12 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

None of that means unions are good, especially public ones

None of that is relevant in modern times

No? The eight-hour day, five-day work week, child labor laws, pensions, health care through your job, unemployment compensation. You think those things just materialized out of thin air?

I am not saying unions are all sweetness and light. Far from it. I am simply commenting on our history, on how we got here. And I would add that public sector unions are not the vile things you apprar to suggest. Police, fire, teachers, sanitation, they have real value.

16 minutes ago, justrelax said:

No? The eight-hour day, five-day work week, child labor laws, pensions, health care through your job, unemployment compensation. You think those things just materialized out of thin air?

I am not saying unions are all sweetness and light. Far from it. I am simply commenting on our history, on how we got here. And I would add that public sector unions are not the vile things you apprar to suggest. Police, fire, teachers, sanitation, they have real value.

5 minutes ago, greend said:

Comin’ along. I’d say about 70% and climbing. Thanks.

35 minutes ago, greend said:

Sorry to tell you guys but "safe at work" isn't something anyone is feeling right now. That said Football is something we can live w/o so bag the season for all I care.

This is true, but offensive/defensive linemen will be facing work environments that are unique compared to most of us.  As will all the players, of course.  Frankly, I'm befuddled by the anger in here about players using social media to present a unified voice.  We are firmly in the era of social media is messaging, gathering support, etc.  This is utterly us right now.

We can live without a lot of things: we don't need 50 different types of cereal, hundreds of cheeses, beer, wine, liquor, pot, new car models every year, Twitter, facebook, the list is long.  These are all things that we think makes life more enjoyable, interesting,  refreshing.   So while we can live without a football season, is giving it up because the players are expressing themselves and what they want the reason to do it?  For some, I guess it is.  I love football and hockey and I hope we get to have a football season and hockey playoffs. I'm not counting on it, but am looking forward to them.  

 

29 minutes ago, justrelax said:

No? The eight-hour day, five-day work week, child labor laws, pensions, health care through your job, unemployment compensation. You think those things just materialized out of thin air?

I am not saying unions are all sweetness and light. Far from it. I am simply commenting on our history, on how we got here. And I would add that public sector unions are not the vile things you apprar to suggest. Police, fire, teachers, sanitation, they have real value.

And most are now law via OSHA etc. so the union no longer serves that purpose. Its false to think it could go back to that.

police and fire i can see because there are actual physical hazards associated with the expected job. But even there we see the hige down side of protecting low performers and not the services they are paid to provide.

teachers need no union and are overpaid in total comp at the expense of taxpayers. It hinders turnover and actual high performance. Plenty of studies on norming that show such environments promote mediocrity and status quo.

 

9 hours ago, WentzFan11 said:

So you’re mad at the athletes to defend the billionaire owners? Not every player is Mahomes, a lot of guys aren’t making a million dollars.

Even a rookie making league minimum for one season makes more than most of us make in 10 years. Zero sympathy.

The only players who are relatively close to us are practice squad players. If they stay on the PS the entire year they make around $130k. 

So just under 400 players out of what, 2000, are somewhere relatable in regards to money. I wonder how many players are making league minimum, I would probably guess maybe 20%, which would be like the last 10 guys on every team (usually the inactives/bubble guys).

1 hour ago, greend said:

So by this I'm guess you don't think any of the "billionaires" work their a** off? 

Not to mention the fact that it's the owners that risk their personal wealth when purchasing and while owning a franchise.  It's also the owners that lose the most when something like this happens.  An owner can go from "billionaire" to zero just as fast (if not faster) than most athletes going from "millionaire" to zero.  Owners don't have "guaranteed salaries", etc. 

That said, it's a two-way street.  Both owners and athletes are dependent on each other for survival and negotiations should reflect that, imo.

 

13 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

And most are now law via OSHA etc. so the union no longer serves that purpose. Its false to think it could go back to that.

police and fire i can see because there are actual physical hazards associated with the expected job. But even there we see the hige down side of protecting low performers and not the services they are paid to provide.

teachers need no union and are overpaid in total comp at the expense of taxpayers. It hinders turnover and actual high performance. Plenty of studies on norming that show such environments promote mediocrity and status quo.

 

Not false at all. It's naïve to think that. We are closer to the days of sweat shops than you think. Look no further than any meat-packing plant. Look to Mitch McConnell's insistence on indemnifying employers from unsafe working conditions with one hand and cutting unemployment and the ACA on the other..

And I am simply stunned that you think teachers are overpaid. I have no response to that.

P.S. The NFLPA is not a union, just to make this football-related.

26 minutes ago, MediterraneanDiet said:

This is true, but offensive/defensive linemen will be facing work environments that are unique compared to most of us.  As will all the players, of course.  Frankly, I'm befuddled by the anger in here about players using social media to present a unified voice.  We are firmly in the era of social media is messaging, gathering support, etc.  This is utterly us right now.

We can live without a lot of things: we don't need 50 different types of cereal, hundreds of cheeses, beer, wine, liquor, pot, new car models every year, Twitter, facebook, the list is long.  These are all things that we think makes life more enjoyable, interesting,  refreshing.   So while we can live without a football season, is giving it up because the players are expressing themselves and what they want the reason to do it?  For some, I guess it is.  I love football and hockey and I hope we get to have a football season and hockey playoffs. I'm not counting on it, but am looking forward to them.  

 

I don't remember hockey or basketball players bishing like this when they were negotiating their season talking about not being able to feed their families and stupid ish like that. I do remember some baseball players doing it

24 minutes ago, MediterraneanDiet said:

This is true, but offensive/defensive linemen will be facing work environments that are unique compared to most of us.  As will all the players, of course.  Frankly, I'm befuddled by the anger in here about players using social media to present a unified voice.  We are firmly in the era of social media is messaging, gathering support, etc.  This is utterly us right now.

We can live without a lot of things: we don't need 50 different types of cereal, hundreds of cheeses, beer, wine, liquor, pot, new car models every year, Twitter, facebook, the list is long.  These are all things that we think makes life more enjoyable, interesting,  refreshing.   So while we can live without a football season, is giving it up because the players are expressing themselves and what they want the reason to do it?  For some, I guess it is.  I love football and hockey and I hope we get to have a football season and hockey playoffs. I'm not counting on it, but am looking forward to them.  

 

If I could I would trade them right now. That said yes, you are right we can live without those other things and some of us have learned to live w/o them during this time and some places will not ever be back. Football is just another thing to add to the list of things that we can live w/o during a crisis. 

30 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Comin’ along. I’d say about 70% and climbing. Thanks.

Keep climbing bro

1 hour ago, greend said:

So by this I'm guess you don't think any of the "billionaires" work their a** off? 

A lot of billionaires get there by working the asses off of other people. You don’t get that much money by being a nice person. 

1 minute ago, WentzFan11 said:

A lot of billionaires get there by working the asses off of other people. You don’t get that much money by being a nice person. 

Or by making money the old-fashioned way - by inheriting it.

1 minute ago, WentzFan11 said:

A lot of billionaires get there by working the asses off of other people. You don’t get that much money by being a nice person. 

Nah, maybe some. Anyone I've ever known that has "money" didn't get it by being stupid or lazy. Do they need labor? Normally yes. Does the labor get paid? Yes

17 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Not false at all. It's naïve to think that. We are closer to the days of sweat shops than you think. Look no further than any meat-packing plant. Look to Mitch McConnell's insistence on indemnifying employers from unsafe working conditions with one hand and cutting unemployment and the ACA on the other..

And I am simply stunned that you think teachers are overpaid. I have no response to that.

P.S. The NFLPA is not a union, just to make this football-related.

Melodramatic nonsense. We have nowhere close to those conditions anymore. The things you point to are luxuries of our modern economy. The function of govt is not to provide a standard of living.

when i say overpaid i am including pensions etc which is just deferred comp.

and football is weird with antitrust exemption but i can actually see a purpose for a union there due to the physical danger of the game. But look what the nflpa did - capped pay of younger  talent so status quo vets can get more...

 

4 minutes ago, justrelax said:

Or by making money the old-fashioned way - by inheriting it.

So petty envy is a foundation of your position? Quite common sadly

who but your family should get property that you acquire by your hard work?

9 minutes ago, WentzFan11 said:

A lot of billionaires get there by working the asses off of other people. You don’t get that much money by being a nice person. 

No you do it by putting significant amounts of your own time and money at risk

6 minutes ago, justrelax said:

No? The eight-hour day, five-day work week, child labor laws, pensions, health care through your job, unemployment compensation. You think those things just materialized out of thin air?

I am not saying unions are all sweetness and light. Far from it. I am simply commenting on our history, on how we got here. And I would add that public sector unions are not the vile things you apprar to suggest. Police, fire, teachers, sanitation, they have real value.

There was a lot of good and bad in unions.  Closed shops that you cannot get into without knowing or being related to someone. Coalmen on railroads after they went to diesel. Frankly, the CBA helps the leagues exist.   What we are seeing play out is primarily a fight over lessened resources. Better than what is happening with the flight attendants.  

Meet my new Grandson

Isaiah Lee greend

2 minutes ago, greend said:

Meet my new Grandson

Isaiah Lee greend

Welcome Isaiah!  Congratulations to you and your family.   How exciting for a of you.  Go Birds!

11 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Melodramatic nonsense. We have nowhere close to those conditions anymore. The things you point to are luxuries of our modern economy. The function of govt is not to provide a standard of living.

when i say overpaid i am including pensions etc which is just deferred comp.

and football is weird with antitrust exemption but i can actually see a purpose for a union there due to the physical danger of the game. But look what the nflpa did - capped pay of younger  talent so status quo vets can get more...

Nonsense? Hardly,.

And pensions are not unique to teachers.'

]

8 minutes ago, greend said:

Meet my new Grandson

Isaiah Lee greend

Congrats!

Didnt say they were

but defined benefit pensions are failing across the board. The labor isnt worth those long term liabilities. Its human nature to want that security but the only viable path is for us each to take individual responsibility for it and understand some will fail at achieving it

7 minutes ago, greend said:

Meet my new Grandson

Isaiah Lee greend

Best sighting I've had all day. He's beautiful.

You, on the other hand... 

J/K. Congratulations.