Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[UK_EaglesFan89]

27 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

There is a reasonable core here on offense.

Is there?

There remain question marks over the LT. We need a young C to replace Kelce and we need a young swing tackle. Not to mention Brooks will be coming back from back to back achilles injuries. 

We don't get know what we have in Reagor. We think we have a stud in Fulgham but we don't yet know for sure and Ward is a solid NFL starter. 

We also need a good TE #2 to go along with Goedert. Oh and a RB #2 who really we could do with being a good RB #1b.

And then there are question marks over the QB. He's not going anywhere anytime soon but the question marks are there. 

[NOTW]

43 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I like it.  It's so much more realistic than to shred the whole organization from the Owner down.  

Who's going to fix the talent problem in the defensive back 7? The training and conditioning issues they've had for FOUR years? We keep relying on guys returning from injury and putting hope the injuries will reduce...they drop like flies. They rely on 3rd string and practice squad guys at some positions. 

Who's going to improve scouting and drafting? The offensive coach structure? The reports that Doug can't hire his own coaches? 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 minute ago, NOTW said:

Who's going to fix the talent problem in the defensive back 7? The training and conditioning issues they've had for FOUR years? We keep relying on guys returning from injury and putting hope the injuries will reduce...they drop like flies. They rely on 3rd string and practice squad guys at some positions. 

Who's going to improve scouting and drafting? The offensive coach structure? The reports that Doug can't hire his own coaches? 

Some fans just want to keep the positivity no matter what. Apparently as a fan we aren't allowed to be negative or to see the issues with our team. We need to put the blinkers on and be happy with Howie. Be happy with his drafts and how he's built this roster. 

[ManchesterEagle]

18 hours ago, NOTW said:

Wait how many draft picks do they have?  You're saying to put focus on defense, but also draft O line, 2 RBs, TE that's 4 offensive draft picks alone for depth.

Also, no draft has 100% success.  Some guys don't work out, they bust or just get cut and go somewhere else.  In 2017 it was the supposed draft to address corner and RB for the foreseeable future in a deep class at those positions.  They busted on the 2 deepest positions and everyone from that draft has been cut except Barnett.  Gerry should be cut after this year he sucks.  

So you can never think that putting a list of positions on paper in just one draft will solve everything.  You have to assume at least a few picks won't work out.  There's also free agency to supplement but...they are in cap hell after this season so they really can't sign anyone.  

Yeah I'm just throwing out ideas, but my ideal would be an early focus on the D - say 2 of our first 3 picks. Ideally if we got a second for Ertz (looking increasingly unlikely now I know), then I'd like to use 2 of our first 3 picks on the D.

Yeah I do appreciate it's not as simple as drafting a player and slotting him in. As you say we can't be overly aggressive in free agency. Ideally we need at least one of Taylor or Wallace to emerge next year as legitimate starters. That makes things easier.

[ManchesterEagle]

17 hours ago, NOTW said:

Who's going to fix the talent problem in the defensive back 7? The training and conditioning issues they've had for FOUR years? We keep relying on guys returning from injury and putting hope the injuries will reduce...they drop like flies. They rely on 3rd string and practice squad guys at some positions. 

Who's going to improve scouting and drafting? The offensive coach structure? The reports that Doug can't hire his own coaches? 

 

17 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Some fans just want to keep the positivity no matter what. Apparently as a fan we aren't allowed to be negative or to see the issues with our team. We need to put the blinkers on and be happy with Howie. Be happy with his drafts and how he's built this roster. 

You are both very well reasoned and usually balanced posters, but on the flip side there are those who cannot see that Howie has done any good at all and don't recognise that a lot of teams miss badly on draft picks. Howie's 2017 draft was awful. His 2018 draft was very good. 

It may well be time to move on. I'm still annoyed about the Hurts pick when there was so much needed defensive talent available. Fulton in particular made all the sense in the world. As I've said consistently they have ignored the D early in drafts for too long now and it's starting to catch-up with them.

I'm not against moving on from Howie. As for the injuries. I just don't know. They keep changing programmes, but the injury luck is horrendous. Obviously players like Jackson/Peters are understandable ones given age etc. But the bad luck is extreme.

[eagle45]

25 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

 

I'm not against moving on from Howie. As for the injuries. I just don't know. They keep changing programmes, but the injury luck is horrendous. Obviously players like Jackson/Peters are understandable ones given age etc. But the bad luck is extreme.

I don't agree that the bad luck is extreme.  They mishandled Lane.  He's not out because of bad luck.  Unnecessarily giving a huge contract extension to Brooks after recovering from 1 achilles wasn't bad luck; it was bad foresight.

Now, we are contractually over-extended to a right side of the OL that will feature backups more often than not in 2021 and beyond.  That's on Howie.

OL injuries will only get worse in 2021 with the current group.

And just about all of the other tough luck injuries are returning after the bye.  So Howie will have to face the music with his roster.

[ManchesterEagle]

19 hours ago, NOTW said:

I agree with your overall assessment that the offense has many components.  I'll come back to that.  But I think in terms of rebuilding the ORGANIZATION not just the roster.  Scouting, drafting, scheme and play calling philosophies, structure of the coaching staff, medical & conditioning, evaluating players and determining when to extend vs when to trade or release at the right time, contracts, trade evaluations, all of it.  And that conclusion is to fire Howie and bring in a new GM from a consistently solid organization to reshape how they do things.

I agree they don't have to rebuild the offense in the sense of tanking, trading everyone for draft picks and starting over.  There are pieces there and some young guys.  But it means purging most of the older veterans or guys like Cox and Ertz who you're not going to want to extend contracts again because they're at the end of their careers.  In looking at your list above, it is the start of a rebuild/retool in a sense.  There's also the cap situation where they are going to have to release some guys.  I do not want them to restructure or extend a player unless they think he's a 4-5 year player.  They got in the contract mess with guys who are getting paid to be on IR for 2 years.  

The receivers on your list (which I agree with) are rebuilt over the last 2 seasons:  replacing Jeffrey, Jackson, Agholor and Ertz with the 4 young guys. Agree on adding backup talent at RB including a guy who can start if Sanders hurt.  Clement needs to go. 

On O line, it's time to rebuild.  Peters will be gone, and they should release Brooks who has been injured too much and it will only continue.  Kelce is still playing well.  His contract expires after 2021 so next year they have to decide if they're going to extend him.  Will he sign a 2 year deal?  You can't go beyond that, especially since he's talked retiring for 2 years.  Will he want more money and leave for another team?  Either way, they have to get a replacement plan this offseason. 

Lane Johnson is under contract until 2025!  But it looks like he can be released after 2022 with minimal damage to the cap.  Lane has been a beast but like Peters and Brooks toward the end, injuries are piling up.  A team can't keep going into a season relying on guys returning from injury who end up being out for the season or significant games each season a 2nd season in a row (or 3rd!).  If they have to keep relying on these young guys then just purge the injured guys...this team is not a Super Bowl contender anyway.  Go with the young O lineman and Kelce and Johnson but keep developing linemen ready to step in.

Don't forget looks like they need a new kicker, backup TE and depth at receiver since they have injury issues.  What if Reagor or Goedert gets hurt again and either Ward or Fulgham.  Then you are back to having scrubs at receiver.   

Your points on defense, you didn't list out next year's starters the same way as offense but you noted changes are needed.  Let's look at each unit:

D line:  Cox and Hargrave are both signed through 2022.  They should not extend or restructure Cox further as he's at the end.  He will play the next 2 seasons but you expect at his age the decline to start soon so you need a backup plan.  He's playing great right now.  Could potentially be trade bait though.  Graham's a free agent after next season and he also should not be extended or restructured.  Need youth.  They need to get a top DE prospect to pair with Barnett and have a replacement plan for Cox at DT.  But the D line has been the strength of the defense.

LB:  LOL.  They are hot garbage and they need to rebuild there.

Secondary:  blow it up, they suck. Slay is signed through 2023 and is their best player, you need him.  Literally everyone else in the secondary is at best just ok, some of them flat out suck.  They have not drafted top talent on defense since 2012 when Reid drafted Cox.  They are dreadful at drafting LB and secondary.  

 

Yeah I agree with most of what you say. I'm still hoping that Elliot is just going through a bad patch but we'll see.

I'll say again that I think Schwartz has done a really good job with what he has to work with. His scheme makes his corners look very bad at times, but overall he has done a really good job considering the lack of investment on the D and the injuries. It may be time to move on for both sides, but I think a lot of Schwartz haters will be surprised that the D won't get any better under a new DC.

 

[PoconoDon]

One thing that bothers me probably the most is adopting the "good enough" philosophy. It creates compromises everywhere in the organization that leads to an endless stream of "middle of the pack" results with the rare outlier (good or bad.) It's being the perennial 8-8 team with a MOE of +/- 2 games with the rare 3-13 season and the even more rare SB win (I see you 2017.) 

Things that lead to adopting that broken philosophy are manifold and must be rejected. One example is the "everybody does it" justification, which in truth justifies nothing. Everybody has bad drafts so our mediocre drafting is "good enough" or should be "good enough". I call BS. Somebody is drafting the best year in and year out and often it's a small group of a few teams doing it draft, after draft, after draft.

How strongly does that draft performance correlate with winning it all? Very strongly. To me, it looks like the strongest indicator of upcoming Championship success because it keeps showing up in every multiple championship team in the NFL regardless of era.  Case in point the Steelers draft 4 HOF players in one draft and then go on to win 4 out of 6 SB's. Another case in point, the Cowpukes get 2 rosters and drafts to work with, drafted a slew of top talents through high volume, and go on to win 3 out of 4 SB's. Other teams like the 49'ers in the 80's and the Pats of the past 20 years drafted very well in waves and went on multiple runs of success. Who has been drafting the best of late? Looks like the KC Chiefs are at the top of the lists I see, but that comes as no surprise. 

 Organizations that consistently draft at or near the top of an efficiency list don't just stop at player personnel. They generally find really good GM's, Scouts, Coaches, write really good contracts, make really good trades, and have really good FO and other support staff (training, medical, etc.) What they don't have is 1 person in house who surrenders to the "good enough" philosophy, because they know it must be rejected at all times, lest it drag you into mediocrity.

The Eagles...well...I know what I suspect about their organization. IMO, ONLY Jeffrey Lurie can defeat that philosophy because it must come from him. The definition of who a team is comes from the very top and nowhere else. As a fan, I am looking at him for the tough, smart, and steady leadership that is required moving forward. I think it's time for him to command from the front rather than the rear. Sadly for me, I don't get a say, so it's up to him now.

[mjkvol]

1 hour ago, PoconoDon said:

One thing that bothers me probably the most is adopting the "good enough" philosophy. It creates compromises everywhere in the organization that leads to an endless stream of "middle of the pack" results with the rare outlier (good or bad.) It's being the perennial 8-8 team with a MOE of +/- 2 games with the rare 3-13 season and the even more rare SB win (I see you 2017.) 

Things that lead to adopting that broken philosophy are manifold and must be rejected. One example is the "everybody does it" justification, which in truth justifies nothing. Everybody has bad drafts so our mediocre drafting is "good enough" or should be "good enough". I call BS. Somebody is drafting the best year in and year out and often it's a small group of a few teams doing it draft, after draft, after draft.

How strongly does that draft performance correlate with winning it all? Very strongly. To me, it looks like the strongest indicator of upcoming Championship success because it keeps showing up in every multiple championship team in the NFL regardless of era.  Case in point the Steelers draft 4 HOF players in one draft and then go on to win 4 out of 6 SB's. Another case in point, the Cowpukes get 2 rosters and drafts to work with, drafted a slew of top talents through high volume, and go on to win 3 out of 4 SB's. Other teams like the 49'ers in the 80's and the Pats of the past 20 years drafted very well in waves and went on multiple runs of success. Who has been drafting the best of late? Looks like the KC Chiefs are at the top of the lists I see, but that comes as no surprise. 

 Organizations that consistently draft at or near the top of an efficiency list don't just stop at player personnel. They generally find really good GM's, Scouts, Coaches, write really good contracts, make really good trades, and have really good FO and other support staff (training, medical, etc.) What they don't have is 1 person in house who surrenders to the "good enough" philosophy, because they know it must be rejected at all times, lest it drag you into mediocrity.

The Eagles...well...I know what I suspect about their organization. IMO, ONLY Jeffrey Lurie can defeat that philosophy because it must come from him. The definition of who a team is comes from the very top and nowhere else. As a fan, I am looking at him for the tough, smart, and steady leadership that is required moving forward. I think it's time for him to command from the front rather than the rear. Sadly for me, I don't get a say, so it's up to him now.

This exact conversation has (and did ad nauseum in the old Ask Dave thread, remember?) taken place during and after most of the last fifteen years.          These same nagging questions and talk about "what we need to do", over and over and over again.       

You have to ask, who are the people that have been here throughout that entire time period?       The answer is exactly where the problem lies - Jeffrey Lurie and Howie Roseman.           The template was created by Andy Reid and Joe Banner, and the "gold standard" philosophy hasn't changed except for 'emotional intelligence' now being the guiding principle.        Oh, and the Eagles declaring themselves a "QB factory".

Lurie isn't going anywhere, but unless he decides to break with his management philosophy, clean house, and go and get a real NFL GM to run this thing, nothing of substance will ever change here.             2017 is looking more and more like a gift from the heavens every minute.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

You are both very well reasoned and usually balanced posters, but on the flip side there are those who cannot see that Howie has done any good at all and don't recognise that a lot of teams miss badly on draft picks. Howie's 2017 draft was awful. His 2018 draft was very good. 

Was it? Please explain and state your defense for Howie?

[PoconoDon]

8 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

This exact conversation has (and did ad nauseum in the old Ask Dave thread, remember?) taken place during or after most of the fifteen years.          These same nagging questions and talk about "what we need to do", over and over and over again.       

You have to ask, who are the people that have been here throughout that entire time period?       The answer is exactly where the problem lies - Jeffrey Lurie and Howie Roseman.           The template was created by Andy Reid and Joe Banner, and the "gold standard" philosophy hasn't changed except for 'emotional intelligence' now being the guiding principle.        Oh, and the Eagles declaring themselves a "QB factory".

Lurie isn't going anywhere, but unless he decides to break with his management philosophy, clean house, and go and get a real NFL GM to run this thing, nothing of substance will ever change here.             2017 is looking more and more like a gift from the heavens every minute.

Of course it's the same old story, because it's the same authors writing it. I'm just expressing my hope that the writer in charge starts a new story...a story of sustained elite success. I'm not predicting it, just hoping against hope for it. After all, as Eagles' fans, it seems to be our fate.

[Road to Victory]

6 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

This exact conversation has (and did ad nauseum in the old Ask Dave thread, remember?) taken place during and after most of the last fifteen years.          These same nagging questions and talk about "what we need to do", over and over and over again.       

You have to ask, who are the people that have been here throughout that entire time period?       The answer is exactly where the problem lies - Jeffrey Lurie and Howie Roseman.           The template was created by Andy Reid and Joe Banner, and the "gold standard" philosophy hasn't changed except for 'emotional intelligence' now being the guiding principle.        Oh, and the Eagles declaring themselves a "QB factory".

Lurie isn't going anywhere, but unless he decides to break with his management philosophy, clean house, and go and get a real NFL GM to run this thing, nothing of substance will ever change here.             2017 is looking more and more like a gift from the heavens every minute.

This year is going to set back the organization for years. Unfortunately, they’ll probably win the division and get knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st round which will be enough for Howie to keep his job. Then we’ll be picking in the low 20’s every round when we should be picking in the top 10 every round. When I think about the players we could’ve had if we were picking 10 spots higher in every round  over the years it’s mind boggling. Lurie needs to blow this thing up sooner rather than later. Another year of Howie is another wasted year. 

[ManchesterEagle]

15 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Was it? Please explain and state your defense for Howie?

2018 was a good draft - definitely

5 picks and gained a second for the year after. Goedert (looks like a top 5 TE in the league). Sweat - emerged as a legitimate rotational Defensive End. Maddox - starting corner (admittedly much better at nickel or safety). Mailata - has emerged as a legitimate starting LT from the 7th round.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, ManchesterEagle said:

2018 was a good draft - definitely

5 picks and gained a second for the year after. Goedert (looks like a top 5 TE in the league). Sweat - emerged as a legitimate rotational Defensive End. Maddox - starting corner (admittedly much better at nickel or safety). Mailata - has emerged as a legitimate starting LT from the 7th round.

And why did they only have 5 picks? That's on Howie too. 

I'm not convinced by Maddox if I'm honest. They need to use him at nickel or safety and then we shall see... But he's gone backwards after a positive start. Mailata, he's look encouraging but let's not get carried away just yet. The signs are encouraging for sure. 

[Ray75]

3 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

2018 was a good draft - definitely

5 picks and gained a second for the year after. Goedert (looks like a top 5 TE in the league). Sweat - emerged as a legitimate rotational Defensive End. Maddox - starting corner (admittedly much better at nickel or safety). Mailata - has emerged as a legitimate starting LT from the 7th round.

 

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

And why did they only have 5 picks? That's on Howie too. 

I'm not convinced by Maddox if I'm honest. They need to use him at nickel or safety and then we shall see... But he's gone backwards after a positive start. Mailata, he's look encouraging but let's not get carried away just yet. The signs are encouraging for sure. 

How is 2018 suddenly a good class?! We only had 5 picks!

Goedert is a good TE, Maddox like a lot of other okay nickel corners you can have in the middle rounds, they took a flyer on Sweat (health concerns) which looks to pay off, Pryor is just a below average backup OL and Mailata has never played football in his life. We’d have to thank Stoutman for turning the latter into something.

No, in 10 years being the GM, I haven’t seen Howie having a really good haul. Not one! He only has a few good players to show for but that’s it...and IMO that’s not enough...

[UK_EaglesFan89]

19 minutes ago, Ray75 said:

How is 2018 suddenly a good class?! We only had 5 picks!

My point exactly! And why did we only have 5? Because our wonderful GM trades them away like they are candies at Halloween. 

[NOTW]

4 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

2018 was a good draft - definitely

5 picks and gained a second for the year after. Goedert (looks like a top 5 TE in the league). Sweat - emerged as a legitimate rotational Defensive End. Maddox - starting corner (admittedly much better at nickel or safety). Mailata - has emerged as a legitimate starting LT from the 7th round.

Goedert is a good player. Maddox is just ok and Sweat is a backup rotational player. Meh. A 7th round project who never played, probably a guy Stoutland wanted.

If that's the best Howie can do they're in trouble. 

2020 is too early to tell but some missed opportunities. 2019 got Sanders at least, another player everyone knew would be good. JJAW is a bust. Dillard was ok in a few games but we'll have to see next year. He may lose his job to a 7th round project who never played football. The other 2 picks were busts.

2017 was a bust except Barnett. Even worse because it was a deep corner and RB class and they came up empty. 

2016 other than Wentz, Seumalo is just ok, Mills sucks and the rest are no longer on the roster. 

That's terrible drafting. He's reliedon trades and free agents too much because he can't draft.

[mjkvol]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:11 PM, PoconoDon said:

Of course it's the same old story, because it's the same authors writing it. I'm just expressing my hope that the writer in charge starts a new story...a story of sustained elite success. I'm not predicting it, just hoping against hope for it. After all, as Eagles' fans, it seems to be our fate.

Sadly, as the old cliche goes, a zebra can't change its stripes.           We can hope and pray, but I long ago resigned myself to the idea that we were always destined to fall that same one or two steps short, over and over again.          2017 was the ultimate sports definition of a lightning bolt, and you know how that other cliche goes - lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place. 

[mjkvol]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:13 PM, Road to Victory said:

This year is going to set back the organization for years. Unfortunately, they’ll probably win the division and get knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st round which will be enough for Howie to keep his job. Then we’ll be picking in the low 20’s every round when we should be picking in the top 10 every round. When I think about the players we could’ve had if we were picking 10 spots higher in every round  over the years it’s mind boggling. Lurie needs to blow this thing up sooner rather than later. Another year of Howie is another wasted year. 

Yeah, it's almost cruel - a 6-9-1 season just might win this division, and instead of a top 10-12 pick we'll be picking, as you said, in the low 20's.        But Lurie will cash in on that home playoff game we lose, and Roseman will get a pass.           A cruel joke, indeed.

To be honest, it wouldn't matter.         The "Executive of the Year" isn't going anywhere unless there's an implosion.       And if there's one thing we've learned about the Eagles in the last 20 years, aside from 2012 they don't do implosions.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

48 minutes ago, mjkvol said:

Yeah, it's almost cruel - a 6-9-1 season just might win this division, and instead of a top 10-12 pick we'll be picking, as you said, in the low 20's.   

The low 20s thing isn't such an issue. Good teams that are run well and do things right tend to pick in that range often and they still find talent. The biggest issue this team has is the GM. 

[Talonblood]

I think they beat Dallas this Sunday night, but if they don't... blow this whole thing up.

[Portyansky]

20 minutes ago, Talonblood said:

I think they beat Dallas this Sunday night, but if they don't... blow this whole thing up.

Divisional games are always hard. No matter how good or bad the teams are. 

[EagleMatt]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:19 PM, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Some fans just want to keep the positivity no matter what. Apparently as a fan we aren't allowed to be negative or to see the issues with our team. We need to put the blinkers on and be happy with Howie. Be happy with his drafts and how he's built this roster. 

I remember when we had sam and chip i was critical on reddit and always get shet all over.

[EagleJoe8]

10 minutes ago, Portyansky said:

Divisional games are always hard. No matter how good or bad the teams are. 

Yep, and even a bad Giants team, we didn't win as easy as we maybe should have. Had a good chance to lose that one.

[mjkvol]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The low 20s thing isn't such an issue. Good teams that are run well and do things right tend to pick in that range often and they still find talent. The biggest issue this team has is the GM. 

Excellent point.         

But those teams are well run year in and year out - they know how to maximize those late picks with talent that fits what they do, they understand how to turn a roster over, parting ways with talent before its expiration date to generate more picks, they don't prioritize "locking up" or falling in love with decent players just because they drafted them, they don't have sentiment regarding players who have been good soldiers who are older and can be turned into younger talent,  they don't think up silly slogans to show how progressive they are, and they don't proclaim themselves to be 'gold standards' or QB factories'.            They are like sharks, always moving forward, relentlessly going for the kill, with only one goal - to win.

As long as Jeffrey Lurie owns the Eagles, we will be none of those things.             Emotional intelligence and that kind of singleminded dedication to winning will never mesh.            Just be thankful for 2017, because we may never see anything like it again.