Official Philadelphia Flyers Thread - Eliminated.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

19 minutes ago, 20Safety_Hazards said:

So basically stretching out Voraceks contract for a lesser offensively player. He’s faster though and can play PK so there’s that.

He is a better goal scorer than voracek. All around voracek imo is a better offensive player. Also PK guy but not sure that holds up as he continues to age. However the last two years Atkinson has dropped off. This year in 56 games had 15 goals. If you extrapolate that into a 82 game season it’s 22 goals. Previous season he couldn’t stay healthy and scored 14. Still massive drop off from the 3 years prior to the last two where he was at 35, 24 (missed 17 games was on pace for 30) and 41. Basically voracek based off this year would be 15 if you project out to 82 games. But point wise voracek would finish slightly ahead. 

It helps cause you get a goal scorer as compared to voracek. However the extra year on the contract hurts especially when he’ll be 36 and potentially is already beginning to decline. 

Flyers have from what i have seen 12.5 mil in cap space however a bunch of RFA to sign. Likely the last major move you see. Unless they deal Jvr

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

 

[Khani1]

25 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

He is a better goal scorer than voracek. All around voracek imo is a better offensive player. Also PK guy but not sure that holds up as he continues to age. However the last two years Atkinson has dropped off. This year in 56 games had 15 goals. If you extrapolate that into a 82 game season it’s 22 goals. Previous season he couldn’t stay healthy and scored 14. Still massive drop off from the 3 years prior to the last two where he was at 35, 24 (missed 17 games was on pace for 30) and 41. Basically voracek based off this year would be 15 if you project out to 82 games. But point wise voracek would finish slightly ahead. 

It helps cause you get a goal scorer as compared to voracek. However the extra year on the contract hurts especially when he’ll be 36 and potentially is already beginning to decline. 

Flyers have from what i have seen 12.5 mil in cap space however a bunch of RFA to sign. Likely the last major move you see. Unless they deal Jvr

This is a good move.  Voracek disappears for long stretches and he can be lazy/unmotivated at times.  He also gets a lot of secondary assists so his actual impact points wise is less than it seems.  Cam has a shoot first mentality which is something this team desperately needs.  He will help out tremendously on the power player.  Obviously his best years are behind him but he is a scorer who puts 100% effort each game unlike Jake.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

11 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

This is a good move.  Voracek disappears for long stretches and he can be lazy/unmotivated at times.  He also gets a lot of secondary assists so his actual impact points wise is less than it seems.  Cam has a shoot first mentality which is something this team desperately needs.  He will help out tremendously on the power player.  Obviously his best years are behind him but he is a scorer who puts 100% effort each game unlike Jake.

I think short term it’s a better deal then long term. I think there’s the possibility in two years when he is 34 and 2 years left at 5.8 mil you have the possibility of being stuck with that contract and not able to unload it unless you do a similar ghost type deal. I’d be much more excited about the trade of Atkinson had just 3 years left like jake. I also think there’s a chance Atkinson decline is much steeper and faster 

this isn’t a ristolainen trade but i think there’s similar risk like the ellis trade that short term it likely is good but long term due to age and contract not looks as pretty a couple years from now 

If we are being honest, I’d still try to move JVR. I think he actually has value at 32 with just two years remaining on his deal. Had 43 points in 56 games. That’s a pace of 63 in a 82 game season and 25 goals. I think he actually played better than we thought he would and I’d deal now as compared to a year from now where he might regress and even with one year left make it difficult to deal 

[Khani1]

11 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I also think there’s a chance Atkinson decline is much steeper and faster 

Why do you think that?  They are the same age and Cam is faster and a shooter.  Shooter's will always have value on the power play.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

10 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

Why do you think that?  They are the same age and Cam is faster and a shooter.  Shooter's will always have value on the power play.

Cause it already has begun if you look at the last two years even if you project out for 82 games. He played all 56 this year but the previous year also missed 25. Add on he’s not exactly great size at 5’8. as he gets older his speed is not going to stay the same and at his size he is going to need it too. He’ll always have a shot but his goal scoring has declined each year since he turned 30 (technically more this year but pace for 82 games would’ve been one of his lowest of his career at 22). I also think at 34 in two years if he keeps declining that he’s likely not going to be as great on the PK so you will see him not play as much in that area. Thats worries me. To me jake isn’t a goal scorer but a playmaker. I also think voracek’s size and ability tends to age more gracefully even in today’s modern nhl. I’m not thrilled about voracek either but if I had to bet which has a steeper decline voracek in 3 years vs Atkinson in 3, I’d take Atkinson 

dont get me wrong i don’t think it’s an awful or bad trade, however there’s definitely risk like the ellis trade. Less so on the injury front with Atkinson and more so how steep his decline could be in 2 years 

[Khani1]

8 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Cause it already has begun if you look at the last two years even if you project out for 82 games. He played all 56 this year but the previous year also missed 25. Add on he’s not exactly great size at 5’8. as he gets older his speed is not going to stay the same and at his size he is going to need it too. He’ll always have a shot but his goal scoring has declined each year since he turned 30 (technically more this year but pace for 82 games would’ve been one of his lowest of his career at 22). Thats worries me. To me jake isn’t a goal scorer but a playmaker. I also think voracek’s size and ability tends to age more gracefully even in today’s modern nhl  

I'll take my chances with the shooter who will give maximum effort all the time and not get lazy and give up when there is adversity.  This team has had cultural issue for a few years.  Guys don't care or get upset after bad loses or losing streaks and Jake was the main culprit.  Instead of taking responsibility he would deflect.  I am glad he is gone.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

54 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

I'll take my chances with the shooter who will give maximum effort all the time and not get lazy and give up when there is adversity.  This team has had cultural issue for a few years.  Guys don't care or get upset after bad loses or losing streaks and Jake was the main culprit.  Instead of taking responsibility he would deflect.  I am glad he is gone.

I never said i wanted to keep voracek. Ive been on that boat for years that they should’ve dealt him prior to giving him his extension if he wanted an 8 year deal (more of i wouldn’t have gone over 6 years in his extension. Really wanted just 5 years. I rather have overpaid a little each year to not have the extra 2 years of that contract— he’d be entering the last year of that contract this year). ask 4for4 cause we’ve said similar things on this topic  

However doesn’t mean the contract you get back won’t potentially be another obstacle in 2 years when hes 34 and not the same player anymore and have an extra year left. I personally rather have neither of them under contract in 2 years. 

[Khani1]

Just now, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I never said i wanted to keep voracek. Ive been on that boat for years that they should’ve dealt him prior to giving him his extension. ask 4for4 cause we’ve said similar things on this topic  

However doesn’t mean the contract you get back won’t potentially be another obstacle in 2 years when hes 34 and not the same player anymore and have an extra year left. 

There was not much wiggle room with the cap issues.  You had to lose out in some aspect.  Luckily we did not have to give up a mid round pick or retain salary.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

22 minutes ago, Khani1 said:

There was not much wiggle room with the cap issues.  You had to lose out in some aspect.  Luckily we did not have to give up a mid round pick or retain salary.

Cap issues occurred because of contract situations being similar. Short terms definitely helpful to the Flyers but they might face in 2-3 years with ellis and Atkinson is the issues you ran into with Jake, jvr and ghost where with 2-3 years left on contracts they aren’t worth the value they are being paid and tough to move on from. It’s why i keep saying short term helpful (assuming Atkinson doesn’t completely fall off a cliff and ellis stays healthy) but 2-3 years from now potentially find yourself in the same quagmire you are in now but different names in ellis and Atkinson. 

put it this way hayes has 5 years left on his deal at 7.1 (i was against that contract. I thought they overpaid to get him here and wasn’t worth $7.1 mil— i thought they should’ve done a complete rebuild and not rebuild on the fly. It’s much tougher to do it that way). In 2 offseasons from now could have him in a JVR/voracek situation where making too much for what he is at that point but has 3 years left on his deal. If Atkinson, ellis and Hayes all are in that same boat of dimishing returns with multiple years left on their contract taking up just under $20 mil in cap space. They could all workout and it’s not a big deal. However you could also find yourself right back in the same position you are right now trying to unload those contracts. ** didn’t even include you have to extend coots at 28/29 likely to a lengthy deal as well. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

Want to be more upset about the ristolainen deal this is what Florida gave up to get Sam Reinhart. Future first rounder and a 7th round goalie they took in 2020. rather have reinhart than risto and at that price compared to ours. 
 

 

[Alphagrand]

1 hour ago, 20Safety_Hazards said:

So basically stretching out Voraceks contract for a lesser offensively player. He’s faster though and can play PK so there’s that.

It’s not a good trade.  The only reason anyone would be defending it would be it’s not as horrid a move as we’ve seen over the past 2-3 days of tear down.

Moved a highly paid guy for a slightly less high paid guy who is much smaller — Voracek is really good on the boards; Atkinson is nearly useless there.  Atkinson is just as old — let’s add another overpaid 30+ player.  He shouldn’t be a top-6 forward, and you really don’t want older high-paid 3rd and 4th line guys.  He’s 32 and still has 4 more years at $5.25M per year — wow, that’s a bad contract.  The more I type, the worse this deal gets.

Who do people want as the top 6 forwards next season?  JVR, Hayes, Couts, Konecny, Farabee, Lindblom, Laughton ….. so the choices are bury Giroux, Atkinson, or now both salaries on the bottom 6 of the roster?  Not good.  Voracek was a better offensive player who could at least merit top line or second line ice time.  Atkinson is degrading quickly.
 

Another step backwards and add an extra year of contract term.

[EaglesRocker97]

3 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I feel like most of us didn’t like the fletcher hire nor fletcher in general.

 

You've been on the record to that end, but I feel like most were either neutral on the hire or willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I did not like the hire, but I have been willing to give him occasional credit for some moves. Those moments are short-lived, though. It seems like for every savvy move he makes, he follows it up with a head-scratcher. It's fine to be a risk-taker, but his willingness to gamble verges on being foolhardy.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

9 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

 

You've been on the record to that end, buy I feel like most were either neutral on the hire or willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Personally, I did not like the hire, but I have been willing to give him occasional credit for some moves. Those moments are short-lived, though. It seems like for every savvy move he makes, he follows it up with a head-scratcher. It's fine to be a risk-taker, but his willingness to gamble verges on being foolhardy.

I personally think if this team doesn’t get to the playoffs he’s likely getting fired at the end of this year. If i were the Flyers I’d make him have to win a round as well but I’m betting they don’t. 

the worst move out of all of the moves made so far is the ristolainen.  the analytics actually despise ristolainen. I can imagine the analytics department and fletcher probably didn’t agree on that move. Add on the package for reinhart was less and i think reinhart still has a higher ceiling he can reach and ultimately i think a better player 

[jsdarkstar]

 

[devpool]

I like this trade. As much as I like voracek he very clearly mailed it in a lot of games, I see a lot of people praising atkinson for being high energy. Also consider how atrocious our PK is.

Yea he has an extra year, that sucks. But it's possible at that point he is still somewhat effective and could be a key veteran for a team with cup aspirations (like pat maroon), retain half salary in that final year (which would be about 2.5mil) and it isn't bad. 

 

G-Coots-TK

Farabee-Hayes-JvR

Lindblom-Frost/FA-Atkinson

NAK?-Laughton-Allison

Wondering if they might move frost to wing if he doesn't slide into the 3C role or if they sign a FA to fill that role. Hopefully NAK rebounds from last year because he was horrid, but he was really effective the year prior so chalking it up to covid.

Provy-Ellis

Sanheim-Rasmus

York-Braun

7D-Morin

Hart

FA

[DBW]

Love all the moves so far.

next to move is TK in a package to get tarasenko.  Calling it now.  

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

Juicy 

 

[devpool]

Surprisingly enough Carchidi didn't even ask the question lol some other reporter did. Stupid question either way but I would have bet money carchidi had asked it.

Say what you want about giroux but he has been the team's best player for years, and idk where the "he doesn't care" stuff comes from because he was one of the only guys flying around the ice routinely last season. I guess because he doesn't yell enough? Idk. Voracek you could easily see a lack of effort in games, I don't see that in giroux. 

And with all that said, this is likely his last year here so I doubt they would strip him of the C anyway.

[Green Dog]

On 7/24/2021 at 4:36 PM, jsdarkstar said:

 

Won't miss Hagg watching pucks go past him into the net.

[Blazehound]

15 hours ago, devpool said:

Surprisingly enough Carchidi didn't even ask the question lol some other reporter did. Stupid question either way but I would have bet money carchidi had asked it.

Say what you want about giroux but he has been the team's best player for years, and idk where the "he doesn't care" stuff comes from because he was one of the only guys flying around the ice routinely last season. I guess because he doesn't yell enough? Idk. Voracek you could easily see a lack of effort in games, I don't see that in giroux. 

And with all that said, this is likely his last year here so I doubt they would strip him of the C anyway.

The Flyers beat writers are all mildly brain dead 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

21 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

You think it’s a dumb to ask if there would be a new captain after the GM said leadership group needed to be changed?   So now, the only change is Voracek.  Not hardly enough. It was a logical question.   

I actually thought carchidi’s response was spot on. Giroux shouldn’t be mad at the media members but his own GM basically called out the leadership in the locker room in that presser. Fletcher shouldn’t have said it even if it were true. All he had to say is we felt like it was time to shake things up and go in another direction. If I’m G, I’d have bigger issues with my GM making it public about my and the others leaders in that locker room not doing a better job and needing more help cause the group couldn’t accomplish it. 

[jsdarkstar]

6 hours ago, Green Dog said:

Won't miss Hagg watching pucks go past him into the net.

Yep. And Atkinson can put the puck in the goal. 

[Joe Shades 73]

So are they any better?

[devpool]

7 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I actually thought carchidi’s response was spot on. Giroux shouldn’t be mad at the media members but his own GM basically called out the leadership in the locker room in that presser. Fletcher shouldn’t have said it even if it were true. All he had to say is we felt like it was time to shake things up and go in another direction. If I’m G, I’d have bigger issues with my GM making it public about my and the others leaders in that locker room not doing a better job. 

Fletcher said we needed to shake up the leadership group and only shipped out voracek, pretty clear that voracek was a problem in the locker room. Not very hard to read between the lines there, and that's why the question was stupid. 

And as part of the shakeup, he brought in two veteran leaders in atkinson and ellis. Shaking up the core does not equal blowing it up, and trading players is not the only way to change a leadership group. Clearly the team does not have an issue with G as captain or we would have heard something, no rumblings of them asking him to waive his NMC or fielding offers from teams. When these moves were made they talked a lot about ellis and atkinson bringing energy which is so clearly what Jake did not bring on a lot of nights.

 

Tl;dr the question was stupid because the team made it pretty clear voracek was the problem.