Official Philadelphia Flyers Thread - Eliminated.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

1 hour ago, devpool said:

Fletcher said we needed to shake up the leadership group and only shipped out voracek, pretty clear that voracek was a problem in the locker room. Not very hard to read between the lines there, and that's why the question was stupid. 

And as part of the shakeup, he brought in two veteran leaders in atkinson and ellis. Shaking up the core does not equal blowing it up, and trading players is not the only way to change a leadership group. Clearly the team does not have an issue with G as captain or we would have heard something, no rumblings of them asking him to waive his NMC or fielding offers from teams. When these moves were made they talked a lot about ellis and atkinson bringing energy which is so clearly what Jake did not bring on a lot of nights.

 

Tl;dr the question was stupid because the team made it pretty clear voracek was the problem.

Eh i think Fletcher shouldn’t have said anything to that point it felt like many people (not Flyers homers) not just media thought he was taking a shot at more than just voracek about that leadership in that locker room in general from guys who’ve been here a while. 

Also he couldn’t trade giroux if he wanted too cause of his NTC. So even if he wanted to move giroux to have more of a shake up he couldn’t. Hence why only voracek was dealt in terms of leadership of guys who’ve really been here a long time. He could trade Coots but i don’t think coots is replaceable for what he does. It’s really not stupid cause we have no clue if Fletcher might have wanted to Move on from giroux but that NTC prevented it.

It really sounded like fletcher was falling the sword saying it was on him for not providing more leadership and he needed to find new voices so that certain players wouldn’t get upset if he called them by name for lack of leadership. 

[Bill]

1 hour ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Eh i think Fletcher shouldn’t have said anything to that point it felt like many people (not Flyers homers) not just media thought he was taking a shot at more than just voracek about that leadership in that locker room in general from guys who’ve been here a while. 

Also he couldn’t trade giroux if he wanted too cause of his NTC. So even if he wanted to move giroux to have more of a shake up he couldn’t. Hence why only voracek was dealt in terms of leadership of guys who’ve really been here a long time. He could trade Coots but i don’t think coots is replaceable for what he does. It’s really not stupid cause we have no clue if Fletcher might have wanted to Move on from giroux but that NTC prevented it.

It really sounded like fletcher was falling the sword saying it was on him for not providing more leadership and he needed to find new voices so that certain players wouldn’t get upset if he called them by name for lack of leadership. 

With how crappy the Philly sports media is if there was any problem with G at all we would have heard fifty reports of it. He wasn’t approached about waiving his nmc for the expansion draft. No rumblings about moving him. 
 

It’s super obvious G isn’t the problem and it was Voracek. 
 

If you’ve been thinking G is the problem you can’t read between the lines. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

6 hours ago, Bill said:

With how crappy the Philly sports media is if there was any problem with G at all we would have heard fifty reports of it. He wasn’t approached about waiving his nmc for the expansion draft. No rumblings about moving him. 
 

It’s super obvious G isn’t the problem and it was Voracek. 
 

If you’ve been thinking G is the problem you can’t read between the lines. 

if fletcher wanted to move on from him he couldn’t because Of NTC. And giroux at this stage of his career and another baby on the way was never going to waive it. Neither were the owners of the Flyers so what’s the Fing point of asking him and creating a bug hoopla? They already knew the answer to the question. So no crap they wouldn’t ask him even if that were the case. Also he might not have wanted to trade him for being a problem 

 if you think it was just voracek that he was specifically talking about I suggest you go read the presser. He mentioned young players not taking that role like they thought they would and guys who’ve been there for awhile needing more leadership and voices to help them cause they were missing some extra leadership they needed when niskanen left. It was definitely not just directed at voracek. He even blamed himself and mentioned losses of guys like niskanen  

I love Jacob voracek somehow became the only reason for the entire team playing the same inconsistent hockey or slow starts for almost a decade under 4 different coaches.

That question felt fletcher tried to take the brunt of it at the end of the answering of the question to deflect off the guys in the locker rooms and also gone now. but he also to pointed out he says certain players and a group as the whole. I’m guessing he wasn’t referring to ghost or hagg who were also dealt. I’m pretty it wasn’t just voracek who he was referring as "certain players”.  

I thought we were young in places last year. We let some veteran players go and lost some veteran players. We replaced them with kids. Frankly, I think it was too much to ask of certain players and of the group as a whole. It was less a reflection of the inability of the leadership group and more reflection on the fact that I didn’t provide enough leaders for the group. That’s what I mean that we needed to change that.

Do I think giroux is a major problem? No. However i am not going to just completely dismiss and absolve giroux any of the fault  for some of the low energy/slow starts/inconsistencies over the last decade when he’s been a constant here along with some of the others. Is he the main culprit to go after? No however that doesn’t mean he was perfect either. 

[devpool]

Again when you listen to the pressers for the guys coming in and how much energy they bring to the ice is mentioned it seems to me like they saw voracek as an issue. The only issue? No, no one said that. It was talked about all year how big a loss niskanen was. But voracek was by far the biggest culprit of visibly mailing it in, especially this past season. Patrick was probably second, just completely disinterested most games. 

In restructuring the leadership group (again, a restructure does not mean blow it up) they moved someone they apparently thought was having a negative impact in the locker room/on the ice(voracek) and brought in two high character, high energy guys (ellis, atkinson). 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

Where did i or anyone remotely say voracek wasn’t an issue? I completely agree voracek was a problem. He has been for a couple years now. It’s why multiple on here have said he should’ve been gone 3 years ago. And yet because now he’s gone fletcher was only discussing referring to him in his presser. He specifically mentions players still here in the locker room needed more help in terms of leadership and weren’t able to fill voids left behind by lost veterans. Fletcher did indicate they felt like they needed some new energy and juice. He also said some of the guys still here needed some other voices and more leadership from the outside that they struggled to provide last year. That wasn’t just a voracek bashing the entire time. 

Also Nolan Patrick was never considered a leader in the locker room. So when fletcher talked about leadership and more voices in the locker room i don’t think he was referring to Patrick. Do i agree Patrick had bad body language and needed to go? Yeah he also didn’t want to be here and it was obvious by some of his early season quotes. I believe nbc sports Philly had a story about his discontent being here and with the medical staff  

also where did i say blow it up? All i said was we don’t know if fletcher would’ve been fine with trading G cause G had a no trade clause so no way it was gonna happen. I don’t even think it be about his leadership as why fletcher would’ve thought to potentially deal him.  I looked the flyers cap situation and I say it is much easier and more beneficial in terms of assets to move a guy with one year left on his contract (as compared to JVR with 2, ghost with 2 and voracek with 3), playing at a good level. It would clear a nice amount of cap space and probably get prospects/picks that help make moves for future long-term. Add on i could use the cap savings to add other potential impact player(s) for next year and who would be here for the foreseeable future helping in the next wave of Flyers hockey whereas giroux could potentially be gone at the end of the 2021-22 season. At some point in time there’s Flyers hockey after giroux. If he could send him to a cup contender, help the flyers today adding some players as well as in the long term future doing so it might have behooved fletcher. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

For the price and where you are likely to play him it’s not a bad deal at all 

 

[devpool]

10 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Where did i or anyone remotely say voracek wasn’t an issue? I completely agree voracek was a problem. He has been for a couple years now. It’s why multiple on here have said he should’ve been gone 3 years ago. And yet because now he’s gone fletcher was only discussing referring to him in his presser. He specifically mentions players still here in the locker room needed more help in terms of leadership and weren’t able to fill voids left behind by lost veterans. Fletcher did indicate they felt like they needed some new energy and juice. He also said some of the guys still here needed some other voices and more leadership from the outside that they struggled to provide last year. That wasn’t just a voracek bashing the entire time. 

Also Nolan Patrick was never considered a leader in the locker room. So when fletcher talked about leadership and more voices in the locker room i don’t think he was referring to Patrick. Do i agree Patrick had bad body language and needed to go? Yeah he also didn’t want to be here and it was obvious by some of his early season quotes. I believe nbc sports Philly had a story about his discontent being here and with the medical staff  

also where did i say blow it up? All i said was we don’t know if fletcher would’ve been fine with trading G cause G had a no trade clause so no way it was gonna happen. I don’t even think it be about his leadership as why fletcher would’ve thought to potentially deal him.  I looked the flyers cap situation and I say it is much easier and more beneficial in terms of assets to move a guy with one year left on his contract (as compared to JVR with 2, ghost with 2 and voracek with 3), playing at a good level. It would clear a nice amount of cap space and probably get prospects/picks that help make moves for future long-term. Add on i could use the cap savings to add other potential impact player(s) for next year and who would be here for the foreseeable future helping in the next wave of Flyers hockey whereas giroux could potentially be gone at the end of the 2021-22 season. At some point in time there’s Flyers hockey after giroux. If he could send him to a cup contender, help the flyers today adding some players as well as in the long term future doing so it might have behooved fletcher. 

The reason I didn't quote your post is because none of it was directed at you alone, specifically the blow it up portion. I made that clarification because there are people, even on these boards, who believe that just because giroux is still here they did not restructure the leadership group.

Just because someone isn't a leader doesn't mean they don't have negative impacts on the locker room. There was an article on the athletic that mentioned ghost as a possible negative too due to his frustration with his ice time situation. So as much as the ghost move was a cap move, it also did something to clear away a negative locker room presence.

From that article:

"To be clear — none of Patrick, Gostisbehere or Voracek are bad guys. Fletcher made sure to praise the characters of both Gostisbehere (“He was a model citizen”) and Voracek (“I love him as a person, we’ve had great conversations all year”). But it makes sense to me why they were all excised. I noted this back in June: "But for the team to have a rebound season in 2021-22, I believe they’ll need full buy-in from every single player on the roster — a replication of the chemistry the group had in the second half of 2019-20.” The subtractions from the past week and change very much played to me as if the Flyers had that in mind."

 

[Bill]

Yeah it’s pretty Fing clear there’s no issues with G. People have been trashing him since he got the C. If there was any issues then we would have heard about it because people talk. But we haven’t so no. 
 

Voracek was clearly a huge locker room issue. Hence why he’s not here anymore. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

2 hours ago, devpool said:

The reason I didn't quote your post is because none of it was directed at you alone, specifically the blow it up portion. I made that clarification because there are people, even on these boards, who believe that just because giroux is still here they did not restructure the leadership group.

Just because someone isn't a leader doesn't mean they don't have negative impacts on the locker room. There was an article on the athletic that mentioned ghost as a possible negative too due to his frustration with his ice time situation. So as much as the ghost move was a cap move, it also did something to clear away a negative locker room presence.

From that article:

"To be clear — none of Patrick, Gostisbehere or Voracek are bad guys. Fletcher made sure to praise the characters of both Gostisbehere (“He was a model citizen”) and Voracek (“I love him as a person, we’ve had great conversations all year”). But it makes sense to me why they were all excised. I noted this back in June: "But for the team to have a rebound season in 2021-22, I believe they’ll need full buy-in from every single player on the roster — a replication of the chemistry the group had in the second half of 2019-20.” The subtractions from the past week and change very much played to me as if the Flyers had that in mind."

 

I know i never said they didn’t the restructure the group. My point with Giroux was solely Fletcher might have also wanted to move on from giroux for other reasons than blow it up or leadership stand point. I pointed it out i dont think it’s out of the realm a GM sees a way to impact the team with players who will be here for more than potentially just 2021-22. A hypothetical maybe Fletcher wanted to get the cap space, picks/prospects then use it to get someone like tarasenko (if healthy) could benefit the Flyers years after giroux is gone and giroux might be gone next year. I don’t think that’s crazy to think about. It would stink to lose giroux but ultimately long term benefit the Flyers more. Just saying i didn’t say it had to be cause giroux sucks as a leader. I never said that i said i think Fletcher wasn’t just singling out the players who left in some of his comments.   

I don’t disagree they can’t be a negative impact in body language. It’s why i was one of the few to say trade Patrick back at the start of the season when some of the quotes he said came out from nbc Philly. They definitely did. But go read the entire presser from Fletcher. He specifically mentioned the leadership in the locker room from the leaders and needing more voices and new energy to help them. He even admitted it’s a lot on him for not providing it. Like that paragraph he mentioned also the entire team in there as well with what you posted. I never disagreed they came off negative and would hurt the Flyers. However i think when Fletcher mentioned leadership in the locker room needing more voices and outside help he was talking about guys like giroux, hayes and coots as well as voracek cause he had been here so long. 

My bigger issue is more some will just absolve giroux from anything that goes wrong with the Flyers. Like the playoff series where he was just awful and had 1 point in 6 games. the amount of excuses given to him and blaming of everyone but him for that happening. Is he the major culprit? Hell no but he shouldn’t be absolved. I would say the same thing in other sports as well like embiid or Cox or wheeler (even though he has been good he’s had times where the phillies needed him to save the pen and didn’t). No one should just be dismissed and absolved of everything when things go poorly cause they are a really good player and we all love him.

[Bill]

12 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I know i never said they didn’t the restructure the group. My point with Giroux was solely Fletcher might have also wanted to move on from giroux for other reasons than blow it up or leadership stand point. I pointed it out i dont think it’s out of the realm a GM sees a way to impact the team with players who will be here for more than potentially just 2021-22. A hypothetical maybe Fletcher wanted to get the cap space, picks/prospects then use it to get someone like tarasenko (if healthy) could benefit the Flyers years after giroux is gone and giroux might be gone next year. I don’t think that’s crazy to think about. It would stink to lose giroux but ultimately long term benefit the Flyers more. Just saying i didn’t say it had to be cause giroux sucks as a leader. I never said that i said i think Fletcher wasn’t just singling out the players who left in some of his comments.   

I don’t disagree they can’t be a negative impact in body language. It’s why i was one of the few to say trade Patrick back at the start of the season when some of the quotes he said came out from nbc Philly. They definitely did. But go read the entire presser from Fletcher. He specifically mentioned the leadership in the locker room from the leaders and needing more voices and new energy to help them. He even admitted it’s a lot on him for not providing it. Like that paragraph he mentioned also the entire team in there as well with what you posted. I never disagreed they came off negative and would hurt the Flyers. However i think when Fletcher mentioned leadership in the locker room needing more voices and outside help he was talking about guys like giroux, hayes and coots as well as voracek cause he had been here so long. 

My bigger issue is more some will just absolve giroux from anything that goes wrong with the Flyers. Like the playoff series where he was just awful and had 1 point in 6 games. the amount of excuses given to him and blaming of everyone but him for that happening. Is he the major culprit? Hell no but he shouldn’t be absolved. I would say the same thing in other sports as well like embiid or Cox or wheeler (even though he has been good he’s had times where the phillies needed him to save the pen and didn’t). No one should just be dismissed and absolved of everything when things go poorly cause they are a really good player and we all love him.

Giroux’s play in the last minute of game 7 in the 2010 conference Semis is enough for me. 
 

Pretty evident the issue was Homer and Hextall this whole time. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

 

[devpool]

Martin Jones is one of the few goalies (to include hart) that were worse than elliot last season. Hate that signing. Thompson is whatever, he should never play but is fine as the 13th forward.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

1 minute ago, devpool said:

Martin Jones is one of the few goalies (to include hart) that were worse than elliot last season. Hate that signing. Thompson is whatever, he should never play but is fine as the 13th forward.

More interesting elliott signed for basically less than a million with tampa. 

[devpool]

28 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

More interesting elliott signed for basically less than a million with tampa. 

I definitely didn't want elliot back, if Hart misses any time elliot physically cannot hold down the fort. He can get a game or two in a row but beyond that it just goes downhill. Vasilevskiy rarely misses time, good fit for elliot.

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

20 minutes ago, devpool said:

I definitely didn't want elliot back, if Hart misses any time elliot physically cannot hold down the fort. He can get a game or two in a row but beyond that it just goes downhill. Vasilevskiy rarely misses time, good fit for elliot.

Oh i didn’t either. However i dont see how Martin is worth $2 million was my point if elliott got 900k. It feels like the Flyers paid more than they had too. I much rather saved have gone in another direction then Martin especially at $2 mil

[Alphagrand]

Quite a start to FA.  Bring in two guys over 35 in Yandle and Thompson, and bring in a #2 goalie who is pretty uninspiring — hasn’t had a SV% over .900 in 4 years.

"Pretty weak, Milhouse” 

[Blazehound]

1 hour ago, Alphagrand said:

Quite a start to FA.  Bring in two guys over 35 in Yandle and Thompson, and bring in a #2 goalie who is pretty uninspiring — hasn’t had a SV% over .900 in 4 years.

"Pretty weak, Milhouse” 

Color me unimpressed. The back up goalie is the biggest issue for me. Given the condensed schedule and Hart’s struggles, a strong back up goalie was a huge need. Jones has been one of the worst goalies in the league the past three years. Great job Flyers.

[ToastJenkins]

Seems like a trainwreck

are they tanking?

[Alphagrand]

8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Seems like a trainwreck

are they tanking?

Intentionally or not — yes 

[Khani1]

I might be in the minority but I think we did as good as we could with all things considered. 

[devpool]

I'm not sure why we're getting up in arms about a 13th forward and a defenseman who might not even play if York makes the team.

Jones was a bad move, I don't know what they see in him.

They had no money, idk what some of you expected them to do. 

[Blazehound]

5 hours ago, devpool said:

I'm not sure why we're getting up in arms about a 13th forward and a defenseman who might not even play if York makes the team.

Jones was a bad move, I don't know what they see in him.

They had no money, idk what some of you expected them to do. 

Because Thompson and Yandle are going to likely block York and Frost. And we know AV loves to over play these veteran types to the detriment of the team.

[devpool]

11 hours ago, Blazehound said:

Because Thompson and Yandle are going to likely block York and Frost. And we know AV loves to over play these veteran types to the detriment of the team.

York might not even be ready right away, so why worry about a $900k defenseman? And frost wasn't exactly lighting it up at C before his injury.

AV overplayed Thompson in the playoffs but he hasn't prevented call-ups because of older guys like hakstol did. Who in 2019 was being blocked by Thompson or Grant? 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

 

[Blazehound]

12 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

 

How are they going to afford to re-sign Sanheim? I assumed Hart wasn’t going to get anything more than $2.5m or so.