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Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)


Road to Victory

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6 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Then you trade him if the value is half decent? Which is what I said...

Oh Ok- I thought you meant build around him. 

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11 hours ago, pallidrone said:

This 100%

The problem is the QB and the biggest quandary for the team. They gave him a big contract and put all their eggs in his basket. Now he is playing bad and that is reverberating down to the rest of the team. The defense is playing bad because they are either on the field all the time or in short field situation due to turnovers. The play calling is suffering because the HC cant trust his QB to execute properly. You have to hope that he starts playing better because you can't put in the rookie. Once you do that and if the backup plays any better then your 'franchise' QB will completely lose the locker room.

He is just playing terribly right now and I don't know if he has the fortitude to pull himself out of this.

Yes but as badly as he's playing you can't really judge him now.  He has little running game.  We have no big back on the roster.  The Oline is average at best and at LT we now have a big problem.  Once again the WRs stink.  Jackson is always hurt.  JJ can't play at all.  The rookies are just that and aren't all that good anyway. The scheme on O is lousy and the play design is awful.  How often do you see out WRs wide open?  Hardly ever.  It took a blown coverage for Ward to be on his TD.  Everything around him is terrible.  Once we fix those issues we can then judge the QB.  Yes he's playing poorly and you can't fumble the way he does.  Buy what QBs would be doing well in this mess of a situation?

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On 9/27/2020 at 7:39 PM, EagleJoe8 said:

Until Lurie makes the obvious decision regarding Howie, what we see is what we’ll continue to get. 

And before that happens Howie will launch into full Machiavelli mode, back stabbing, anonymous NFL source leaks to his buddies about Doug—that little **** will not go quietly.

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9 hours ago, manz2821 said:

100% we need to clean house. Get a new GM and let him choose his own coach. I mean look where the niners were at the end of the Chip Kelly season. 2-14. They cleaned house. Drafted great and they were in the SB 2- 3 years later. We need something overly drastic like that. Which is good for us as our division is bad and I don't see any team there making it to the SB

And that's where we can get to if we make the right moves and bring in the right people. And sure that's easier said than done but it is very doable. It wasn't that long ago that the Chiefs weren't a very good team and were in the top half of the draft. 

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4 hours ago, Road to Victory said:

Oh Ok- I thought you meant build around him. 

Absolutely not no. Ertz has got to be traded. There's zero point in keeping him on his roster now. 

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2 hours ago, Runtherock said:

And before that happens Howie will launch into full Machiavelli mode, back stabbing, anonymous NFL source leaks to his buddies about Doug—that little **** will not go quietly.

No probably not. 

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19 hours ago, NOTW said:

They will think all they need to do is retool not blow it up and rebuild and they will continue to have 6-8 wins at best for a couple seasons if they don't make major changes. 

Give this man a prize. Let's put some scary numbers out there while we talk about fixing the team. 

2021 ages of your "premier players"

Lane Johnson 31

Jason Kelce 33 - Will probably retire

Zach Ertz - 30

Fletcher Cox - 30

Brandon Graham - 33

Malik Jackson - 31

Darius Slay - 30

Carson Wentz - 28 already

 

Now, I'm not advocating a doomsday scenario, but I will openly commit that I believe Howie Roseman is a huge problem and needs to be shown the door as soon as humanly possible. I also think Doug Pederson needs to convince Jeffrey Lurie that he can build a team, not just coach veterans. There's a huge difference. At that point - and I will catch a major amount of heat for this - some of those players are tradeable in my opinion as they just don't fit my future and I'm willing to take the cap savings for the cap penalty. 

Also to that point, why do I have a ridiculous portion of my cap committed to defensive tackle and I cannot seem to get consistent pressure? Why do I have an insane amount at receiver, yet my offense throws to tight ends more than any other in NFL history? These are not just questions, but major f'ing concerns. 

There are guys there that I LOVE as players. That said, if a few don't remove head from arse, I'd seriously consider moving them. Before doing that though, and this is extremely important, I need a new GM in place that is going to make good draft decisions. 

Howie Roseman clearly cannot. The best move he's made in a long time is ... hell ... trading for Darius Slay? 

Those ages scare the hell out of me. 

 

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5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Absolutely not no. Ertz has got to be traded. There's zero point in keeping him on his roster now. 

What's he worth on the market?  A 2nd or 3rd?  He's a top 5 tight end with a good 3 or 4 years ahead of him, but he's also wanting that type of money.

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20 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

We got that because Howie hit free agency out of the park that year. It’s clearly not a sustainable way to do business. 

2017 was a perfect storm of bargain signings paying off, career years from a lot of players, including backups who filled in for the many injured players, otherworldly play from both of the QB's, having excellent offensive coaches around Pederson, and the HC himself showing the type of vision and guts we haven't seen since.              To call it unsustainable, while very true, is a gross understatement.

While it was somewhat understandable to 'run it back' in 2018, a competent GM would have seen that some 'changes on the fly' to clear out salary and get younger could have been done and set the team up for the future while still remaining competitive.            We don't have that, we have a guy who was lauded by the national media as the next team building savant and basked in the praise, but what we have gotten instead is a harsh dose of reality since then.         

Roseman had his Cinderella moment, and continued the bargain signings, average drafts, and locking up decent players beyond their expiration formula that had made him "Executive of the Year".         The oh-so-predictable result has been a mediocre, aging roster with few legitimate difference makers and a bloated cap.           Add to that a HC who has been exposed without the offensive coaching talent around him that he had in 2017, and a franchise QB who looks lost and rudderless with no one on the staff to turn to.

To some of us here, none of this is remotely surprising.          I'll never give back 2017, but it's crystal clear now that it was an oasis in the desert of what this franchise has been since Lurie bought the team - pretty good (good enough to become a billion dollar franchise and cash cow), but not close to elite.

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19 hours ago, NOTW said:

Salary cap issues, age and injury means you have to get rid of some of these guys even who are performing well.  Ertz, Cox, Graham, McLeod, Brooks, Jeffrey, DeSean Jackson, Peters, Malik Jackson, maybe more.

In many cases that was also the smart play after the Super Bowl.          There were several guys whose value would never be higher (Graham!!) that could have been moved for picks.           A smart, savvy GM, without the idiotic loyalty, could have retooled that group on the fly, but the Eagles don't possess anyone like that.

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19 hours ago, CaliEagle said:

If we are bad with those guys, then it makes it easier to move on from them.  But, yep, most of those guys, if not all, will probably be gone.  Obviously, you would start with Graham, McLeod, Jeffery, both Jacksons and Peters. But, Graham is approaching his mid 30s, so even though it is hard...he needs to go.  I would try to restructure Cox and see if you can get a deal done with Ertz, provided Ertz plays this year at a high level.  But, even then, it's not out of the question that both Cox and Ertz could be gone, too.  Maybe see what you can get in a trade soon.

The time to move Ertz was after last season.         Listen, building NFL teams is like chess - it is always about thinking a few moves ahead.          The franchises that stay competitive year after year are always thinking beyond the present, regardless of how 'heartless' it might appear to most fans.           This foolish "pay the man" attitude is exactly what leads to the mediocrity we are now seeing.              Drafting Goedert was brilliant, but only if it was followed up with moving Ertz when his value was sky high.

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18 hours ago, birdgang said:

Don't you guys think we need a legitimate talent evaluator for college players? I know howie has final say on who the draft picks are but who puts together the board? Maybe bringing in some guys who actually know how to evaluate college talent and advise howie could be the cure

We've needed that for 20 years and haven't had it.           But the answer is to remove Roseman completely from the draft process - we've seen the results of "advise and Howie makes the decision"  since Douglas was here, and the results remain middling and head scratching.           Just go and get a legitimate NFL GM, someone from a successful franchise  who has seen it done properly, and let them run the show.          I'd like to see Roseman gone completely, but he seems to be the son Lurie never had, so that probably isn't in the cards, unfortunately.

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They need to decide now if they are going to sign Ertz or not.  If you are not going to sign him then you just have to trade him.  In a crappy season with no chance of winning anything you have to move one of your only tradeable players.  You can't let him walk for nothing even if it is a second or a third you need to get that pick back because you have so many holes on your team....

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On 9/28/2020 at 10:00 AM, Thrive said:

This current team looks completely different with a QB playing at a high level.

Ignoring all the background noise going on behind the scenes, Carson Wentz is the problem with this team. I hate to admit it but it’s the truth. I think the rest of our team has played bad enough for us to have at least two wins so far. 

The task for the offseason is to fix the QB situation.

I could agree here, but this defense is garbage, too. I’m not sure if it’s underperforming players, stale and non aggressive scheme, or both. 

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36 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

The time to move Ertz was after last season.         Listen, building NFL teams is like chess - it is always about thinking a few moves ahead.          The franchises that stay competitive year after year are always thinking beyond the present, regardless of how 'heartless' it might appear to most fans.           This foolish "pay the man" attitude is exactly what leads to the mediocrity we are now seeing.              Drafting Goedert was brilliant, but only if it was followed up with moving Ertz when his value was sky high.

And now Ertz production and trade value are decreasing and he's had a public demand for more money even arguing in front of everyone else at practice.  Imagine moving him last year for a 2nd round pick and a future mid-round such as next year's 4th.  Imagine addressing the defense or Offensive line with two 2nd round picks in this last draft.  Or using that extra draft pick to move up and take Lamb and still have a 2nd round pick to select.  Gives you several options.

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47 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

In many cases that was also the smart play after the Super Bowl.          There were several guys whose value would never be higher (Graham!!) that could have been moved for picks.           A smart, savvy GM, without the idiotic loyalty, could have retooled that group on the fly, but the Eagles don't possess anyone like that.

Do a lot of teams do that, sell off their players right after winning?  I know players want to cash in and they leave in free agency, heck Beau Allen did that as a backup (I would have kept him btw).  

I can understand a team that hadn't won since 1960 finally winning a SB and having a QB coming back from injury who they think is going to be elite and if he plays that way again, they could be right back in it.  They were 13-3 and won a SB.   I have no problem with them trying to load up for a 2nd SB and try to capitalize. But they realized a year too late they were holding onto players from that team to try and recapture.  The worst of the contract extensions was Alshon, what a waste.

The main issue we keep coming back to is they can't draft.  They have to supplement far too much with free agency and trades.  Most of their best players were selected be Reid or Chip:  Kelce, Peters, Cox, Jenkins, Ertz, Lane, Graham...  Howie drafted Goedert who everyone knew would be good and partly to keep him away from the Cowboys.  The only other great player is Sanders who was a the last year of Joe Douglas influence and again everyone knew he'd be good.  

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47 minutes ago, NOTW said:

And now Ertz production and trade value are decreasing and he's had a public demand for more money even arguing in front of everyone else at practice.  Imagine moving him last year for a 2nd round pick and a future mid-round such as next year's 4th.  Imagine addressing the defense or Offensive line with two 2nd round picks in this last draft.  Or using that extra draft pick to move up and take Lamb and still have a 2nd round pick to select.  Gives you several options.

Exactly, and some of us were saying just that at the time.        To succeed consistently the way the league is set up now requires a certain amount of coldblooded-ness and ruthlessness, as much as most fans don't like to see their favorites gone.

Rewarding players for past performance is a sure ticket to extended mediocrity in the NFL.

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43 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Do a lot of teams do that, sell off their players right after winning?  I know players want to cash in and they leave in free agency, heck Beau Allen did that as a backup (I would have kept him btw).  

I can understand a team that hadn't won since 1960 finally winning a SB and having a QB coming back from injury who they think is going to be elite and if he plays that way again, they could be right back in it.  They were 13-3 and won a SB.   I have no problem with them trying to load up for a 2nd SB and try to capitalize. But they realized a year too late they were holding onto players from that team to try and recapture.  The worst of the contract extensions was Alshon, what a waste.

The main issue we keep coming back to is they can't draft.  They have to supplement far too much with free agency and trades.  Most of their best players were selected be Reid or Chip:  Kelce, Peters, Cox, Jenkins, Ertz, Lane, Graham...  Howie drafted Goedert who everyone knew would be good and partly to keep him away from the Cowboys.  The only other great player is Sanders who was a the last year of Joe Douglas influence and again everyone knew he'd be good.  

I agree with the 'run it back' thing to a degree, but there were places you could get younger while cashing in on a decent vet coming off a career year - Graham was Exhibit A.        As soon as he was resigned,  I knew we were back in Howieville.

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27 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

I agree with the 'run it back' thing to a degree, but there were places you could get younger while cashing in on a decent vet coming off a career year - Graham was Exhibit A.        As soon as he was resigned,  I knew we were back in Howieville.

Yeah.  And what's scary like I pointed out the core good players on this team weren't picked by Howie, they were from Reid and even a couple from Chip.  On his own or even with Douglas they haven't got any real good players.  So you purge the older vets on this team and you have a bunch of scrubs or mediocre players with only a couple quality players.  

There's no money to sign guys the next couple years either so he can't buy his way out of it.

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14 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Yeah.  And what's scary like I pointed out the core good players on this team weren't picked by Howie, they were from Reid and even a couple from Chip.  On his own or even with Douglas they haven't got any real good players.  So you purge the older vets on this team and you have a bunch of scrubs or mediocre players with only a couple quality players.  

There's no money to sign guys the next couple years either so he can't buy his way out of it.

Right. This is the tough spot as a fan. Asking myself, would I prefer a total collapse, knowing Dallas is the likely winner of this division, and even more questions and concerns about Wentz arise? Or do I hope for a turn around knowing it’s unlikely with our schedule, and at best, is another first round exit with the 21st pick in the draft?

 

With the team in this state, it’s hard to keep apathy from setting in. 

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22 hours ago, NOTW said:

Salary cap issues, age and injury means you have to get rid of some of these guys even who are performing well.  Ertz, Cox, Graham, McLeod, Brooks, Jeffrey, DeSean Jackson, Peters, Malik Jackson, maybe more.

I'm good with all but Brooks. When healthy he's the top LG. Problem is he's been having trouble staying healthy and then there's his anxiety issues

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On 9/28/2020 at 9:59 AM, EagleJoe8 said:

Definitely agree on being too sentimental and the draft. I think his cap prowess has been overstated though and it looks like it’ll be hitting us hard next year. 

Some folks have made comments on how the league has caught up with Howie's cap management skills and have also backed off on dealing with him because he is a shark. And I think that is starting to ring a bit true. It would be offset a little but if he/we knew how to draft because you'd just have manageable/cheaper younger talent.

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No matter who it was on the team, what would you do with this player if you could get this cap relief at this amount of dead money by trading him after June 1st next year? Again, doesn't matter who it is. 

Cap Savings:

2021 - $25.4 million

2022 - $22 million

2023 - $25 million

2024 - $26 million

 

Dead Money:

2021 - $9.2 million

2022 - $9.2 million

2023 - $9.2 million

2024 - $6 million

 

 

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5 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

What's he worth on the market?  A 2nd or 3rd?  He's a top 5 tight end with a good 3 or 4 years ahead of him, but he's also wanting that type of money.

For me I look at the Jimmy Graham trade from NO to Seattle a few years back. He was one of the top TEs at the time, just one year younger than Ertz is now, being paid a lot... very similar situation. He got the Saints I believe a 1st plus Max Unger, who was an all-pro center. 
 

Graham was SLIGHTLY younger, and had more than a year left on his deal so they wouldn’t get that good of a haul, but I don’t see why Ertz couldn’t fetch a 2nd. Maybe even a first, if it’s a team who thinks they are one pass catcher away from being a legit contender. 

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