3 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Quez’s attention to detail is so bad, I’m not even sure the misfire to him (that HE is probably including in his description of Hurts’ play) was Hurts’ fault. Did Quez even run the route correctly? Did he get the correct depth?

The pass was right on him, he instantly caught it and turned his head.  This is craziness....

We've had rumors that Lurie meddles but even if he does it's nowhere near what other owners do

7 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

We've had rumors that Lurie meddles but even if he does it's nowhere near what other owners do

I'm not sure who made the decision to draft the little guy.  So far, it isn't paying dividends.  Stroud was IMO clearly the best QB prospect in the draft, and I don't think he'll be a franchise QB.  At least Young is finishing most of the games, though.  The guy Irsay reached for is getting knocked out of most of his.

17 minutes ago, mattwill said:

I personally do not have a problem with Harper's over aggressive base running in that situation.  His mind was on scoring and he took a calculated risk that Castellanos' hit was over Harris' head.  Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Disagree. Harper needs to know the situation. The outfielders were playing no doubles defense which means they were already deep, plus Harris is a damn good centerfielder. At worst, if Harper just stops on second and the ball is dropped, he probably scores anyway because chances are the ball probably ricochets off the wall. If the ball is caught, which it was, he easily gets back to first and then I'll take my chances with Stott coming up. Can't be having baserunning blunders like that in the postseason, especially against a 104-win Braves team. 

15 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Pretty much this, except blaming the play design. It’s an easy 2 yards. Hurts misfired on some throws, but it’s hyperbole to call it erratic. 

His pick was awful, although maybe he was expected Brown to do something else? Sirianni was ticked so I suspect that’s on Hurts. The sack he took where he stood in the pocket forever was probably his second worst play. 

But it wasn’t because it relied on Quez doing things he doesn’t do well.  Take a look at the first play of the game.  Completion to Quez on pretty much the same play design except Brown moves his man and Quez gets to ball in stride at about three yards deep and aligned to the hole.  The play in question has Quez running back five yards and not aligned with the hole to catch the ball.  Either flawed in design, Quez runs it wrong or Hurts poorly places the ball.  I go with the first because the design on the first one was a bunch.  On the one in question, Quez is inside.  Poor design, especially for Quez.  The stop and the run back screens don’t work for the Eagles regardless of who is running them.  The in stride do.  So I think it is play design.  I could be wrong but the failures suggest I am not.

2 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

The decision he made was a business decision, not a football decision.  Shortest distance between two points is a straight line... run perpendicular to the LOS, lower your shoulder and run at a seam.  He had a seam, with blockers and that's where he needed to go.  Plain and simple.  A good runner knows how to maximize a run by using his blockers to their best effect.  A runner seeking to avoid contact bounces wide.  He needed to put his foot in the ground and get upfield.  That's how to convert short yardage situations.  Bouncing wide normally ends badly in short yardage situations.

 

The thing is, bouncing wide is the annoying habit that Watkins displayed consistently when he was used as a kickoff returner. It seemed like an "always” thing for him to field the kick, run to about the ten yard line, and then head to the left sideline and get tackled short of the twenty.

I’m convinced that is why he lost that gig. Trusting him at any point to follow blocks inside and show toughness as a runner is asking for failure.

23 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

This is honestly baffling to me.

It was a very safe and effective call on 3rd and short, you just need your WR to play football there.

Too high or with too much zip and they turn into pick six too often.  Float and the DB steps into them. So there is a tendency to throw them low. Where only the receiver can get them but harder to catch.  Go outside and try to catch balls at pelvis height twisting towards the QB while running in the other direction and twisting back and reading the defensive players.  That goes to what @HazletonEagle was alluding to about the throw.  It was at pelvis height. Compare that to the first play where Quez is lined up about where he catches it and is turned towards the QB.  Now I blame the design versus the throw because the design influences the catch point on the play.  If Quez was aligned differently to start, the possibility of success is better.  IMHO. @ManuManu may well be right that I am wrong on this.  I would also proffer that the version we are discussing made Brown and Smith hold the blocks longer. 

33 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

We've had rumors that Lurie meddles but even if he does it's nowhere near what other owners do

Lurie has structured his FO very well for this kind of stuff. Make your GM the voice of ownership. If Lurie is meddling, he’s meddling through Howie, not around him. An owner having a meeting like this frequently with a coach to discuss gameplan or adjustments or week-to-week progress reports is problematic for morale and just plain wrong.

Lurie tells Howie to question Doug, Howie tells Lurie it didn’t go well, Howie and Lurie  collectively decided to Fire Doug. That’s a system that makes sense on every level.

30 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

 

 

Tank on 

And waste Kirk Cousins in his prime??????

Achane will be out for Eagles game! That will be huge

 

 

9 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said:

The thing is, bouncing wide is the annoying habit that Watkins displayed consistently when he was used as a kickoff returner. It seemed like an "always” thing for him to field the kick, run to about the ten yard line, and then head to the left sideline and get tackled short of the twenty.

I’m convinced that is why he lost that gig. Trusting him at any point to follow blocks inside and show toughness as a runner is asking for failure.

That’s a speed player characteristic.  They think they can get to the corner first.  BTW, that first play of the game version would have got the first down and Quez didn’t take it outside.  Much bigger hole.  

37 minutes ago, justwinbaby said:

There are certainly times where Hurts deserves criticism, but you seem to go to extreme lengths to do it. If he isn't 100% perfect every single snap then you make sure to point it out. It's weird. No QB is perfect. Hurts is amazing and yet you clearly can't get past your initial opinion of him. 

Your confusing me with someone else

39 minutes ago, pgcd3 said:

The thing with the forever sack is that he's turned a few of those into very good plays so if once a game that becomes a sack is that really a bad choice?

It’s a case by case basis. Even the great play to OZ was a near strip sack. 

39 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

The pass was right on him, he instantly caught it and turned his head.  This is craziness....

I’m talking about the crossing route that was over his head. 

22 minutes ago, vsptroops said:

Disagree. Harper needs to know the situation. The outfielders were playing no doubles defense which means they were already deep, plus Harris is a damn good centerfielder. At worst, if Harper just stops on second and the ball is dropped, he probably scores anyway because chances are the ball probably ricochets off the wall. If the ball is caught, which it was, he easily gets back to first and then I'll take my chances with Stott coming up. Can't be having baserunning blunders like that in the postseason, especially against a 104-win Braves team. 

Who f'ing cares....Harper plays it safe and he's on first with 2 outs.....the bigger or only issue is the village the Phillies left on base the whole game.  I can't even get mad at Wheeler or Hoffman....the Braves have the most prolific offense in modern day history...you can only hold them down for so long.  You need to make the most of everything you have on the base paths and the Phillies hitters didn't do it.  You cannot assume 4 runs will be enough.  The bigger question is with Harper on first with no outs...why not let him steal or try bunting him over?  Get him to second base with one out (or no outs with a steal)?   No, this isn't on Harper, this isn't on the pitchers....this is on the batters (as a whole) and the manager.

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

I’m talking about the crossing route that was over his head. 

That throw was too high, but it didn't help that Watkins slowed on his route.  Watkins was objectively terrible Sunday

20 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

But it wasn’t because it relied on Quez doing things he doesn’t do well.  Take a look at the first play of the game.  Completion to Quez on pretty much the same play design except Brown moves his man and Quez gets to ball in stride at about three yards deep and aligned to the hole.  The play in question has Quez running back five yards and not aligned with the hole to catch the ball.  Either flawed in design, Quez runs it wrong or Hurts poorly places the ball.  I go with the first because the design on the first one was a bunch.  On the one in question, Quez is inside.  Poor design, especially for Quez.  The stop and the run back screens don’t work for the Eagles regardless of who is running them.  The in stride do.  So I think it is play design.  I could be wrong but the failures suggest I am not.

We’re arguing two different things. The play was call was fine. It was designed fine. It was blocked fine. All the WR needed to do was run straight ahead. 

I 100 percent agree Quez sucks at this and these passes shouldn’t go to him. 

8 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

Too high or with too much zip and they turn into pick six too often.  Float and the DB steps into them. So there is a tendency to throw them low. Where only the receiver can get them but harder to catch.  Go outside and try to catch balls at pelvis height twisting towards the QB while running in the other direction and twisting back and reading the defensive players.  That goes to what @HazletonEagle was alluding to about the throw.  It was at pelvis height. Compare that to the first play where Quez is lined up about where he catches it and is turned towards the QB.  Now I blame the design versus the throw because the design influences the catch point on the play.  If Quez was aligned differently to start, the possibility of success is better.  IMHO. @ManuManu may well be right that I am wrong on this.  I would also proffer that the version we are discussing made Brown and Smith hold the blocks longer. 

Not to beat a dead horse here,  but he lined up at the 22.5 yard line and the ball was right on his chest.  He took a couple steps back to give Hurts a clear path to throw it.  IMO this is exactly how it was designed and it was well executed up until Quez ran sideways 

41 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

We've had rumors that Lurie meddles but even if he does it's nowhere near what other owners do

If I owned a business that had 17 events that determined potential revenue and success for the year, I would be meeting with the employees involved in managing the events.  

2 minutes ago, NYEagle said:

Who f'ing cares....Harper plays it safe and he's on first with 2 outs.....the bigger or only issue is the village the Phillies left on base the whole game.  I can't even get made at Wheeler or Hoffman....the Braves have the most prolific offense in modern day history...you can only hold them down for so long.  You need to make the most of everything you have on the base paths and the Phillies hitters didn't do it.  You cannot assume 4 runs will be enough.  The bigger question is with Harper on first with no outs...why not let him steal or try bunting him over?  Get him to second base with one out (or no outs with a steal)?   No, this isn't on Harper, this isn't on the pitchers....this is on the batters (as a whole) and the manager.

Hmm not sure about letting Harper steal in that scenario or bunting when you have JT and Nick following him up.  

1 minute ago, NYEagle said:

Who f'ing cares....Harper plays it safe and he's on first with 2 outs.....the bigger or only issue is the village the Phillies left on base the whole game.  I can't even get made at Wheeler or Hoffman....the Braves have the most prolific offense in modern day history...you can only hold them down for so long.  You need to make the most of everything you have on the base paths and the Phillies hitters didn't do it.  You cannot assume 4 runs will be enough.  The bigger question is with Harper on first with no outs...why not let him steal or try bunting him over?  Get him to second base with one out (or no outs with a steal)?   No, this isn't on Harper, this isn't on the pitchers....this is on the batters (as a whole) and the manager.

I agree with everything you said. That doesn't mean that Harper didn't commit a boneheaded baserunning mistake. Stott was the guy up next. That's one guy that I want up in a clutch situation because he is one of the few guys on the team that hits the ball where it's pitched. A guy who will slice the ball down the line or into the gaps. Unfortunately, we didn't get to find out.  

2 minutes ago, Mike31mt said:

Not to beat a dead horse here,  but he lined up at the 22.5 yard line and the ball was right on his chest.  He took a couple steps back to give Hurts a clear path to throw it.  IMO this is exactly how it was designed and it was well executed up until Quez ran sideways 

It does beg the question of why not throw it to Devona, who will get upfield in a hurry.  I agree, it was well executed up until Quez soft-brained running after the catch.  I also think this is why they should put in Zaccheus.  I would bet he would have picked up the first.  

11 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Your confusing me with someone else

Shut up Wentzwasher.  

8 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

That throw was too high, but it didn't help that Watkins slowed on his route.  Watkins was objectively terrible Sunday

If he even ran the route at the correct depth. He can’t be trusted to do that a lot of the time. 

13 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

That’s a speed player characteristic.  They think they can get to the corner first.  BTW, that first play of the game version would have got the first down and Quez didn’t take it outside.  Much bigger hole.  

It's also a characteristic of a player who wants to avoid contact.