This is going to be a disaster for baseball. A lot of people think this is going to be great for the game. But here's the thing people don't realize and something MLB has yet to understand... or they do but can't accept it. Baseball doesn't lack popularity and growth of the other sports because it's too long. People consume lengthy things all the time... if they enjoy the product. Joe Rogan's podcast is the #1 podcast in the world and the episodes average over 3 hours in length. TV shows today are going over an hour in length and TV is getting more and more popular. The video game industry has boomed and many uber popular games are over 50 hours in length. The NFL continues to grow and some games go over 3.5 hours.

People and MLB don't understand that baseball isn't growing because it's a sport where everyone stands around for 90% of the time. This is an ADD driven society. People like action. Constant action, constant motion. The nature of the sport of baseball is standing around. That will never change. People like athletes running and jumping and skating and hurdling. Baseball is never going to grow, they can shorten the games to 2 hours if they want, and I guarantee you, the ratings for the sport will never change. And as time goes on and our youths grow up in an age where modern technology conditions their minds to want everything now, and with speed, and their minds become condition for constant dopamine and adrenaline rushes... baseball will continue to lose popularity societally as old heads die off and young people grow up not caring about it.

As someone who doesn't really care a ton about baseball though, I'm rooting for chaos. I hope a playoff game 7 ends on a bases loaded strikeout because a batter didn't get into the box in time. And watch the entire baseball world up in arms over a rule they thought would "change the game for the better" immediately backtrack with outrage lol.

1 hour ago, mattwill said:

There isn’t.  Look at the typical 7th round contract and the typical UDFA contract.  They are virtually identical.  Follow the money.  It is the ultimate measuring stick.

So if there’s no difference between 7th rounders and UDFAs as you believe, again I ask, why even have a 7th round? 
 

And if you eliminate the 7th round, may as well eliminate the sixth at that point too cause it’s the same now as UDFAs.

That absurd premise is the reason why what you’re saying isn’t true. There’s a huge difference between them. 
 

And to close the door on this debate, Poyer was a wasted 7th round pick for us. He didn’t do anything here, and was gone after the first year. That 7th rounder could’ve been used on Bouye or Thielen. It happens, and it’s not a big deal at all because of course you’re going to miss on most 7th rounders. 
 

But it was still a wasted pick, end of the day. 

18 minutes ago, Sack that QB said:

This is going to be a disaster for baseball. A lot of people think this is going to be great for the game. But here's the thing people don't realize and something MLB has yet to understand... or they do but can't accept it. Baseball doesn't lack popularity and growth of the other sports because it's too long. People consume lengthy things all the time... if they enjoy the product. Joe Rogan's podcast is the #1 podcast in the world and the episodes average over 3 hours in length. TV shows today are going over an hour in length and TV is getting more and more popular. The video game industry has boomed and many uber popular games are over 50 hours in length. The NFL continues to grow and some games go over 3.5 hours.

People and MLB don't understand that baseball isn't growing because it's a sport where everyone stands around for 90% of the time. This is an ADD driven society. People like action. Constant action, constant motion. The nature of the sport of baseball is standing around. That will never change. People like athletes running and jumping and skating and hurdling. Baseball is never going to grow, they can shorten the games to 2 hours if they want, and I guarantee you, the ratings for the sport will never change. And as time goes on and our youths grow up in an age where modern technology conditions their minds to want everything now, and with speed, and their minds become condition for constant dopamine and adrenaline rushes... baseball will continue to lose popularity societally as old heads die off and young people grow up not caring about it.

As someone who doesn't really care a ton about baseball though, I'm rooting for chaos. I hope a playoff game 7 ends on a bases loaded strikeout because a batter didn't get into the box in time. And watch the entire baseball world up in arms over a rule they thought would "change the game for the better" immediately backtrack with outrage lol.

Cricket and Rugby are going down a similar path, and I can see the NFL going there.  Cricket found a shorter format and saw revenues rocket; Rugby is adding a shot clock and other rules to remove the standing around as they looked at in play time and realised how slow it had got.

As someone who will happily watch 5 days of test cricket; MLB is boring and slow. I'll channel surf when watching MLB because the chance of missing something is slim and I can go on social media and catch up.

19 minutes ago, UK Eagle said:

Cricket and Rugby are going down a similar path, and I can see the NFL going there.  Cricket found a shorter format and saw revenues rocket; Rugby is adding a shot clock and other rules to remove the standing around as they looked at in play time and realised how slow it had got.

As someone who will happily watch 5 days of test cricket; MLB is boring and slow. I'll channel surf when watching MLB because the chance of missing something is slim and I can go on social media and catch up.

Same with NCAA football.  Their rule change proposals are RIDICULOUS, all because the games last 5 minutes longer than 5 years ago.  5 whole minutes.  The horror.  The last 2 running clock proposals would be terrible for the college game.

1. Outlawing consecutive timeouts. This rule would prevent one timeout from being called right after another, which often happens as teams try to ice kickers.

2. Not extending quarters. This rule could make it so that a first or third quarter would not be extended for an un-timed down if the quarter ends on a defensive penalty. In that case, the down would be clocked in the next quarter.

3. Running clock. According to this rule, the clock will continue to run after an offense gains a first down except inside two minutes in a half.

4. Another running clock rule. This measure, considered the most controversial, will have the clock continue to run after an incomplete pass once the ball has been spotted for play.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the ONLY reason games last so long is because there are countless commercial breaks and TV timeouts.  It's all about money and always will be.  Damn the rules and integrity of the game and give us more money.

5 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Same with NCAA football.  Their rule change proposals are RIDICULOUS, all because the games last 5 minutes longer than 5 years ago.  5 whole minutes.  The horror.  The last 2 running clock proposals would be terrible for the college game.

1. Outlawing consecutive timeouts. This rule would prevent one timeout from being called right after another, which often happens as teams try to ice kickers.

2. Not extending quarters. This rule could make it so that a first or third quarter would not be extended for an un-timed down if the quarter ends on a defensive penalty. In that case, the down would be clocked in the next quarter.

3. Running clock. According to this rule, the clock will continue to run after an offense gains a first down except inside two minutes in a half.

4. Another running clock rule. This measure, considered the most controversial, will have the clock continue to run after an incomplete pass once the ball has been spotted for play.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the ONLY reason games last so long is because there are countless commercial breaks and TV timeouts.  It's all about money and always will be.  Damn the rules and integrity of the game and give us more money.

Nah. Clock stoppages for first downs are ridiculous. Should have been changed years if not decades longer. The games are way too long. There’s no reason for a first down in bounds with 13 minutes left in the game to stop the clock. 

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

Nah. Clock stoppages for first downs are ridiculous. Should have been changed years if not decades longer. The games are way too long. 

I can honestly say, I've never watched a football game at any level and said, this is too long.  I've said wow this first half is moving fast but never the game feels too long.  IMO, the last 2 minutes of a basketball game feel longer than any other sporting event out there.

Average NFL games, 3 hours 12 minutes.  Haltime is 13 minutes.

Average NCAA game, 3 hours 21 minutes.  Halftime is 20 minutes.

So right there, the additional length of the college halftime, which is needed for the traditional marching bands and such adds 7 minutes to the game.  If they had the same length of halftime, the NCAA game is only 2 minutes longer. 

Average NBA game, 2 hours 12 minutes

Average MLB game, 3 hours 12 minutes

Average NHL game, 2 hours 23 minutes

I mean we are talking minutes here.  

 

1 hour ago, Sack that QB said:

This is going to be a disaster for baseball. A lot of people think this is going to be great for the game. But here's the thing people don't realize and something MLB has yet to understand... or they do but can't accept it. Baseball doesn't lack popularity and growth of the other sports because it's too long. People consume lengthy things all the time... if they enjoy the product. Joe Rogan's podcast is the #1 podcast in the world and the episodes average over 3 hours in length. TV shows today are going over an hour in length and TV is getting more and more popular. The video game industry has boomed and many uber popular games are over 50 hours in length. The NFL continues to grow and some games go over 3.5 hours.

People and MLB don't understand that baseball isn't growing because it's a sport where everyone stands around for 90% of the time. This is an ADD driven society. People like action. Constant action, constant motion. The nature of the sport of baseball is standing around. That will never change. People like athletes running and jumping and skating and hurdling. Baseball is never going to grow, they can shorten the games to 2 hours if they want, and I guarantee you, the ratings for the sport will never change. And as time goes on and our youths grow up in an age where modern technology conditions their minds to want everything now, and with speed, and their minds become condition for constant dopamine and adrenaline rushes... baseball will continue to lose popularity societally as old heads die off and young people grow up not caring about it.

As someone who doesn't really care a ton about baseball though, I'm rooting for chaos. I hope a playoff game 7 ends on a bases loaded strikeout because a batter didn't get into the box in time. And watch the entire baseball world up in arms over a rule they thought would "change the game for the better" immediately backtrack with outrage lol.

I didn’t quit watching baseball because it "took too long”, I quit watching because of analytics paralysis.  It’s home run or strikeouts now; the hit-and-run, stolen base, moving runners along and other strategic components of the game have almost disappeared.  
 

Same with basketball.  A bunch of chuckers launching 3-balls instead of the emphasis on defense, rebounding, and speed.

When sports become boring and the strategy disappears, people tune out.

Also, in the grand scheme of things, the amount of time it takes the home plate ump to make the call, then have the player argue/complain, and the whole sequence to end is going to be just as long as a player taking his time to get to the plate.

Lol

1 hour ago, Sack that QB said:

This is going to be a disaster for baseball. A lot of people think this is going to be great for the game. But here's the thing people don't realize and something MLB has yet to understand... or they do but can't accept it. Baseball doesn't lack popularity and growth of the other sports because it's too long. People consume lengthy things all the time... if they enjoy the product. Joe Rogan's podcast is the #1 podcast in the world and the episodes average over 3 hours in length. TV shows today are going over an hour in length and TV is getting more and more popular. The video game industry has boomed and many uber popular games are over 50 hours in length. The NFL continues to grow and some games go over 3.5 hours.

People and MLB don't understand that baseball isn't growing because it's a sport where everyone stands around for 90% of the time. This is an ADD driven society. People like action. Constant action, constant motion. The nature of the sport of baseball is standing around. That will never change. People like athletes running and jumping and skating and hurdling. Baseball is never going to grow, they can shorten the games to 2 hours if they want, and I guarantee you, the ratings for the sport will never change. And as time goes on and our youths grow up in an age where modern technology conditions their minds to want everything now, and with speed, and their minds become condition for constant dopamine and adrenaline rushes... baseball will continue to lose popularity societally as old heads die off and young people grow up not caring about it.

As someone who doesn't really care a ton about baseball though, I'm rooting for chaos. I hope a playoff game 7 ends on a bases loaded strikeout because a batter didn't get into the box in time. And watch the entire baseball world up in arms over a rule they thought would "change the game for the better" immediately backtrack with outrage lol.

It's a needed change. 

19 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

I can honestly say, I've never watched a football game at any level and said, this is too long.  I've said wow this first half is moving fast but never the game feels too long.  IMO, the last 2 minutes of a basketball game feel longer than any other sporting event out there.

Average NFL games, 3 hours 12 minutes.  Haltime is 13 minutes.

Average NCAA game, 3 hours 21 minutes.  Halftime is 20 minutes.

So right there, the additional length of the college halftime, which is needed for the traditional marching bands and such adds 7 minutes to the game.  If they had the same length of halftime, the NCAA game is only 2 minutes longer. 

Average NBA game, 2 hours 12 minutes

Average MLB game, 3 hours 12 minutes

Average NHL game, 2 hours 23 minutes

I mean we are talking minutes here.  

 

3:21 as the average for college football seems low. I’d be curious what it is for a power 5 game. 

20 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

I can honestly say, I've never watched a football game at any level and said, this is too long.  I've said wow this first half is moving fast but never the game feels too long.  IMO, the last 2 minutes of a basketball game feel longer than any other sporting event out there.

Average NFL games, 3 hours 12 minutes.  Haltime is 13 minutes.

Average NCAA game, 3 hours 21 minutes.  Halftime is 20 minutes.

So right there, the additional length of the college halftime, which is needed for the traditional marching bands and such adds 7 minutes to the game.  If they had the same length of halftime, the NCAA game is only 2 minutes longer. 

Average NBA game, 2 hours 12 minutes

Average MLB game, 3 hours 12 minutes

Average NHL game, 2 hours 23 minutes

I mean we are talking minutes here.  

 

Difference is there aren't as many breaks in addition to being long. Things needed to be sped up and the shift needed to go.

I really have no interest in baseball until the postseason. And to me the tension of the postseason is what makes it good, speeding it up will actually make it a less interesting product. The regular season though is a slog. The offseason is 3 months, it's ridiculous. The World Series just ended and they're already playing spring training games. The Eagles games don't start until August.

Baseball is the only sport that starts and ends in the same general temperature. It starts in the cold and ends in the cold. That's how Fing long those damn seasons are. April(sometimes late March) until Fing November. And then start up again in February. So if you count spring training, baseball is like 9 months long lol.

I have no idea how die hard baseball fans are able to spend time on any other hobbies when you're watching your team play 6.5 days per week for more than half a calendar year.

Football needs to come back soon. Jesus Christ it’s only been just under two weeks and there’s only so many games I can rewatch. Also, nfl game pass international have removed last season red zone archive so I can’t even listen to Scott Hanson.

Combine next week at least

2 hours ago, mattwill said:

The Eagles can’t have a UDFA without there being a signed contract in place.  That applies to Traing Camp as well as the Preseason.  So, for example Blankenship had a signed contract, and all the Eagles’ UDFAs who did not make the 53-man roster also had signed contracts.  A team’s Draftees, regardless of the round they are chosen in, are not given a contract, they are offered a contract.  That contract is neither valid nor enforceable until it is mutually accepted and signed by both parties.  A team’s UDFAs actually have a valid enforceable contract that has already been accepted and signed by both parties.

By definition a UDFA is a un-drafted free agent, as in a player that is eligible to be signed by and NFL team that was not selected during the draft. They are essentially a rookie free agent at that point and there is a pool of players to teams have to compete with to get the UDFA to sign. Reed Blankenships total contract value for 3 years is $2,565,000 while the Eagles 7th round draft choice from last year, Patrick Johnson, is worth a total of $3,585,872. Any player that is drafted is guaranteed to be presented a contract. I would love to see an example of a player drafted in the NFL in the last 25 years that was not given a contract to sign. A UDFA is also presented a contract, that contract, as you state, is neither valid nro enforceable uintil it is mutually accepted and signed by both parties. If you want to get into semantics, a UDFA is not guaranteed to be presented a contract while a draft pick is 99.999% going to be presented one.

Quote

I suspect (but do not know) that the average signing bonus of UDFAs who make the 53-man roster are very close to the average signing bonuses of 7the Round picks who make the roster. UDFA contracts are effectively 4 years as well because they do not become a UFA until after the 4th year.  They are only RFAs at the end of year 3.  If you look at the total number of UDFAs on NFL rosters it fare exceeds the number of 7th round picks on NFL rosters.  So your statement is probably true at the beginning of Training Camp, but false in the last week of Training Camp.

The signing bonus is already determined for 7th round draft picks and ranges anywhere from $83,000 - $126,000. I'll go back to the Carson Strong example since he is on the higher side for UDFA signings, he received a signing bonus of $20,000 but had $320,000 guaranteed at signing. Patrick Johnson had a signing bonus of $106,000 and that is also his total guaranteed at signing. Yes, you will have outlier UDFAs that surpass the total guarantees of a 7th round pick, but those are rare and in this case Carson Strong never made it to anyone's 53 man roster this season.

There are far more UDFAs than there are 7th round draft choices. There are anywhere from 32-42 7th round picks. Each NFL team is signing 10+ UDFAs, so rough math of 10 * 32 is 320+ UDFAs. So statistically speaking there better be more UDFAs on NFL rosters than 7th round picks.

 

Quote

Where are you getting $300,000?  Go to Spotrac or OTC and look up the base salary of Blankenship or Jobe or any of the other UDFAs on the roster.  The CBA does not differentiate the annual base salary by draftee vs. non-draftee.  Further, the 2022 base salary of 3rd round pick Nakobe Dean and UDFA Josh Jobe are the same identical amount … $705,000.

Base salary for 2022.

 

Yes, there will be occasional outliers but Jobes signing bonus is $10k and his total guaranteed is $135k. Nkobe Dean received a $965k signing bonus and is fully guaranteed.

Quote

Agreed.  However, the provenance of this discussion had to do with the selection of players in the 7th round, and whether a 7th round pick can be "wasted.”  The presence of Blankenship and Jobe or any other UDFA on the Eagles roster mitigates the chances that a 7th round pick can be "wasted.”  If there were no UDFAs TorontoEagle’s statement would be correct, but UDFAs are effectively an insurance policy that mitigates any risk of "wastage.”

@TorontoEagle said Poyer was a wasted pick for the Eagles since he did not contribute to this team at all. I would agree that the Eagles wasted a pick on him, its a gamble the Eagles took and it did not pay off for them. The Browns and Bills benefited from the Eagles cutting him, but the Eagles are the team that used draft capital on him and it didn't work out for them. I don't want to speak for him, but I would imagine Toronto Eagle believes Poyer has been a good player for the browns and bills, just not for the Eagles.

50 minutes ago, EaglesIreland said:

Football needs to come back soon. Jesus Christ it’s only been just under two weeks and there’s only so many games I can rewatch. Also, nfl game pass international have removed last season red zone archive so I can’t even listen to Scott Hanson.

Try to enjoy the combine, then free agency then the draft. It's a glorious 2 month period, I love it. 

I love how the "was Jordan Poyer a successful Howie draft pick” debate occurs at least once every 3-4 months 

2 hours ago, TorontoEagle said:

So if there’s no difference between 7th rounders and UDFAs as you believe, again I ask, why even have a 7th round? 

@ToastJenkins answered that question … for parity.  I added "for order.”

2 hours ago, TorontoEagle said:

It’s not a big deal at all because of course you’re going to miss on most 7th rounders. 

But it was still a wasted pick, end of the day. 

In order for something to be "wasted” it has to have had value.  7th round picks are like free throws at the dice table.  They start out having no value, but rather potential.  When you throw the dice and miss, have you wasted anything.  Your aggregate value is the same after the free throw as it was before the free throw. 

12 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

I love how the "was Jordan Poyer a successful Howie draft pick” debate occurs at least once every 3-4 months 

That was a chip Kelly draft too 

11 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

I love how the "was Jordan Poyer a successful Howie draft pick” debate occurs at least once every 3-4 months 

What is even more lovely is that the premise of this prolonged discussion did not have the word "Howie” in it.  The article that was originally cited and linked dealt with first contracts versus second contracts, with the authors’ premise being that if the value of the second contract exceeded the value of the first contract by a certain predetermined ratio, then the player was a "success.”   By that standard, Poyer was a success, and tallying up all the 7th round picks for his year to calculate a league-wide success vs. failure ratio, he adds one to the success column.

51 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

By definition a UDFA is a un-drafted free agent, as in a player that is eligible to be signed by and NFL team that was not selected during the draft..

You are failing to distinguish between an unsigned UDFA with a signed UDFA. The only way a player can be an Eagles UDFA is if they have signed a contract with the team.  Their status changes when they sign on the bottom-line.  I agree with everything you have said as it applies to an unsigned UDFA still looking to hook on with a team. 
 

To get a sense of the relative value of UDFAs vs. 7th Round draftees, I suggest everyone read the Football Outsiders article https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2022/value-undrafted-free-agents. Here are two of the quotes from that article

"Undrafted players comprise roughly one-fifth of NFL rosters and provide the NFL with more value and snaps than the sixth- and seventh-rounds combined according to Thor Nystrom of NBC Sports Edge.”  

and 

"Offensive tackle A.J. Arcuri was the 261st player drafted in 2022 (by the Rams). He was taken immediately before Purdy. Like Purdy, he will have $77,012 guaranteed money on his contract. I found eight offensive tackles with a greater amount of guaranteed money who went undrafted in 2022 (table 2).

Table 2. Highest-Paid 2022 UDFA OTs
Offensive Tackle	College	Team	Guaranteed
Haggai Chisom Ndubuisi	no college	ARI	$207,000
Ryan Van Demark	Connecticut	IND	$175,000
Obinna Eze	TCU	DET	$170,000
Ben Petrula	Boston College	CLE	$150,000
Jarrid Williams	Miami	PHI	$145,000
Kellen Diesch	Arizona State	MIA	$140,000
Jalen McKenzie	USC	TEN	$100,000
Tyrese Robinson	Oklahoma	WAS	$100,000

The takeaway is that, at least from a financial perspective, it can be better to be undrafted than to be drafted in the end of the seventh round.”

1 hour ago, EaglesIreland said:

Football needs to come back soon. Jesus Christ it’s only been just under two weeks and there’s only so many games I can rewatch. Also, nfl game pass international have removed last season red zone archive so I can’t even listen to Scott Hanson.

Look into the xfl. No, it’s not the same level as the NFL, but the different rules make it pretty interesting and I would love for a football minor league to take off. There’s a handful of recognizable ex-nfl players in the league. Usfl starts up in April too, so you basically can have football all off-season until training camp starts.

If these leagues can sustain for a few years, I think the product would get much better since the players would be in the same similar systems.

40 minutes ago, wussbasket said:

@TorontoEagle said Poyer was a wasted pick for the Eagles since he did not contribute to this team at all. I would agree that the Eagles wasted a pick on him, it’s a gamble the Eagles took and it did not pay off for them. The Browns and Bills benefited from the Eagles cutting him, but the Eagles are the team that used draft capital on him and it didn't work out for them. I don't want to speak for him, but I would imagine Toronto Eagle believes Poyer has been a good player for the browns and bills, just not for the Eagles.

Toronto’s statement took the NFL-wide premise of the article and made it Eagles-specific.  Poyer can not be counted as a selected player that was a failure.  By being a good player for the Browns and Bills he played out his first contract and signed a second contract for more money.  That makes him an example of a successful NFL pick.  The graph provided by the article segregates successful players that sign with the same team from successful players that sign with a different team.  I suspect, but do not know, that TorontoEagle would also call any Eagles draft pick who signs a second contract with a different team, a "wasted” pick. His default perspective is Eagles-only, which makes reading an article like the one I linked difficult for him.  That is how he rolls.