Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[Road to Victory]

9 hours ago, QBhunter58 said:

A second round pick for Ertz is a steal

It is and it’s not. Think about the team getting Ertz is getting an immediate impact player. A player they probably wouldn’t get in the 2nd round. Sure, they have to pay him but at least you know what you’re getting. The Eagles would be getting a 2nd rounder which could be Sidney Jones or JJ Arcega-Whiteside. 
 

I always thought NFL teams value draft picks way too much. 

[EazyEaglez]

36 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

It is and it’s not. Think about the team getting Ertz is getting an immediate impact player. A player they probably wouldn’t get in the 2nd round. Sure, they have to pay him but at least you know what you’re getting. The Eagles would be getting a 2nd rounder which could be Sidney Jones or JJ Arcega-Whiteside. 
 

I always thought NFL teams value draft picks way too much. 

I somewhat agree, but I feel that if your team doing much better with their picks instead of constantly drafting players like JJAW and Jones you might feel differently. 

[NOTW]

2 hours ago, Road to Victory said:

It is and it’s not. Think about the team getting Ertz is getting an immediate impact player. A player they probably wouldn’t get in the 2nd round. Sure, they have to pay him but at least you know what you’re getting. The Eagles would be getting a 2nd rounder which could be Sidney Jones or JJ Arcega-Whiteside. 
 

I always thought NFL teams value draft picks way too much. 

Sometimes you can sucker a team close to the trade deadline because they need impact now whereas at draft time teams are focused on their draft position and have their sights on certain guys they've been scouting. 

They could get a 2021 2nd and 2022 4th/conditional type pick.

Imagine doing that deal last year then using an extra 2nd to trade up for Lamb, and still having a 2nd to draft. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

6 hours ago, NOTW said:

Sometimes you can sucker a team close to the trade deadline because they need impact now whereas at draft time teams are focused on their draft position and have their sights on certain guys they've been scouting. 

Absolutely! Some teams by the trade deadline will be thinking they are contenders and if they could add an elite pass catcher that could put them over the top. 

We gave up a third for Tate... Ertz is a much better player. 

[eglz1]

On 9/28/2020 at 9:59 AM, EagleJoe8 said:

Definitely agree on being too sentimental and the draft. I think his cap prowess has been overstated though and it looks like it’ll be hitting us hard next year. 

Howie's 'kick the can down the road' philosophy works as long as the cap continues to grow. The year(s) it doesn't though, look out. And the less said about his drafting prowness the better.

[EagleJoe8]

13 minutes ago, eglz1 said:

Howie's 'kick the can down the road' philosophy works as long as the cap continues to grow. The year(s) it doesn't though, look out. And the less said about his drafting prowness the better.

Exactly why he needs to be removed completely. 

[Traveler Vic]

In a way we have Jason Garret and Jerry Jones situation here in Philly. As sad as it may be...We may be stuck with Howie and the disaster that he will continue to cause,.... until Lurie  wakes up and realizes it is not 2017. The fans will not excuse Howie, but Lurie might. Howie has 2020 as an excuse, and that may be enough to give him extra time as a SB winning GM, with SB coach DP near him, in the eyes of Lurie.  Lurie is not stupid, but he can afford financially  to take pain for a lot longer than people think. I remember Dallas NFL writers offering their soul to Satan if the Cowboys could only get rid of Jerry Jones. I hope it does not come to this with the Eagles. I hope Lurie is not as egotistical as Jones...but right now i suspect that that may be the case.

[mjkvol]

On 10/2/2020 at 8:10 PM, NOTW said:

Sometimes you can sucker a team close to the trade deadline because they need impact now whereas at draft time teams are focused on their draft position and have their sights on certain guys they've been scouting. 

They could get a 2021 2nd and 2022 4th/conditional type pick.

Imagine doing that deal last year then using an extra 2nd to trade up for Lamb, and still having a 2nd to draft. 

And that's the whole crux of the matter.       Smart organizations know when to cut bait on players to maximize their value and build assets for future dealing, and part of that is solid drafting.         Picking Goedert was a brilliant move - only if Ertz was traded when his value was highest.         If the plan was to sign Ertz to a big money deal, why on earth would you waste valuable draft capital on another TE?             To keep him from Dallas?

We can point out many questionable individual moves, both signings and draft picks, but the bottom line is that there isn't a coherent plan in place, and there never will be as long as Roseman and this 'collaborative'  decision making system is in place here.

[mjkvol]

On 10/2/2020 at 5:45 PM, Road to Victory said:

It is and it’s not. Think about the team getting Ertz is getting an immediate impact player. A player they probably wouldn’t get in the 2nd round. Sure, they have to pay him but at least you know what you’re getting. The Eagles would be getting a 2nd rounder which could be Sidney Jones or JJ Arcega-Whiteside. 
 

I always thought NFL teams value draft picks way too much. 

That's certainly true if your team drafts poorly.          Optimally, those 1st and 2nd day picks are the future impact players and core you build around, but when they are squandered on bad desperation trades like the Tate trade or head scratching picks like Hurts and flat out bad ones like JJAW and others,  it's going to catch up to you.           All the band aid cheap signings in the world can't save a roster on the decline.

Unless and until it is understood that this isn't a contender, or even close to that, and 'patching holes' won't solve the issues here, then the Eagles will continue this downward spiral.          If that means wasting Wentz' prime, it sure appears that unless something changes his prime isn't going to be anything close to what we were hoping for anyway.

[ManchesterEagle]

I don't get this rebuild talk. If we win tonight at San Fran, we are top of what is turning out to be an extremely competitive division.

[eaglegenius]

4 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I don't get this rebuild talk. If we win tonight at San Fran, we are top of what is turning out to be an extremely competitive division.

What? Oh, you mean competing for the bottom of the barrel. Right. Well that makes sense.
We just barely beat a team with 10 of its starters out, including most of their star players.
And we can thank our defense who did most of the heavy lifting.

But we just might beat the Gnats. So there's that.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, eaglegenius said:

What? Oh, you mean competing for the bottom of the barrel. Right. Well that makes sense.
We just barely beat a team with 10 of its starters out, including most of their star players.
And we can thank our defense who did most of the heavy lifting.

But we just might beat the Gnats. So there's that.

 

To be fair though we are without many of our starters as well.

I mean just off the top of my hand... Starting LT Dillard, replacement LT Peters, starting RG Brooks, starting LG Seumalo. And then at times yesterday we were without our starting RT Johnson.

Rotational DE Curry and at times Cox went down yesterday.

Then we were without our CB #2 Maddox, his back up Williams and then on top of that we are missing a back up safety in Parks.

And then at WR we were without Reagor, Jackson, Jeffrey, JJAW...

Am I missing anyone else?

So yeah SF have their injuries too but I have no sympathy for them! We do too and we have dealt with these injuries for 2 years now. 

[ManchesterEagle]

6 hours ago, eaglegenius said:

What? Oh, you mean competing for the bottom of the barrel. Right. Well that makes sense.
We just barely beat a team with 10 of its starters out, including most of their star players.
And we can thank our defense who did most of the heavy lifting.

But we just might beat the Gnats. So there's that.

 

 

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

To be fair though we are without many of our starters as well.

I mean just off the top of my hand... Starting LT Dillard, replacement LT Peters, starting RG Brooks, starting LG Seumalo. And then at times yesterday we were without our starting RT Johnson.

Rotational DE Curry and at times Cox went down yesterday.

Then we were without our CB #2 Maddox, his back up Williams and then on top of that we are missing a back up safety in Parks.

And then at WR we were without Reagor, Jackson, Jeffrey, JJAW...

Am I missing anyone else?

So yeah SF have their injuries too but I have no sympathy for them! We do too and we have dealt with these injuries for 2 years now. 

Don't forget Goedert mate - one of the top 10 TEs in the league!

Yeah - they were crippled with injuries, but we were just as bad if not worse. Credit where's credit due, they went on the road and beat the NFC Champions who were 2-1 going in. Eagles did a good job today.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Don't forget Goedert mate - one of the top 10 TEs in the league!

Yeah - they were crippled with injuries, but we were just as bad if not worse. Credit where's credit due, they went on the road and beat the NFC Champions who were 2-1 going in. Eagles did a good job today.

Oh yeah of course Goedert too! See I knew I would forget someone. Just happens to have been one of our best receivers.

[eaglegenius]

5 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Oh yeah of course Goedert too! See I knew I would forget someone. Just happens to have been one of our best receivers.

Going back to the original point, rebuilding the team includes replacing all the injury prone players on the team.
And maybe the team's physical conditioning coach as well. Otherwise we can expect only more of the same in
the years to come.

I also think Jalen Hurts adds little to the team, other than as an extra back-up. It's obvious to the opponents
what he's about to do whenever he's injected into the line-up and they easily shut it down. But with Wentz's
propensity to get injured, he may have some real value down the line.

5 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Yeah - they were crippled with injuries, but we were just as bad if not worse. 

I wouldn't compare the loss of Peters and Jackson to the loss of game-changers like Garopolo or Bosa.

But on the plus side, besides the likelihood of a high draft pick this year, there's a silver lining in discovering we have some ballers 
like Fulgham, Avery, Edwards and Singleton ready to step up. Even Mailata was an improvement over a beat-up Peters.

 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

28 minutes ago, eaglegenius said:

Going back to the original point, rebuilding the team includes replacing all the injury prone players on the team.
And maybe the team's physical conditioning coach as well. Otherwise we can expect only more of the same in
the years to come.

I also think Jalen Hurts adds little to the team, other than as an extra back-up. It's obvious to the opponents
what he's about to do whenever he's injected into the line-up and they easily shut it down. But with Wentz's
propensity to get injured, he may have some real value down the line.

If the reason they drafted Hurts was truly as a back to Wentz for a few years then I mean... That just about says it all for this FO. Instead of grabbing a player to make a difference we try to be the smartest in the room. 

[ManchesterEagle]

46 minutes ago, eaglegenius said:

Going back to the original point, rebuilding the team includes replacing all the injury prone players on the team.
And maybe the team's physical conditioning coach as well. Otherwise we can expect only more of the same in
the years to come.

I also think Jalen Hurts adds little to the team, other than as an extra back-up. It's obvious to the opponents
what he's about to do whenever he's injected into the line-up and they easily shut it down. But with Wentz's
propensity to get injured, he may have some real value down the line.

I wouldn't compare the loss of Peters and Jackson to the loss of game-changers like Garopolo or Bosa.

But on the plus side, besides the likelihood of a high draft pick this year, there's a silver lining in discovering we have some ballers 
like Fulgham, Avery, Edwards and Singleton ready to step up. Even Mailata was an improvement over a beat-up Peters.

 

 

17 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

If the reason they drafted Hurts was truly as a back to Wentz for a few years then I mean... That just about says it all for this FO. Instead of grabbing a player to make a difference we try to be the smartest in the room. 

Bosa is one of the best DEs in the league I'll grant you. But Garoppolo isn't that good. Jackson and Peters are bad examples. Brandon Brooks and Goedert are better ones. 

As for Hurts, the reality is that he is Wentz injury/poor play insurance and intended to be an alternative option down the line. Still don't like the pick and I agree he's a waste of time at the moment in these packages.

[NOTW]

18 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I don't get this rebuild talk. If we win tonight at San Fran, we are top of what is turning out to be an extremely competitive division.

Did you read through the topic?  Many points were made about the aging roster, cap issues that will create a need to purge, the horrid drafting that leaves them with not much young talent to replace them, plus the LB and secondary groups are weak or you could even argue awful apart from Slay and McLeod who is one of those aging vets that won't be here much longer.

This is the problem with this team where they scrape together wins in a weak division and then won't last in the playoffs.  Let's see how they do against the Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks, Packers, and Saints this year.  

The issue is Howie needs to go and they need a solid GM and personnel evaluation overhaul.  They need to draft better.  Even Howie's best asset used to be handling the cap and contracts and he's done a poor job there in recent years.  

This team is starting to remind me of the later Reid years where it was obvious to many fans that the team was never going to compete with the best in the NFL, the good coaches left for other teams and the replacements weren't as good, the drafting was bad and the team would win just enough games to not warrant blowing it up but not do well enough to win a championship.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Bosa is one of the best DEs in the league I'll grant you. But Garoppolo isn't that good. Jackson and Peters are bad examples. Brandon Brooks and Goedert are better ones. 

As for Hurts, the reality is that he is Wentz injury/poor play insurance and intended to be an alternative option down the line. Still don't like the pick and I agree he's a waste of time at the moment in these packages.

Boss is an elite talent. Sherman is still a pretty good corner. Moestert is a good RB and sure I'm no huge Jimmy G guy but he's a lot better than what they put out there. If Jimmy G is in the game yesterday I think they win.

[ManchesterEagle]

3 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Did you read through the topic?  Many points were made about the aging roster, cap issues that will create a need to purge, the horrid drafting that leaves them with not much young talent to replace them, plus the LB and secondary groups are weak or you could even argue awful apart from Slay and McLeod who is one of those aging vets that won't be here much longer.

This is the problem with this team where they scrape together wins in a weak division and then won't last in the playoffs.  Let's see how they do against the Steelers, Ravens, Seahawks, Packers, and Saints this year.  

The issue is Howie needs to go and they need a solid GM and personnel evaluation overhaul.  They need to draft better.  Even Howie's best asset used to be handling the cap and contracts and he's done a poor job there in recent years.  

This team is starting to remind me of the later Reid years where it was obvious to many fans that the team was never going to compete with the best in the NFL, the good coaches left for other teams and the replacements weren't as good, the drafting was bad and the team would win just enough games to not warrant blowing it up but not do well enough to win a championship.

I did not, however my comment was intended to be a sarcastic throw away comment about the weakness of the division rather than a meaningful contribution.

On Howie, perhaps. I still think he does a good job on cap management and his drafting isn't quite as bad as some people think. (JJAW for an example was an awful pick, but a lot of teams do miss.). I wouldn't mind if they could somehow have him job share with a better talent evaluator.

I do think their lack of focus on drafting talent on the D is a real concern. Ignoring linebacker has finally properly caught up to them as well. It's all well and good relying on 3rd round picks and mid-priced veterans like Kendricks/Hicks/Bradham etc. The scrubs we have at the moment are getting exposed.

[NOTW]

9 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

I did not, however my comment was intended to be a sarcastic throw away comment about the weakness of the division rather than a meaningful contribution.

On Howie, perhaps. I still think he does a good job on cap management and his drafting isn't quite as bad as some people think. (JJAW for an example was an awful pick, but a lot of teams do miss.). I wouldn't mind if they could somehow have him job share with a better talent evaluator.

I do think their lack of focus on drafting talent on the D is a real concern. Ignoring linebacker has finally properly caught up to them as well. It's all well and good relying on 3rd round picks and mid-priced veterans like Kendricks/Hicks/Bradham etc. The scrubs we have at the moment are getting exposed.

Howie's given bad contracts and put them in cap hell the next 2 seasons.  He's been kicking the can down the road and it's caught up to him.

They've tried different heads of personnel from Douglas to Weidle to Barry and it's the same issue:  bad drafting, ignoring positions, wasted picks, reaches and head scratchers.  My opinion is that the few good picks they make are more "can't miss" type prospects like Sanders and Goedert where everyone thought they would be good players.

The team has garbage at LB and a bunch of scrubs in the secondary.  Most of the best players on the team are leftover from Reid or Chip and they're all going to be gone soon.

 

[birdman#12]

LMAO at all the dump Howie talk.  This team has had one MAJOR issue since the super bowl win and that is INJURIES.  And the fact that they have made the playoffs for 3 straight years is a testament to how deep the roster has been.

Yeah, there is a bad contract or two, and the cap is tight, but that is a by product of having good players.  And he always manages to sign strategic free agents to build depth and an occasional starter.  The weak areas of the team also have to do with Pedersen and his coaching staff.  It isn't a one man decision making process.  

This team has had more injuries in critical positions than any other NFL team over the last 4 years.  And anybody who dismisses that is clueless.  It's a real problem with no clear answer.  But the amount of guys they lose has to cost them 2-3 games a year.

Fans whine about the drafting without ever really knowing how it measures up to other GMs.  Roseman is generally considered to be one of the top 5 GMs in the NFL year after year, so naturally philly fans want to dump him....f------- idiotic.  Fans cherry pick picks that didn't work out without ever considering that 31 other GMs didn't value certain guys well either.  It's a crap shoot, even with all the analytics.  Some guys have hit their peak in college and there's NO WAY to evaluate that.

Again, the biggest issue with the Eagles have been injuries.  But fans here call that an excuse.  If injuries don't matter, then neither does talent.  Teams will always take a step back or struggle when so many starters and backups lose significant time.

Just once, I'd like to see one of these rosters go thru a season with minimal major injuries.  I think most fans would change their tune about Roseman.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

24 minutes ago, birdman#12 said:

LMAO at all the dump Howie talk.  This team has had one MAJOR issue since the super bowl win and that is INJURIES.  And the fact that they have made the playoffs for 3 straight years is a testament to how deep the roster has been.

Yeah, there is a bad contract or two, and the cap is tight, but that is a by product of having good players.  And he always manages to sign strategic free agents to build depth and an occasional starter.  The weak areas of the team also have to do with Pedersen and his coaching staff.  It isn't a one man decision making process.  

This team has had more injuries in critical positions than any other NFL team over the last 4 years.  And anybody who dismisses that is clueless.  It's a real problem with no clear answer.  But the amount of guys they lose has to cost them 2-3 games a year.

Fans whine about the drafting without ever really knowing how it measures up to other GMs.  Roseman is generally considered to be one of the top 5 GMs in the NFL year after year, so naturally philly fans want to dump him....f------- idiotic.  Fans cherry pick picks that didn't work out without ever considering that 31 other GMs didn't value certain guys well either.  It's a crap shoot, even with all the analytics.  Some guys have hit their peak in college and there's NO WAY to evaluate that.

Again, the biggest issue with the Eagles have been injuries.  But fans here call that an excuse.  If injuries don't matter, then neither does talent.  Teams will always take a step back or struggle when so many starters and backups lose significant time.

Just once, I'd like to see one of these rosters go thru a season with minimal major injuries.  I think most fans would change their tune about Roseman.

We made the playoffs two straight years with 9 wins, I've struggled to find any other team that's managed to get in consecutive years with less than 10 wins in the 16 game era, we've made the play offs from a division that is godawful and we still needed an absolute powder puff run in last year to do it, the only good team we beat last year was Green Bay, which was an absolute shocker after a horrible start to the year (does this sound familiar yet?) except the difference from last year to this is that we haven't got a lot of bad teams to come down the stretch, our schedule is brutal.

We can make the play offs and go one and done by winning a division so bad that there could well be columns written about looking at the play off qualification criteria when the division winner gets in at .500 ahead of teams that are 11-5 or some nonsense, that doesn't mean that all staff and players that want to should come back next year and have another crack at it unchallenged.

Maybe the draft is a crap shoot, but damn if Howie doesn't shoot a whole boatload more crap than almost any other GM and there isn't just one or two bad contracts, find Pacos thread from last week (?) there's a load of bad contracts with phantom years and dead cap that are going to be kicking our a** the next few years and that's all Howie's work.

 

[PoconoDon]

Howie's ability to identify and acquire elite college talent is terrible. His historical performance shows that to be true. He should have nothing to do with that process.

[birdman#12]

1 hour ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

We made the playoffs two straight years with 9 wins, I've struggled to find any other team that's managed to get in consecutive years with less than 10 wins in the 16 game era, we've made the play offs from a division that is godawful and we still needed an absolute powder puff run in last year to do it, the only good team we beat last year was Green Bay, which was an absolute shocker after a horrible start to the year (does this sound familiar yet?) except the difference from last year to this is that we haven't got a lot of bad teams to come down the stretch, our schedule is brutal.

We can make the play offs and go one and done by winning a division so bad that there could well be columns written about looking at the play off qualification criteria when the division winner gets in at .500 ahead of teams that are 11-5 or some nonsense, that doesn't mean that all staff and players that want to should come back next year and have another crack at it unchallenged.

Maybe the draft is a crap shoot, but damn if Howie doesn't shoot a whole boatload more crap than almost any other GM and there isn't just one or two bad contracts, find Pacos thread from last week (?) there's a load of bad contracts with phantom years and dead cap that are going to be kicking our a** the next few years and that's all Howie's work.

 

I don't give a sh-- about the division......the patriots have benefitted from a lousy division for 20 years.  It's the way the NFL is set up...and there are only 6 teams out of 16 in each conference to make the playoffs........its idiotic to complain about them making the playoffs, regardless of how.  10-6 and 9-7 teams have won super bowls.

And you have no proof that Roseman does any worse than most GM's, you're just guessing at it.  And maybe Howie knows a little more than the fan base on how to handle the cap. I've been listening to fans whine about the cap for years, yet every year Roseman signs plenty of good players.

Again, injuries are the biggest issue plaguing this team.......and nobody knows the answer to that.....firing Roseman isn't the answer.