Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[Ray75]

2 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I think that's a little harsh mate. You have to give him some credit for that. A lot of those moves before 2017 were great. Wentz looked a legitimate superstar before his injury in the Super Bowl year. He's picked up some really nice players as well (Jeffery was a great pick up before that contract). You have to give him credit for players like Ward, Fulgham, Sanders, Goedert etc.

But yeah I see the big faults as well, particularly in ignoring the LB position and not addressing the secondary properly beyond Slay. (Didn't replace Jenkins adequately, CB2 was a disaster etc)

 

Wink is right. You have to look past the last 3 years alone. Howie’s been in office for the last 10 years. For all the good things he’s done, he made twice as many mistakes.

He missed on so many players in the draft it’s not even funny anymore. Passing on prospects who turn into stars elsewhere about every year. He only has a few hits to show for in 10 years of drafting.

Since the days of Sheldon Brown and Asante Samuel, he constantly tried to fill the blanks with castoffs. From Cary Williams to Bradley Fletcher to Nolan Carroll to Byron Maxwell to Ronald Darby to Jalen Mills.

And when he finally decides to use a high draft pick on one, he takes another flyer on an injured Sidney Jones. Never going for the sure thing in the first (could have easily traded up for the likes of Marcus Peters, Marshon Lattimore or Kyle Fuller), always devaluating the position until it’s too late and you’re forced to sign an expensive FA or trade for a quality corner (Slay).

Shall I continue?! Nah, I won’t bore you with all the details concerning those other two positions he constantly neglects! Malcolm Jenkins and Rodney McCleod were FA hits but we had to wait for that to happen for years since Dawk left.

Demeco Ryans, Jordan Hicks and Nigel Bradham were the best LB’s we had since Jeremiah Trotter...

And how about receiver?! DJax and Maclin were the best WR’s drafted by the Eagles. Agholor was a Chip Kelly bust but what about JJAW?! Could’ve had Metcalf there! Could’ve had Jefferson instead of Reagor this year (FYI I like Reagor).

This has to change! Devaluing specific  positions has to stop and we need to hit on draft picks a.s.a.p. 

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, Ray75 said:

This has to change! Devaluing specific  positions has to stop and we need to hit on draft picks a.s.a.p. 

Ding ding ding call it this one is over. 

😄

[NOTW]

5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Ding ding ding call it this one is over. 

😄

I think every year for about 4-5 years now fans keep saying THIS is the draft Howie has to absolutely nail it or else the team is going to suffer.

We've been waiting year after year to get it right. 

[EagleJoe8]

10 minutes ago, NOTW said:

I think every year for about 4-5 years now fans keep saying THIS is the draft Howie has to absolutely nail it or else the team is going to suffer.

We've been waiting year after year to get it right. 

I stopped holding my breath a long time ago lol. 

[kiwieagle]

It’s pretty evident that the failures of the last few drafts are haunting this team now. The Wentz trade (combined with Howie’s mid-season trades) depleted us of high picks which made it more important to hit the ones that we still had left. Looking back you have a very sad reality:

2017 draft we got Barnett who is okay/good but nothing special and then pretty much whiffed the rest of the draft

2018 was ok for the picks we made - got Goedert and some solid contributors but we simply lacked picks, particularly top 3 rounds

2019 was the big one. We finally had 3 high picks. Needed to nail them and all we can say right now is that we got sanders, and a couple of question marks at best. Dillard has been injured but the signs during TC weren’t promising. Don’t get me started on JJAW.

You simply aren’t building a winner by missing so many picks.

Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that if Fulgham develops and becomes what JJAW should be, that gives us a bit of mulligan on the 2019 draft. Coming away with a starting RB and WR out of that draft would be OK. Similarly if Mailata can be the LT - the Dillard (potential miss) won’t seem so bad. Spending a 1st and 7th to find your LT, you do all day. Those two plugging two big holes for us would going forward would be big and allows us to concentrate future picks on the other areas that need it such as IOL, DL, LB, CB, S

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 hours ago, NOTW said:

I think every year for about 4-5 years now fans keep saying THIS is the draft Howie has to absolutely nail it or else the team is going to suffer.

We've been waiting year after year to get it right. 

And yet some fans still want to give him more time. Still want to give him another draft for him to nail. Ignoring all of the evidence that he can't draft and that this roster is so bad and in such cap hell. 

[Ray75]

2 hours ago, kiwieagle said:

Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that if Fulgham develops and becomes what JJAW should be, that gives us a bit of mulligan on the 2019 draft. Coming away with a starting RB and WR out of that draft would be OK. Similarly if Mailata can be the LT - the Dillard (potential miss) won’t seem so bad. Spending a 1st and 7th to find your LT, you do all day. Those two plugging two big holes for us would going forward would be big and allows us to concentrate future picks on the other areas that need it such as IOL, DL, LB, CB, S

Exactly that could be the silver lining to this season! Mailata and Fulgham becoming building blocks for the future.

Again next years draft should be the big one! The draft is loaded at WR, Safety and LB and the CB class isn’t looking shabby either.

If we trade Ertz and get something nice in return, say a late 2nd, FO will have no excuses to F this up again! 

If we end up with a top 15 pick, there will definitely be really good prospects on the board. Corners like Wade, Farley and Surtain, a LB like Moses, WR’s like Waddle, Bateman and Smith. There’s no wrong here...

Personally I prefer to go CB in the first. Get that one right for a change!

Both the WR and LB class look deeper. It will be easier to find a quality WR and LB in the second than a good corner IMO.

WR prospects like Ross, Olave, Surratt, St. Brown, Wallace etc and LB prospects like Bolton, Surratt, McGrone, Cox etc could all be available in the second while the CB class shows a steep drop off after the first 4 maybe 5 corners are off the board.

But hey, don’t take my word for it, it’s just an opinion.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

14 minutes ago, Ray75 said:

If we trade Ertz and get something nice in return, say a late 2nd, FO will have no excuses to F this up again! 

If it is the same FO then they will mess it up. We can have very little faith in them that they won't mess it up. 

[Cochis_Calhoun]

2 hours ago, kiwieagle said:

It’s pretty evident that the failures of the last few drafts are haunting this team now. The Wentz trade (combined with Howie’s mid-season trades) depleted us of high picks which made it more important to hit the ones that we still had left. Looking back you have a very sad reality:

2017 draft we got Barnett who is okay/good but nothing special and then pretty much whiffed the rest of the draft

2018 was ok for the picks we made - got Goedert and some solid contributors but we simply lacked picks, particularly top 3 rounds

2019 was the big one. We finally had 3 high picks. Needed to nail them and all we can say right now is that we got sanders, and a couple of question marks at best. Dillard has been injured but the signs during TC weren’t promising. Don’t get me started on JJAW.

You simply aren’t building a winner by missing so many picks.

Having said that, I am cautiously optimistic that if Fulgham develops and becomes what JJAW should be, that gives us a bit of mulligan on the 2019 draft. Coming away with a starting RB and WR out of that draft would be OK. Similarly if Mailata can be the LT - the Dillard (potential miss) won’t seem so bad. Spending a 1st and 7th to find your LT, you do all day. Those two plugging two big holes for us would going forward would be big and allows us to concentrate future picks on the other areas that need it such as IOL, DL, LB, CB, S

2018 was the worst, we traded out of the first to mid second meaning we missed genuine starting quality at RB (Chubb), WR {Courtland Sutton) interior O line (Will Hernandez, Braden Smith, James Daniels) and Linebacker (Darius Leonard) to take a second string TE, and before anyone says we play a lot of 2 TE sets, yes we do and we absolutely suck at it, we've been the worst team in the league in 12 personnel since drafting Goedert. 

 

[Ray75]

43 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

2018 was the worst, we traded out of the first to mid second meaning we missed genuine starting quality at RB (Chubb), WR {Courtland Sutton) interior O line (Will Hernandez, Braden Smith, James Daniels) and Linebacker (Darius Leonard) to take a second string TE, and before anyone says we play a lot of 2 TE sets, yes we do and we absolutely suck at it, we've been the worst team in the league in 12 personnel since drafting Goedert. 

 

Another example of a missed opportunity.

Then again; Goedert is good and gives us the flexibility to move on from Ertz if we really want to.

[Ray75]

33 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

If it is the same FO then they will mess it up. We can have very little faith in them that they won't mess it up. 

If they’d listen to draft experts and read scouting reports more often and not be so stubborn and trying to outsmart everybody, they might nail it for once.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

26 minutes ago, Ray75 said:

Another example of a missed opportunity.

Then again; Goedert is good and gives us the flexibility to move on from Ertz if we really want to.

Any tall guy with decent hands would've given us flexibility to move on from Ertz, his numbers are volume driven if you're getting 130-140 targets a year you're going to post gaudy yardages unless you're a bum, guarantee when Goedert starts he'll put up Kittle numbers, because our offense is funneled through the number 1 TE. You can pick up tall pass catching TE's in late rounds in pretty much any draft, Darren Waller had a thousand yards receiving last year after spending 3 years bouncing in and out of Baltimore's PS.

[Ray75]

15 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

Any tall guy with decent hands would've given us flexibility to move on from Ertz, his numbers are volume driven if you're getting 130-140 targets a year you're going to post gaudy yardages unless you're a bum, guarantee when Goedert starts he'll put up Kittle numbers, because our offense is funneled through the number 1 TE. You can pick up tall pass catching TE's in late rounds in pretty much any draft, Darren Waller had a thousand yards receiving last year after spending 3 years bouncing in and out of Baltimore's PS.

And that’s exactly where I’m at now!

Trade Ertz for a late 2nd/early 3rd, start Goedert once he’s healthy and draft another TE in the mid to late rounds next year.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, Ray75 said:

If they’d listen to draft experts and read scouting reports more often and not be so stubborn and trying to outsmart everybody, they might nail it for once.

Howie thinks he's too smart for that to be honest. This is why we both agree he's got to go go go. 

[NOTW]

5 hours ago, Ray75 said:

Exactly that could be the silver lining to this season! Mailata and Fulgham becoming building blocks for the future.

Again next years draft should be the big one! The draft is loaded at WR, Safety and LB and the CB class isn’t looking shabby either.

If we trade Ertz and get something nice in return, say a late 2nd, FO will have no excuses to F this up again! 

If we end up with a top 15 pick, there will definitely be really good prospects on the board. Corners like Wade, Farley and Surtain, a LB like Moses, WR’s like Waddle, Bateman and Smith. There’s no wrong here...

Personally I prefer to go CB in the first. Get that one right for a change!

Both the WR and LB class look deeper. It will be easier to find a quality WR and LB in the second than a good corner IMO.

WR prospects like Ross, Olave, Surratt, St. Brown, Wallace etc and LB prospects like Bolton, Surratt, McGrone, Cox etc could all be available in the second while the CB class shows a steep drop off after the first 4 maybe 5 corners are off the board.

But hey, don’t take my word for it, it’s just an opinion.

 

No disrespect here, but this is exactly what I was referring to in my post, quoted below.

How many times have we got excited and hopeful for a deep draft class and suggest if only they could draft...

Look at 2017. Deep at corner and RB. Terrible draft year by the Eagles. 

As long as Howie is the GM, expect annual disappointment in the draft.

10 hours ago, NOTW said:

I think every year for about 4-5 years now fans keep saying THIS is the draft Howie has to absolutely nail it or else the team is going to suffer.

We've been waiting year after year to get it right. 

 

[NOTW]

4 hours ago, Ray75 said:

If they’d listen to draft experts and read scouting reports more often and not be so stubborn and trying to outsmart everybody, they might nail it for once.

Sad that our hope is in the decision makers listening to outside experts. If that's the case, hire me and I'll draft based on other people's opinions it will save them money. We'll do an EMB poll for each pick.

Seriously, if the GM isn't making good picks and we suggest he listen to others scouting and analysis...

...then we've got the wrong guy in the GM role. Fire him and get someone to do their own scouting and analysis where you don't need outside help, you've got the team in-house making good decisions! 

[Ray75]

13 minutes ago, NOTW said:

No disrespect here, but this is exactly what I was referring to in my post, quoted below.

How many times have we got excited and hopeful for a deep draft class and suggest if only they could draft...

Look at 2017. Deep at corner and RB. Terrible draft year by the Eagles. 

As long as Howie is the GM, expect annual disappointment in the draft.

 

Still waiting for the day Lurie takes those privileges away from him and passes it on to a truly good talent evaluator and football mind...

[Ray75]

2 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Sad that our hope is in the decision makers listening to outside experts. If that's the case, hire me and I'll draft based on other people's opinions it will save them money. We'll do an EMB poll for each pick.

Seriously, if the GM isn't making good picks and we suggest he listen to others scouting and analysis...

...then we've got the wrong guy in the GM role. Fire him and get someone to do their own scouting and analysis where you don't need outside help, you've got the team in-house making good decisions! 

Touche! Exactly my point! Clearly Howie can’t do it by himself and keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

If Howie would just use a couple of random top prospect lists and ditch the entire scouting departement, he’d probably do a better job if he sticks to the board!

[NOTW]

Just now, Ray75 said:

Touche! Exactly my point! Clearly Howie can’t do it by himself and keeps making the same mistakes over and over again.

If Howie would just use a couple of random top prospect lists and ditch the entire scouting departement, he’d probably do a better job if he sticks to the board!

He needs to be fired and get someone from a team that consistently drafts well and the entire scouting and personnel department needs an overhaul.

[Bloodtype_Green]

This squad needs a HUGE shake-up, but through this mess it's amazing that a couple pieces are shining at important positions:

LT- Maliata

WR- Fulgham

DE- Sweat

Three key positions with three talented young players.  It's like hitting a homerun with your eyes closed. 

[EagleJoe8]

9 minutes ago, Ray75 said:

Still waiting for the day Lurie takes those privileges away from him and passes it on to a truly good talent evaluator and football mind...

He can’t just take privileges away. Howie needs to be replaced entirely. Out of the organization. 

[NOTW]

9 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

He can’t just take privileges away. Howie needs to be replaced entirely. Out of the organization. 

Yup. Otherwise in a year or 2 he'll tske over again. 

And let's realize: he isn't a cap genius anymore. He's good at it but kicked the can down the road so much now it's caught up. Next 2 years cap is bad, and bad contracts and trades lately. He can't live on the past anymore. Other teams manage the cap and extend good contracts it's not like Howie is some rare commodity. 

[EagleJoe8]

Just now, NOTW said:

Yup. Otherwise in a year or 2 he'll tske over again. 

And let's realize: he isn't a cap genius anymore. He's good at it but kicked the can down the road so much now it's caught up. Next 2 years cap is bad, and bad contracts and trades lately. He can't live on the past anymore. Other teams manage the cap and extend good contracts it's not like Howie is some rare commodity. 

Exactly. I’ve echoed the same sentiment as well. It isn’t like 31 of 32 teams are all in cap hell. And we seem to be headed there. 

[Vileborg]

On 10/6/2020 at 7:22 AM, birdman#12 said:

I don't give a sh-- about the division......the patriots have benefitted from a lousy division for 20 years.  It's the way the NFL is set up...and there are only 6 teams out of 16 in each conference to make the playoffs........its idiotic to complain about them making the playoffs, regardless of how.  10-6 and 9-7 teams have won super bowls.

And you have no proof that Roseman does any worse than most GM's, you're just guessing at it.  And maybe Howie knows a little more than the fan base on how to handle the cap. I've been listening to fans whine about the cap for years, yet every year Roseman signs plenty of good players.

Again, injuries are the biggest issue plaguing this team.......and nobody knows the answer to that.....firing Roseman isn't the answer.

 

No proof? Where have you been. I researched and wrote an article about how historically bad we've been at drafting compared to other teams. Do yourself a favor and look at the facts. My article disappeared with the old boards but here is your evidence done by  PFF. We've been historically bad in terms of both draft capital and return since Howie's return to power. The red blocks means last in the league which we tend to be doing a lot lately. We're 32nd in capital and 31st in return over the last 5 years. Great way to build a team.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2020/nfl-drafting-efficiency-2010-2019

[QBhunter58]

13 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I stopped holding my breath a long time ago lol. 

same lol