Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[NOTW]

32 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

I'm good with all but Brooks. When healthy he's the top LG. Problem is he's been having trouble staying healthy and then there's his anxiety issues

Brooks has had too many injuries and the team needs to get younger.  They're not going anywhere with this team they need to rebuild so there's no point keeping Brooks as they need a 2 year plan to get this right, and he'll be done by then.

[NOTW]

49 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Right. This is the tough spot as a fan. Asking myself, would I prefer a total collapse, knowing Dallas is the likely winner of this division, and even more questions and concerns about Wentz arise? Or do I hope for a turn around knowing it’s unlikely with our schedule, and at best, is another first round exit with the 21st pick in the draft?

 

With the team in this state, it’s hard to keep apathy from setting in. 

This team has been on the decline.  SB win, to playoff win, to playoff appearance and loss and now 0-3 with injuries happening practically every day.  The O line is starting to settle in a bit, but you lose Reagor and Goedert now, and as expected Jackson is hurt off and on and limited.  And Wentz is playing like garbage and in the last 3 seasons all his numbers prove mediocre at best.  Time to face it:  he performed well under Reich and Flip's scheme, coaching and influence and hasn't been great since.  There are some flashes but this year total regression.  The 14 new offensive coaches haven't helped anything.  They drafted 3 speed WRs and traded a draft pick for a veteran with speed and where's the speed in the passing game other than a couple plays to Reagor?  Last week they were back to having RB Miles Sanders as their deep threat.

The team is going nowhere.  They may claw back and win some meaningless games, hurt their draft position and Lurie and Howie will be fooled they can just make some tweaks and be right back in it, blame injuries again.

The team needs to be blown up.  And start with getting rid of Howie.  We got to enjoy a Super Bowl, now time to rebuild to a team that can sustain longer term success and more than 1 championship.  

[Mike030270]

11 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Brooks has had too many injuries and the team needs to get younger.  They're not going anywhere with this team they need to rebuild so there's no point keeping Brooks as they need a 2 year plan to get this right, and he'll be done by then.

Agreed. Just sucks that it's another player that plays well but gets hurt too much. Hicks was a good LB and probably our last good one but he couldn't stay healthy here

Of course he's with Cards now and last year played the whole season

[UK_EaglesFan89]

5 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

What's he worth on the market?  A 2nd or 3rd?  He's a top 5 tight end with a good 3 or 4 years ahead of him, but he's also wanting that type of money.

Yeah I'd say a second or third. Maybe a third and a late round pick? But at this point I would absolutely take that wouldn't you?

[Road to Victory]

3 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Right. This is the tough spot as a fan. Asking myself, would I prefer a total collapse, knowing Dallas is the likely winner of this division, and even more questions and concerns about Wentz arise? Or do I hope for a turn around knowing it’s unlikely with our schedule, and at best, is another first round exit with the 21st pick in the draft?

 

With the team in this state, it’s hard to keep apathy from setting in. 

Last year was fun but in the end we would’ve been better off not making the playoffs and CD Lamb would be an Eagle and not a Cowboy. Who knows what other changes that could’ve triggered, Maybe Garrett is still coaching which would be good for the Eagles although McCarthy hasn’t shown anything either. 

[EagleJoe8]

2 minutes ago, Road to Victory said:

Last year was fun but in the end we would’ve been better off not making the playoffs and CD Lamb would be an Eagle and not a Cowboy. Who knows what other changes that could’ve triggered, Maybe Garrett is still coaching which would be good for the Eagles although McCarthy hasn’t shown anything either. 

I think Garrett was on the outs barring at least an NFCCG appearance. As for us, I did want Wentz to get a playoff game under his belt even though I had no expectations of going far. It just sucks his experience was limited to one quarter and 4 passes for 1 completion. Pretty sure those stats will stand for at least another year. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 hours ago, nipples said:

For me I look at the Jimmy Graham trade from NO to Seattle a few years back. He was one of the top TEs at the time, just one year younger than Ertz is now, being paid a lot... very similar situation. He got the Saints I believe a 1st plus Max Unger, who was an all-pro center. 
 

Graham was SLIGHTLY younger, and had more than a year left on his deal so they wouldn’t get that good of a haul, but I don’t see why Ertz couldn’t fetch a 2nd. Maybe even a first, if it’s a team who thinks they are one pass catcher away from being a legit contender. 

That would be much better compensation than I pictured, but the example is a good one.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Yeah I'd say a second or third. Maybe a third and a late round pick? But at this point I would absolutely take that wouldn't you?

Depends on where the 2nd lands me and what other picks come along with it to even consider it .  Four reasons.  A first would be more my speed, but I don't see it.

• He's still highly productive TE in this league that is  highly incorporated in our offense.
• The WRs that we need to move away from 12 personnel aren't developing fast enough to remove his production and adjust the scheme.
• He is still Wentz's most reliable target and has the best relationship with our QB.
• He is one of the team's leaders.

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Depends on where the 2nd lands me and what other picks come along with it to even consider it .  Four reasons.  A first would be more my speed, but I don't see it.

• He's still highly productive TE in this league that is  highly incorporated in our offense.
• The WRs that we need to move away from 12 personnel aren't developing fast enough to remove his production and adjust the scheme.
• He is still Wentz's most reliable target and has the best relationship with our QB.
• He is one of the team's leaders.

I'll counter with:

• They have Goedert ready to replace him.
• He wants more money and the Eagles are in cap hell the next 2 years.
• He argued with Howie in front of everyone.
• Wentz had a great relationship with Jordan Matthews too...and seems to already with Goedert and Ward.  A franchise QB should have good relationship with all his receivers especially after 5 seasons.  He will grow with Goedert, Reagor, Ward and others.
• Being a veteran doesn't automatically mean you're a leader.  
• The team is going south fast.  They're not competing for a championship and signing his extension will cost too much given the cap situation.  At this point you rebuild and only keep young core players.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

4 hours ago, NOTW said:

I'll counter with:

• They have Goedert ready to replace him.
• He wants more money and the Eagles are in cap hell the next 2 years.
• He argued with Howie in front of everyone.
• Wentz had a great relationship with Jordan Matthews too...and seems to already with Goedert and Ward.  A franchise QB should have good relationship with all his receivers especially after 5 seasons.  He will grow with Goedert, Reagor, Ward and others.
• Being a veteran doesn't automatically mean you're a leader.  
• The team is going south fast.  They're not competing for a championship and signing his extension will cost too much given the cap situation.  At this point you rebuild and only keep young core players.

So you would take a 2nd round pick?  I don't think that's enough.  My point being those 4 reasons make it hard to take less than a 1st.  

[NOTW]

35 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

So you would take a 2nd round pick?  I don't think that's enough.  My point being those 4 reasons make it hard to take less than a 1st.  

Earlier I said a 2nd and additional pick.  I don't think he gets a 1st but you could sucker a team into that.  Like has been said, now his performance is lower in a bad year for the team, everyone knows the Eagles cap is bad in the next 2 years and they have Goedert ready to takeover so the Eagles lose leverage.  

[Iggles25]

22 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Earlier I said a 2nd and additional pick.  I don't think he gets a 1st but you could sucker a team into that.  Like has been said, now his performance is lower in a bad year for the team, everyone knows the Eagles cap is bad in the next 2 years and they have Goedert ready to takeover so the Eagles lose leverage.  

Maybe a 2 and a 4.

Think a team like Buffalo or Tennessee chasing KC might be interested.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

9 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Depends on where the 2nd lands me and what other picks come along with it to even consider it .  Four reasons.  A first would be more my speed, but I don't see it.

• He's still highly productive TE in this league that is  highly incorporated in our offense.
• The WRs that we need to move away from 12 personnel aren't developing fast enough to remove his production and adjust the scheme.
• He is still Wentz's most reliable target and has the best relationship with our QB.
• He is one of the team's leaders.

My issue with this is... We shouldn't give a near 30 year old a huge contract when as a team we are nowhere near competing. It is for that reason alone that I us to trade him. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

My issue with this is... We shouldn't give a near 30 year old a huge contract when as a team we are nowhere near competing. It is for that reason alone that I us to trade him. 

He's not going to get that contract, because of his age.  I agree woth that.  He can keep crying around about it.  I am not supportive of a massive contract extension.  

However, until we can get some WR development to get out of 12 personnel, he has some leverage...probably why he started whining in the first place. 

If traded, I'll take a first (or early second). Hopefully, we can use the pick for immediate impact.

[mjkvol]

On 9/29/2020 at 12:28 PM, PaulyB384 said:

Some folks have made comments on how the league has caught up with Howie's cap management skills and have also backed off on dealing with him because he is a shark. And I think that is starting to ring a bit true. It would be offset a little but if he/we knew how to draft because you'd just have manageable/cheaper younger talent.

The league has caught up with him, but more to the point as you alluded to, his mediocre drafting has caught up to him because the bargain signings have leveled off after 2017, and have become a more predictable "you get what you pay for".           As a result, we have very little high end young talent to build around, a core of average to better than average players he locked up,  and a bunch of journeyman veterans.

This is the Reid years all over again, complete with a Reid clone coaching, but with a worse drafter, if that's even possible.            We are looking at a lot of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 type seasons as long as Lurie leaves this setup in lace.

[Madriver]

1 minute ago, mjkvol said:

The league has caught up with him, but more to the point as you alluded to, his mediocre drafting has caught up to him because the bargain signings have leveled off after 2017, and have become a more predictable "you get what you pay for".           As a result, we have very little high end young talent to build around, a core of average to better than average players he locked up,  and a bunch of journeyman veterans.

This is the Reid years all over again, complete with a Reid clone coaching, but with a worse drafter, if that's even possible.            We are looking at a lot of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 type seasons as long as Lurie leaves this setup in lace.

If there's anyone out there who has the pics of Lurie in a dog collar being spanked by Bradley Cooper, it would be Howie.

In all seriousness though, I'm beginning to believe that Lurie will not let Howie go, not because of loyalty, but out of fear. Howie can be, as one poster here put it, "Machiavellian" in his dealings.

[mjkvol]

On 9/29/2020 at 1:07 PM, NOTW said:

The team is going nowhere.  They may claw back and win some meaningless games, hurt their draft position and Lurie and Howie will be fooled they can just make some tweaks and be right back in it, blame injuries again.

The team needs to be blown up.  And start with getting rid of Howie.  We got to enjoy a Super Bowl, now time to rebuild to a team that can sustain longer term success and more than 1 championship.  

Yep, you could just see a decent finish getting this group to .500, and Lurie running it back after consulting those voluminous notes, maybe even coming up with a new catchphrase to replace "emotional intelligence".

I believed that 'rebuilding on the fly' was the way to go in 2018 and even in 2019, but believed a blow up was necessary this past off season.          Problem is, if the changes son't start with Roseman, there's really no point.

[mjkvol]

2 minutes ago, Madriver said:

If there's anyone out there who has the pics of Lurie in a dog collar being spanked by Bradley Cooper, it would be Howie.

In all seriousness though, I'm beginning to believe that Lurie will not let Howie go, not because of loyalty, but out of fear. Howie can be, as one poster here put it, "Machiavellian" in his dealings.

Yeah, it certainly seems sometimes like Roseman has something on Jeffrey, doesn't it?            I believe that Lurie sees him almost as a 'son' and this as the family business.        Roseman 'grew up' here, and is part of the woodwoork.         He has his skills, but those don't include building a football team or especially rebuilding a team.          I have trouble seeing Roseman getting fired, but his removal is the one thing that must happen if this is ever going to be turned around.

[PaulyB384]

15 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

The league has caught up with him, but more to the point as you alluded to, his mediocre drafting has caught up to him because the bargain signings have leveled off after 2017, and have become a more predictable "you get what you pay for".           As a result, we have very little high end young talent to build around, a core of average to better than average players he locked up,  and a bunch of journeyman veterans.

This is the Reid years all over again, complete with a Reid clone coaching, but with a worse drafter, if that's even possible.            We are looking at a lot of 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 type seasons as long as Lurie leaves this setup in lace.

Totally agree with you

[EazyEaglez]

On 9/28/2020 at 10:19 AM, LacesOut said:

If the QB was playing well, they would be 2-1.  Not saying this team is built to win a SB, but they were built to win a Division and be in the playoffs.

The injuries really really hurt too. 

I’m not even sure they would be 2-1, because the defense has been terrible in its own right. 

[thedanone82]

If we don't win 2 of our next 3 I'm all for trading anyone of value that isn't on the offensive line. 

[Talonblood]

Until they find what seems like the holy grail to the front office- personnel that can PROPERLY evaluate and draft talent, nothing will ever change. Keep Howie, get rid of Howie- I don't care....as long as he STAYS OUT OF personnel decisions. Hire true, experienced football people who know what they are doing. If Howie is gone, so be it. If Howie stays- he deals with the cap and contracts only, unless he also wants to be the equipment manager again as well.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, Talonblood said:

If Howie is gone, so be it. If Howie stays- he deals with the cap and contracts only, unless he also wants to be the equipment manager again as well.

But you know he'll worm his way in to making decisions with the roster. He'll worm his way in to making decisions on who to extend, who to let walk and who to restructure. He'll make decisions on which FAs to go after. And all of that limits and impacts on this roster and on this team. That's why I firmly believe he's got to go, until he does we won't see an overhaul. 

[QBhunter58]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:29 PM, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

So you would take a 2nd round pick?  I don't think that's enough.  My point being those 4 reasons make it hard to take less than a 1st.  

A second round pick for Ertz is a steal

[mjkvol]

34 minutes ago, QBhunter58 said:

A second round pick for Ertz is a steal

Completely agree, I'd take a 2nd in a heartbeat.        Try to squeeze an additional pick, but the  2 is about as good as you could hope for.

The idea of drafting Goedert  only made sense if it was followed by getting maximum value for Ertz, and that time was actually last year.          The old Banner 'lock up your core' strategy is only effective while the players are still early in their careers and relatively cheap, and paying an older TE when you have another one you used valuable draft capital on is the height of stupidity.    

Listen, we can go on and on, but the bottom line is crystal clear, and has been for a while - as long as Roseman remains, nothing will change.