May 11, 20206 yr 41 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: In Kz's America people who have weapons pulled on them by other civilians should trust their captors and calmly wait for law enforcement to arrive. Trayvon and Ahmaud would both be alive today if they weren't so uppity as to try and defend themselves against citizens. Don't these blacks thugs know that stand your ground laws are for white people upstanding, law-abiding Americans? Constitutional conservatism = submitting to the will of your citizen captors and overlords. What don't you understand?
May 11, 20206 yr 43 minutes ago, Kz! said: I think he should have either waited for police or kept running away. The worst option at that point was undoubtedly trying to disarm an armed individual, IMO. Sure, if you're a robot and can put your humanity in a box and think rationally when someone aims a gun at you. He tried to run around the truck, and the guy he ended up wrestling with was aiming his gun at him. At that point, fight-or-flight responses take over. He was defending himself in the best way he knew how. If he had run, I have little doubt these guys would have at least tried to tackle him, possibly run him down, or maybe just shoot him in the back. I don't want to speculate much there, but any of those possibilities are likely. And that's the calculus his fight-or-flight instinct made as well - he's alone and unarmed, he sees at least two people with guns at close range in a vehicle that limits options of escape. His choice to fight is probably one many here would make in the same instance, no matter how "rational" you think you are right now munching on a ham and cheese sandwich reading the new EMB.
May 11, 20206 yr 21 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: Sure, if you're a robot and can put your humanity in a box and think rationally when someone aims a gun at you. He tried to run around the truck, and the guy he ended up wrestling with was aiming his gun at him. At that point, fight-or-flight responses take over. He was defending himself in the best way he knew how. If he had run, I have little doubt these guys would have at least tried to tackle him, possibly run him down, or maybe just shoot him in the back. I don't want to speculate much there, but any of those possibilities are likely. And that's the calculus his fight-or-flight instinct made as well - he's alone and unarmed, he sees at least two people with guns at close range in a vehicle that limits options of escape. His choice to fight is probably one many here would make in the same instance, no matter how "rational" you think you are right now munching on a ham and cheese sandwich reading the new EMB. According to the DA citing witness statements, they were asking him to stop, not threatening him or simply drawing down on him. I don't want to speculate, but I find it hard to believe these guys without prior histories of violence would shoot someone in the back for fleeing or run over him. Perhaps if either had criminal histories that showed a tendency to be violent, but I don't understand how you can speculate they'd gun someone down for fleeing if there's nothing to back it up. I'd also disagree that most would instantly attempt to fight two armed individuals asking you to stop. IMO, almost no one would do that. Even under duress, I think I'd be able to recognize that's an instant death sentence.
May 11, 20206 yr Just now, Kz! said: According to the DA citing witness statements, they were asking him to stop, not threatening him or simply drawing down on him. I don't want to speculate, but I find it hard to believe these guys without prior histories of violence would shoot someone in the back for fleeing or run over him. Perhaps if either had criminal histories that showed a tendency to be violent, but I don't understand how you can speculate they'd gun someone down for fleeing if there's nothing to back it up. I'd also disagree that most would instantly attempt to fight two armed individuals asking you to stop. IMO, almost no one would do that. Even under duress, I think I'd be able to recognize that's an instant death sentence. I have no idea what words were exchanged between Ahmaud and these guys. But I find it interesting how many benefits of the doubt you're giving these guys over Ahmaud. Ahmaud presumably had no idea who these guys were, or why they - visibly armed - pulled in front of him and tried to stop him. But I'll say this: if I was a black youth, running through a predominantly white neighborhood in the deep south, and a couple of guys in a white pickup pulled in front of me, armed, and tried to get me to stop? Yeah I might feel like the only way I'm getting out of this is to fight my way out.
May 11, 20206 yr 6 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I have no idea what words were exchanged between Ahmaud and these guys. But I find it interesting how many benefits of the doubt you're giving these guys over Ahmaud. Ahmaud presumably had no idea who these guys were, or why they - visibly armed - pulled in front of him and tried to stop him. Yeah, I was just going by the DA's statements that cited witnesses claiming they were asking him to stop. When assessing situations like this, I think it's important to look at all of the facts. We know Ahmaud had been seen leaving someone's property. We know he has a criminal history. We know there had been burglaries in the neighborhood in question. Additionally, we know these guys had no criminal histories of any sort. There's still a lot unknown in the case, I just think the idea that these dude's just decided to wake up one day and "hunt" a black person is laughable. Quote But I'll say this: if I was a black youth, running through a predominantly white neighborhood in the deep south, and a couple of guys in a white pickup pulled in front of me, armed, and tried to get me to stop? Yeah I might feel like the only way I'm getting out of this is to fight my way out. There may be a perception that blacks are made unsafe in the south in white areas, but I don't think there are any statistics that actually support this idea. White on black crime in the country is very rare in comparison to black on white crime.
May 11, 20206 yr we know they're not cops but they still decided to pull a gun on him & wound up shooting him dead. we saw that on the video. we know that.
May 11, 20206 yr Just now, mr_hunt said: we know they're not cops but they still decided to pull a gun on him & wound up shooting him dead. we saw that on the video. Peak Libertarianism means surrendering your Constitutional rights when you've done nothing wrong. Just ask anyone.
May 11, 20206 yr 3 minutes ago, mr_hunt said: we know they're not cops but they still decided to pull a gun on him & wound up shooting him dead. we saw that on the video. we know that. Right, that's not arguable. We also know that Georgia law permits citizen's arrests. From the DA's letter:
May 11, 20206 yr 39 minutes ago, Kz! said: According to the DA citing witness statements, they were asking him to stop, not threatening him or simply drawing down on him. I don't want to speculate, but I find it hard to believe these guys without prior histories of violence would shoot someone in the back for fleeing or run over him. Perhaps if either had criminal histories that showed a tendency to be violent, but I don't understand how you can speculate they'd gun someone down for fleeing if there's nothing to back it up. I'd also disagree that most would instantly attempt to fight two armed individuals asking you to stop. IMO, almost no one would do that. Even under duress, I think I'd be able to recognize that's an instant death sentence. WHO are they to tell him to stop? No one 1 minute ago, Kz! said: Right, that's not arguable. We also know that Georgia law permits citizen's arrests. From the DA's letter: What did he burglarize? Oh wait nothing
May 11, 20206 yr 15 minutes ago, Kz! said: There may be a perception that blacks are made unsafe in the south in white areas, but I don't think there are any statistics that actually support this idea. White on black crime in the country is very rare in comparison to black on white crime. well, we can say it's rarely reported. as this case indicates. I have no idea though. I'm not a black kid in the deep south.
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, Kz! said: Right, that's not arguable. We also know that Georgia law permits citizen's arrests. From the DA's letter: So what exactly was the felony that Arbery was committing?
May 11, 20206 yr Just now, mayanh8 said: So what exactly was the felony that Arbery was committing? Being black... Duh
May 11, 20206 yr Just now, JohnSnowsHair said: well, we can say it's rarely reported. as this case indicates. I have no idea though. I'm not a black kid in the deep south. I mean, other than history itself and the fact that deep south states hold the highest concentration of hate groups, yeah I don't understand why someone would think blacks would feel unsafe in the cradle of American racism.
May 11, 20206 yr 4 minutes ago, Kz! said: Right, that's not arguable. We also know that Georgia law permits citizen's arrests. From the DA's letter: yeah, that's not how I read that law. "if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge" did they know he committed a crime? no.
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, DaEagles4Life said: WHO are they to tell him to stop? No one What did he burglarize? Oh wait nothing Yes, I don't believe there's any indication that he stole anything on the day in question, at least I haven't seen anything suggesting otherwise. We know he entered a construction site (and cctv footage suggests he had in the past as well) and we know that the neighborhood had experienced a rash of burglaries, which is probably what prompted the 3 to attempt to detain him. 3 minutes ago, mayanh8 said: So what exactly was the felony that Arbery was committing? "Probably grounds of suspicion" is the key phrase there.
May 11, 20206 yr 4 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: well, we can say it's rarely reported. as this case indicates. I have no idea though. I'm not a black kid in the deep south. Yes, there's certainly the potential that there is a white on black crime/murder epidemic going on in the south that's under-reported. Unfortunately, that's just speculation, so I'm going to go with actual crime statistics until someone uncovers that bombshell story lmao.
May 11, 20206 yr 2 minutes ago, Kz! said: "Probably grounds of suspicion" is the key phrase there. I believe the whole statute stands on its own. You can't pick out one part of it. The "probable grounds of suspicion" is dependent on "the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge"
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, Kz! said: Yes, I don't believe there's any indication that he stole anything on the day in question, at least I haven't seen anything suggesting otherwise. We know he entered a construction site (and cctv footage suggests he had in the past as well) and we know that the neighborhood had experienced a rash of burglaries, which is probably what prompted the 3 to attempt to detain him. "Probably grounds of suspicion" is the key phrase there. GA doesn't have felony trespass laws, genius. It's a misdemeanor in every. single. case. So unless they had first hand knowledge of Arbery committing felony theft while he was jogging then you're SOL.
May 11, 20206 yr 5 minutes ago, mayanh8 said: I mean, other than history itself and the fact that deep south states hold the highest concentration of hate groups, yeah I don't understand why someone would think blacks would feel unsafe in the cradle of American racism. There's simply no data to suggest that blacks are targeted by whites in killings in the south. I'm sorry, mayan, I know that's tough for you to hear lmao.
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, Kz! said: There's simply no data to suggest that blacks are targeted by whites in killings in the south. I'm sorry, mayan, I know that's tough for you to hear lmao. I mean Mississippi didn't truly abolish slavery until 2013 but you seem to know
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, mayanh8 said: GA doesn't have felony trespass laws, genius. It's a misdemeanor in every. single. case. So unless they had first hand knowledge of Arbery committing felony theft while he was jogging then you're SOL. But burglary is, genius. We can only assume the DA believed that the dudes had "probable grounds of suspicion" for burglary. 1 minute ago, DaEagles4Life said: I mean Mississippi didn't truly abolish slavery until 2013 but you seem to know wat
May 11, 20206 yr 5 minutes ago, JohnSnowsHair said: I believe the whole statute stands on its own. You can't pick out one part of it. The "probable grounds of suspicion" is dependent on "the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge" That excerpt was taken directly from the DA's letter. I honestly think this is a bit of a grey area with the law. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6884019-Waycross-DA-Letter-on-Arbery-Shooting-Jp.html 2 minutes ago, Dave Moss said: I think that's a very disingenuous framing of the debate.
May 11, 20206 yr 3 hours ago, Kz! said: No, his punishment for going into homes under construction wasn't death. His punishment for grabbing some dude's loaded gun and throwing superman punches while trying to wrench it free is what got him that. I really don't understand the how anyone besides the terminally liberal mayanh8s and hunts of the world can come up with the idea that that was an acceptable choice of action. He didn't initiate this altercation. THEY did. Two dopes were following him in two trucks, then got ahead of him and approached him with loaded weapons. I'm not liberal, but I also don't victim blame in an obvious scenario of fight or flight initiated by others in which a guy made the wrong decision. He didn't pull the trigger, nor did he approach a stranger with a loaded weapon. You're sounding worse by the second.
May 11, 20206 yr 1 minute ago, Kz! said: That excerpt was taken directly from the DA's letter. I honestly think this is a bit of a grey area with the law. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6884019-Waycross-DA-Letter-on-Arbery-Shooting-Jp.html And now the Georiga Attorney General is now looking into the case on how it was mishandled because they knew the father.
Create an account or sign in to comment