Celtics 🤣

Should call them the Boston Masons...

 

Because they've been putting up bricks all night.

Boston put the annoying try hards in. This one is ovaaaa

2 hours ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Boston put the annoying try hards in. This one is ovaaaa

I am happy Boston lost. Cause I Fing hate the Celtics. But that game they lost it as soon as Jayson Tatum hurt his ankle. Once that happened he didn’t really look for his shot. He was loafing around out there and just standing on offense. When he did get the ball very few times did he drive and most of the time he’d take 3-4 dribbles then look to pass it off.

 with Malcolm Brogdon already being useless on offense with his injury, they were down two of their better offensive players, and really you don’t have enough to make up for that. They would’ve needed white, brown and smart to all have huge games where two were in the 30s and one in the 20s. That wasn’t gonna happen especially when Miami really didn’t respect Tatum after the injury to be a scoring factor. 

9 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Tbh i don’t have an issue with driscoll’s play. Idk if I’d say he’s better than vaitai. Vaitai came up big for us when guys went down. The issue with Driscoll is that he’s unreliable to stay healthy if asked to play significant snaps 

Driscoll is too much of a liabilty at tackle to be the 6th Oline.  And like you said, injury waiting to happen.  I think a backup swing tackle will be signed before or during TC.  The loser of the Jergens/Steen RG will be in competition for dressing game day with Driscoll.  I hope Driscoll doesn't dress much.

9 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

Tbh i don’t have an issue with driscoll’s play. Idk if I’d say he’s better than vaitai. Vaitai came up big for us when guys went down. The issue with Driscoll is that he’s unreliable to stay healthy if asked to play significant snaps 

I didn't say that I had an issue with Driscoll's play, I asked for a case to be built by someone 'willing to die on a hill' defending Driscoll as being better than Vaitai.  Assertions like that are interesting to me.  And when someone goes so far as to say that they are willing to die on the hill, I expected that they had actually thought deeply on the topic and had an actual case to defend such a claim.   I am saddened to find out that the statement is completely vacuous in the mind in the one who made it.   It would have made for an interesting discussion, if @jsb235 actually had anything to offer on the topic.

 

10 hours ago, jsb235 said:

Just putting it on the record. 

You put nothing on the record.  You claimed to be willing to die on a hill, indicating an interest in defending the position, but when pressed to actually offer any reason as to why you believe that to be the case, you fell silent.  

 

Have the opinion, but defend it when asked for why you believe that, especially while declaring that you'd be willing to die on that hill.

On the Driscoll versus Vaitai debate... Vaitai played at a respectable level at LT for a Super Bowl run.  Vaitai played both sides of the OL as both LT and RT in spot duty and did very well.  Thrown in at RT as a rookie, he did well.  Thrown in at LT during a Super Bowl run, he did well.  He was then cross trained at OG also, and when he came in, he did well... well enough in fact to warrant a decently sized FA contract from the Lions to be an OG, rather than an OT.  

 

That's a pretty high bar for Driscoll to match as a backup OL.  I don't believe Driscoll is close to that yet.  Driscoll has only seen spot duty on the right side of the OL, as far as I know.  We've never seen him at LT, and I can't recall him getting any snaps at LG either.  To truly be the '6th OL', you need more versatility than that.  We haven't seen that he has that yet.  It doesn't mean that he doesn't, but the evidence before us is lacking in that regard.  It would be interesting to hear (read) why Driscoll would be of higher estimation than Vaitai in the eyes of some, other than the fact that he's on the roster now and Vaitai isn't.  That's pretty hollow, and without any case being made outside of that, that is the only conclusion I can draw as to why someone would believe that.

43 minutes ago, Freshmilk said:

Driscoll is too much of a liabilty at tackle to be the 6th Oline.  And like you said, injury waiting to happen.  I think a backup swing tackle will be signed before or during TC.  The loser of the Jergens/Steen RG will be in competition for dressing game day with Driscoll.  I hope Driscoll doesn't dress much.

Jurgens is pretty much guaranteed to be dressed on gameday, even if he loses the RG battle.  He's the primary OC backup.  And would easily the best option at OC if Kelce were to come out of a game.  

Full Howie interview

 

 

16 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

On the Driscoll versus Vaitai debate... Vaitai played at a respectable level at LT for a Super Bowl run.  Vaitai played both sides of the OL as both LT and RT in spot duty and did very well.  Thrown in at RT as a rookie, he did well.  Thrown in at LT during a Super Bowl run, he did well.  He was then cross trained at OG also, and when he came in, he did well... well enough in fact to warrant a decently sized FA contract from the Lions to be an OG, rather than an OT.  

 

That's a pretty high bar for Driscoll to match as a backup OL.  I don't believe Driscoll is close to that yet.  Driscoll has only seen spot duty on the right side of the OL, as far as I know.  We've never seen him at LT, and I can't recall him getting any snaps at LG either.  To truly be the '6th OL', you need more versatility than that.  We haven't seen that he has that yet.  It doesn't mean that he doesn't, but the evidence before us is lacking in that regard.  It would be interesting to hear (read) why Driscoll would be of higher estimation than Vaitai in the eyes of some, other than the fact that he's on the roster now and Vaitai isn't.  That's pretty hollow, and without any case being made outside of that, that is the only conclusion I can draw as to why someone would believe that.

Actually, you have seen snaps by Driscoll at LT.  They were few but not memorable because he did okay.  Technique wise, I think Driscoll is a better T.  Not taking away from Vaitai in 2017 but he had a lot of help from Celek and the LG.  Now as a G, Driscoll physically lacks the anchor wanted.  Vaitai was better at G based on the last time we saw Driscoll there.  Both are good swing OL substitutes. Vaitai’s back injury had him out all last year and he’s on a $3 million prove it contract.  He failed to live up to his second contract, not just from injury but also from play.  Therein lies the mystery of Stout’s OLs. I think there are some really good OL playing here but the choreography that Stout’s line plays have and how he gets the OL, including reserves when they have needed to fill in, is what makes the OL better than the individual pieces.  Now Kelce’s a part of that and I worry how much Seumalo’s input will be missed. The player who wins RG has to fill that coordination too.  

41 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Full Howie interview

 

 

I’ve got to watch the Dom interview now.

1 hour ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

Full Howie interview

 

 

I already suspected that Nolan will be on the field more than just a pass rusher and now I think it even more. Which is a good thing, the dude has the skillset to be great off the ball and it's one of the weaknesses on defense. 

22 minutes ago, BigEFly said:

I’ve got to watch the Dom interview now.

Is there one? I didn't see it. I just started to watch the Kelce one, he said he was close to retiring. Think that was pretty obvious, but to hear it come from him in this type of setting nearly brought a tear to my eye. I would think this is absolutely his last year. 

Anyone have any good Celtics memes after last night?  I live in Vermont so I got about 50 Sixers ones after they beat us so any ammunition you can give would be greatly appreciated.

17 minutes ago, garingovt2000 said:

Anyone have any good Celtics memes after last night?  I live in Vermont so I got about 50 Sixers ones after they beat us so any ammunition you can give would be greatly appreciated.

 

9 minutes ago, Cliftoma said:

^^^ This is the only one I had prior to my post

I put these together but neither are great

 

2 hours ago, BigEFly said:

Actually, you have seen snaps by Driscoll at LT.  They were few but not memorable because he did okay.  Technique wise, I think Driscoll is a better T.  Not taking away from Vaitai in 2017 but he had a lot of help from Celek and the LG.  Now as a G, Driscoll physically lacks the anchor wanted.  Vaitai was better at G based on the last time we saw Driscoll there.  Both are good swing OL substitutes. Vaitai’s back injury had him out all last year and he’s on a $3 million prove it contract.  He failed to live up to his second contract, not just from injury but also from play.  Therein lies the mystery of Stout’s OLs. I think there are some really good OL playing here but the choreography that Stout’s line plays have and how he gets the OL, including reserves when they have needed to fill in, is what makes the OL better than the individual pieces.  Now Kelce’s a part of that and I worry how much Seumalo’s input will be missed. The player who wins RG has to fill that coordination too.  

This is exactly why I was intrigued by the statement that was made.  It's a fun conversation to have... if someone actually has things to say about Driscoll vs. Vaitai.   And it is why I was so disappointed with the lack of any substance from jsb when I asked him to build his case.  

 

I am interested in which games Driscoll got snaps at LT.  Were these in games where the outcome was in hand and he was just finishing the game, or were they meaningful snaps with the game still in doubt?  I don't recall it and would be curious to go back and check them out.   His arms concern me greatly at OT... especially at LT.   He's much more of a guard in build that way, but not nearly as powerful, as you say.  BUT... that's why I've always seen him as much more of a center prospect.  He has great athleticism for that position and I think he's got smarts enough to handle it.  Of course, the drafting of Jurgens pretty much scuttled that idea though.

WIP caller Chuck calling into 75 right now under a different name without the gimmick yelling.  Always interesting when these regular sports talk callers call the other radio station.

3 hours ago, Iggles_Phan said:

well enough in fact to warrant a decently sized FA contract from the Lions to be an OG, rather than an OT.  

The Detroit Free Press disagrees with your assessment.

Detroit Lions' Halapoulivaati Vaitai ticketed for OG role in 2021 (freep.com)

That's a pretty high bar for Driscoll to match as a backup OL.  I don't believe Driscoll is close to that yet.

 When Lane was suspended, it pretty much wrecked our 2016 season. In 2017, Vaitai committed six penalties and allowed nine sacks. That's setting the bar high?

Yes, Vaitai has done okay as a guard, but even the Lions realized pretty quickly he couldn't be a starting tackle in the NFL, and was a pretty mediocre option at that spot as a backup. 

 

1 hour ago, garingovt2000 said:

Anyone have any good Celtics memes after last night?  I live in Vermont so I got about 50 Sixers ones after they beat us so any ammunition you can give would be greatly appreciated.

 

Vaitai versus Driscoll in their first three years in the league.

Vaitai 1600 snaps, 16 sacks, 9 penalties

Driscoll 1200 snaps, 7 sacks, 6 penalties

Not sure there is much of a discussion to be had here. Sure, penalties and sacks don't tell the whole story, but if Vaitai is a viable NFL backup, not sure how anyone can make the argument that Driscoll isn't.  

40 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

 

Like I said... he got a sizable contract, based on what he did here.  5 years, $50 M is a nice chunk of change.    I'll add that what Vaitai went on to do elsewhere is completely irrelevant to the conversation, which is what he did while he was here.  

 

I looked at the Eagles' record with and without Johnson recently to find that there's far more myth to that notion than actual facts.  In context, the Eagles record with Johnson versus without him isn't actually that amazingly different when ALL factors are considered.

But, let's discuss 2016 a little more in depth.  The Eagles came out in 2016 with a brand new HC, a rookie QB that played only a few snaps in the preseason with the 3s, and had some really easy opponents to start the year... and got off to a 3-0 start.   Game 1 - Browns (1-15), Game 2 - Bears (3-13), Game 3 - Steelers (11-5).  Eagles got to take advantage of the Steelers, who were coming off a division game (Bengals, the division champs the year before) and traveling to face an out of conference team before they were coming back home to face the Chiefs (a playoff opponent from the previous year).  Classic trap game for the Steelers.   During these games, the league started to get a bit of a handle on Pederson as a play caller, their offensive game plans and Wentz as a QB.  They dropped a close game in Game 4 to the 8-8 Lions.  Then Lane was suspended for 10 games.  So, they went 3-1 with Lane, with the 3 wins against 2 powderpuff squads and a team in a let down situation. 

The games to follow were against much better opponents Redskins (8-7-1), Vikings (8-8), Cowboys (13-3), Giants (11-5), Falcons (11-5), Seahawks (10-5-1).  Eagles were 2-4 in those 6 games with Vaitai at RT.  Not a bad showing considering the massive jump in the quality of opposition they faced, and the fact that they weren't going to sneak up on anyone anymore.   Then they lost the next 4 (without Vaitai) to Packers (10-6), Bengals (6-9-1), Redskins (8-7-1), Ravens (8-8).  Then they righted the ship and won the last two games when Lane returned... one game against the Giants... and the last one against the Cowboys.  Of course, the Cowboys had nothing to play for in that game and didn't play their starters as they were 13-2 going into the game and already had the top seed locked up, so that game is completely meaningless to any discussion and would have been a travesty had they lost it.

 

Vaitai's stats for 'sacks surrendered' is an interesting one, but again, without context.  Wentz was a known ball holder.  He got away with it a lot in 2017 and took sacks he shouldn't have, but also made ridiculous plays that he shouldn't have as well.  How many of the sacks were due to Wentz holding the ball too long, versus Vaitai just getting beat?  I don't know.  

 

I will circle back to @BigEFly's comments about Stoutland's impact.  Stoutland is a master at maximizing the players he has available to play at OL.  He obviously was able to get more with less with Vaitai than the Lions, who have a very long history of getting less with more going back generations.  They are just a dysfunctional organization.  A player going there and underperforming is the norm, not the exception.  So, once again, anything that happened with Vaitai after he left here is irrelevant.  Vaitai, while here, put his market value up to the point that another team in the league saw value in him as a starter and paid him accordingly. 

The final piece of your post is also irrelevant to this discussion.  I never claimed that Vaitai should be a starting OT in the NFL.  We aren't discussing starters... we are discussing backups.  Driscoll seems to have proven he can be neither a starting OG nor starting OT in the NFL.  We'll see what happens with him when his rookie deal expires and see if any team wants to give him anywhere near $10M/year at any position.  Right now, I'd say that's a long shot.  I hope he does though.  It would be great for this team if he did.

10 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

Vaitai versus Driscoll in their first three years in the league.

Vaitai 1600 snaps, 16 sacks, 9 penalties

Driscoll 1200 snaps, 7 sacks, 6 penalties

Not sure there is much of a discussion to be had here. Sure, penalties and sacks don't tell the whole story, but if Vaitai is a viable NFL backup, not sure how anyone can make the argument that Driscoll isn't.  

1 - Stats without context is a weak argument for anything.

2 - No one said that Driscoll wasn't a viable backup.  It is merely ranking who is the better backup.  I put Vaitai over Driscoll.  That doesn't make Driscoll a bad backup. 

You claimed that Driscoll was clearly a better backup than Vaitai and you stated that you were willing to 'die on that hill'.  I asked you to actually defend the position.   Now you are engaging in an actual discussion on the topic rather than planting a flag and then disengaging.