically overmatched. OTOH, he is more versatile, which gives him real value. His physical shortcomings are minimized in a zone blocking scheme where double teams are the rule rather than the exception.

Stout and Jason Peters have impacted my thoughts on arm size a bit.  It can be compensated for more today than when you and I first started following football.  Like Castillo, Stout is very focused on hand use.  (Stout may be the most rounded OL coach I have seen in action.)  JP had a great punch. Combine that with a lightning quick kick step and a firm understanding of the set rule and he got in front of the defensive player fast.  But JP rarely engaged immediately in pass pro, where arm length can really be a factor. He anchored and punched and his punch rarely missed and was quite effective, even against speed rushers with great bend.  That combination of quickness, anchoring and violent punch compensated for his shorter arms. Driscoll has real good technique but he just struggles with anchoring and frankly, I have always suspected it was a lack of junk in the trunk.   Impossible to change arm length.  Do you believe anchoring can be developed?  Opeta, who is strong as a bull has a similar issue. 

4 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Stout and Jason Peters have impacted my thoughts on arm size a bit.  It can be compensated for more today than when you and I first started following football.  Like Castillo, Stout is very focused on hand use.  (Stout may be the most rounded OL coach I have seen in action.)  JP had a great punch. Combine that with a lightning quick kick step and a firm understanding of the set rule and he got in front of the defensive player fast.  But JP rarely engaged immediately in pass pro, where arm length can really be a factor. He anchored and punched and his punch rarely missed and was quite effective, even against speed rushers with great bend.  That combination of quickness, anchoring and violent punch compensated for his shorter arms. Driscoll has real good technique but he just struggles with anchoring and frankly, I have always suspected it was a lack of junk in the trunk.   Impossible to change arm length.  Do you believe anchoring can be developed?  Opeta, who is strong as a bull has a similar issue. 

No fat shaming.   Not cool.

 

14 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Because that's the rule. It's as simple as that. Further, while NFL players can bet on other sports, NFL Personnel cannot bet on any sport or do any type of online gambling. Miles Austin was just recently suspended as an assistant coach because he was playing virtual blackjack for money. So it's completely reasonable to make the policy that no gambling at all can be on premises regardless of who it is so as not to muddy the workplace environment or cause more issues.

I've also heard a lot of ex-athletes say the rules are plastered all over the locker room and on premises that remind players exactly what is permitted and what is not. I have no reason to believe teams still don't do this, especially after the Calvin Ridley incident, especially especially after the Detroit Lions incident. 

I don’t for a second believe that when Arkansas plays Texas that Jerruh doesn’t have friendly wagers with people in his orbit.  Some of this is ridiculous.  Say a parlay in the draft of what round a player might go in plus and over/under on draft choices from a given school plus an over/under on how many QBs in the first round.  And who the F cares where the bet was placed. But then again, I think suspending Pete Rose for life for betting on his team and himself is nuts.  (For the record, closest thing to betting is occasionally playing the Lottery.  Playing a game of chance with civil juries for decades removed any fun out of gambling for me.)

1 hour ago, BigEFly said:

Following up a little on Driscoll, I suspect his technique skills come somewhat from his intelligence.  He was an AD Honor Roll and SEC Honor Roll player, a nominee for a post graduate scholarship and a Campbell Award nominee.  Now Cam Jurgen is no slouch there either. Big 10 Honor Roll and consistently on the Nebraska Scholar Athlete Honor Roll. Not that Steen is an academic failure, he graduated from Vanderbilt and was a graduate transfer to Alabama. (Major was Human Relations, like a QB we know).  Dickerson, BTW, won the Remington Award as a graduate student at Alabama, having graduated from Florida State where he was an ACC Honor Roll student.   Seeing a pattern here. 

It's not an uncommon trait among their picks.  My sense with Driscoll is that it's possible for him to develop into a solid OG but he's not anything other than a stop gap at OT.  Could he be better than Vaitai? Sure, he could be better but I don't think he's had a stretch starting at LT where he's played as well as Vaitiai played.  

20 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

Gotta think the Eagles kelly green reveal will be in the next few weeks.

Can they hurry up already? Lol

 

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 

I'd have to go with 2017

8 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 

It is hard to say that a team that lost the Super Bowl is better than the team that actually won it.  I think Long is trying to be magnanimous, but no real case can be made for a Super Bowl loser over a winner.  The winner was better when it really mattered.  Any other comparison is merely about who is better 'on paper', but games aren't played on paper.  Gannon's ineptitude in the second half scuttled the Eagles in this Super Bowl... and Sirianni kicking a FG in the second half, versus Pederson going for it on 4th and 1 at mid-field in the 4th quartter and going for the TD on 4th and goal at the 1 that turned into the Philly Special at the end of the first half showed the difference in mentality.  Pederson managed that game with the thought that a FG was a loss for the offense and a win for the defense.  Sirianni managed the game much more in line with a much more traditional coaching philosophy.   

Edge to Pederson, Schwartz (getting more aggressive on that last meaningful possession for the Pats) and 2017 squad for understanding the moment better than Sirianni, Gannon (milquetoast defense on that final Chiefs' drive) and the 2022 squad.

Pretty good article on NFL.com about whether or not we are poised for a SB hangover: https://www.nfl.com/news/state-of-the-2023-philadelphia-eagles-jalen-hurts-and-co-appear-poised-to-avoid-

My favorite part:

 

Your first look at D'Andre Swift

27 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Your first look at D'Andre Swift

He looks like a total zero.

2 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

He looks like a total zero.

9 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

He looks like a total zero.