3 minutes ago, nipples said:

What does some low passes or "worm burners” have to do with arm strength? He undeniably had one of the strongest arms in the league. 

I'm making fun of the canon arm fluff on these boards. And the wormburners were a constant criticism thrown around to point out how inaccurate fans thought he was. 

And as Pallidrone stated, he was also criticized for throwing too hard. 

7 minutes ago, nipples said:

Honestly I still don’t think he was a great QB overall. He was good, but not great. My whole point was that he was clearly better as a QB than Hurts is. 

Going into year 3, there were a lot of fans that thought the Eagles made a mistake with McNabb, that he would never win, that Reid had no idea what he was doing as he was only a QB coach and that they should have drafted Culpepper. 

They complained that all he could do was play in shotgun, that he ran too much,, and that he did not have the mental capacity to play QB because of his low wonderlic score.

I would argue that other than his draft position, there were quite a few fans that held McNabb at the same level as Hurts is right now when it comes to playing the QB position.

2 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

Going into year 3, there were a lot of fans that thought the Eagles made a mistake with McNabb, that he would never win, that Reid had no idea what he was doing as he was only a QB coach and that they should have drafted Culpepper. 

They complained that all he could do was play in shotgun, that he ran too much,, and that he did not have the mental capacity to play QB because of his low wonderlic score.

I would argue that other than his draft position, there were quite a few fans that held McNabb at the same level as Hurts is right now when it comes to playing the QB position.

This is revisionist history. Why do you think McNabb was in discussion of being the number one overall pick, and ultimately going #2 overall, while Hurts was largely considered a big reach in the mid-2nd round? 

Just now, TorontoEagle said:

This is revisionist history. Why do you think McNabb was in discussion of being the number one overall pick, and ultimately going #2 overall, while Hurts was largely considered a big reach in the mid-2nd round? 

It is absolutely not revisionist history. That is 100% what happened.

Just now, pallidrone said:

Going into year 3, there were a lot of fans that thought the Eagles made a mistake with McNabb, that he would never win, that Reid had no idea what he was doing as he was only a QB coach and that they should have drafted Culpepper. 

They complained that all he could do was play in shotgun, that he ran too much,, and that he did not have the mental capacity to play QB because of his low wonderlic score.

Also won 11 games at the end of his second year throwing 21 TDS in an offense that had little to nothing for him. I remember the debate about him and Culpepper. Most ignored the talent around them in the debate. Also Culpepper started off in an offense built for him. It took a few years for Andy to convert his west coast offense to match Donovan's traits. After the adjustment, there was always a burner on the field that Donovan could throw to (Pinkston, TO, Stallworth, Curtis, Jackson). Donovan was damn good. I can agree with those who don't want to say great, but he only had one losing record after his rookie year until the end of his career. Man was a consistent winner

 

 

46 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

You're pretty good with the running percentages vs passing. Would you mind doing Mahomes? 

Mahomes' last two years at Texas Tech he was:

131 rushes to 573 passes = 22.9%

131 rushes to 591 passes = 22.2%

 

Mahomes' rookie season in KC he was:

60 rushes to 580 passes = 10.3%

 

Andy values a mobile QB but understands the QB his to win with his arm and distribute the football.

Also, if mcnabb came into the draft, he would still get picked one of the top picks any year. He was a collection of talent. May have not cashed it all in, but damn he had a career with what we got out of him. 

1 minute ago, Shalodeep said:

Also won 11 games at the end of his second year throwing 21 TDS in an offense that had little to nothing for him. I remember the debate about him and Culpepper. Most ignored the talent around them in the debate. Also Culpepper started off in an offense built for him. It took a few years for Andy to convert his west coast offense to match Donovan's traits. After the adjustment, there was always a burner on the field that Donovan could throw to (Pinkston, TO, Stallworth, Curtis, Jackson). Donovan was damn good. I can agree with those who don't want to say great, but he only had one losing record after his rookie year until the end of his career. Man was a consistent winner

 

 

I agree. I was always a McNabb fan. I am just saying that there were a TON of detractors out there that absolutely hated him and thought he was the worst QB in the league. There was a sizeable section of the fanbase that thought they should have traded McNabb off and started Feeley instead.

8 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

It's more than "1 season as a starter". It's his whole career. The same problems he's had since college, he hasn't fixed. You thinking he's just going to magically transform overnight is mystifying.

 

8 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

It's not a bias to watch his college film and his two years of NFL film and see the same thing. Rolls and runs too often, favors one side of the field, not particularly accurate, throws to open but can't really throw anyone open due to horrible anticipation. It's not bias, it's actually a non bias observation 

Hurts from year 1 to year 2

Completion percentage rose from 52 percent to 61 percent. His qbr went from 33.8 to 48.5. His rating went from 77.6 to 87.2. His pff rating went from 56.2 to 80.8. His preseason ranking this year is considerably higher in every poll than it was last year.

This narrative that he hasn't gotten better is not connected to reality in any way. Of all the dumb arguments to make against Jalen Hurts, the one that he hasn't shown improvement is, without a doubt, the absolute nut low, and anyone doing it should be embarrassed about how dumb they are.

1 minute ago, jsb235 said:

 

Hurts from year 1 to year 2

Completion percentage rose from 52 percent to 61 percent. His qbr went from 33.8 to 48.5. His rating went from 77.6 to 87.2. His pff rating went from 56.2 to 80.8. His preseason ranking this year is considerably higher in every poll than it was last year.

This narrative that he hasn't gotten better is not connected to reality in any way. Of all the dumb arguments to make against Jalen Hurts, the one that he hasn't shown improvement is, without a doubt, the absolute nut low, and anyone doing it should be embarrassed about how dumb they are.

Here's his draft profile from NFL.com:

• Has issues sustaining rhythm as passer with so many off-schedule throws
• Inconsistent patience allowing routes to develop
• Slow recognition of early throw opportunities
• Leaves slants and crossers behind targets
• Misses checkdowns and opts for harder throws
• Deep arm dip into elongated release
• Forced speedsters at OU and Alabama to slow for deep throws
• Needs to get better at trusting his pocket
• Quick to drop his eyes when pressure mounts
• More likely to void pocket than climb, scan and throw from it

21 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

It is absolutely not revisionist history. That is 100% what happened.

McNabb almost won MVP in his 2nd season (first season as the full time starter). His 3rd year began the NFCCG runs. What are you talking about? 

Andy Reid was Sporting News coach of the year in 2000 as well. 

7 minutes ago, jsb235 said:

 

Hurts from year 1 to year 2

Completion percentage rose from 52 percent to 61 percent. His qbr went from 33.8 to 48.5. His rating went from 77.6 to 87.2. His pff rating went from 56.2 to 80.8. His preseason ranking this year is considerably higher in every poll than it was last year.

This narrative that he hasn't gotten better is not connected to reality in any way. Of all the dumb arguments to make against Jalen Hurts, the one that he hasn't shown improvement is, without a doubt, the absolute nut low, and anyone doing it should be embarrassed about how dumb they are.

Ah yes. From the worst possible numbers period to one of the worst starters in the league is such a huge upgrade. Most of the hype to his growth going into this year is based around #11, not anything he showed last year. If we had the same receivers, he'd not be getting half the fluff he has been getting.  He was ranked in the 20s in most passing stats. Until he changes that, he isn't what you think he is and he is exactly what we say he has been....below average 

 

11 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Here's his draft profile from NFL.com:

• Has issues sustaining rhythm as passer with so many off-schedule throws
• Inconsistent patience allowing routes to develop
• Slow recognition of early throw opportunities
• Leaves slants and crossers behind targets
• Misses checkdowns and opts for harder throws
• Deep arm dip into elongated release
• Forced speedsters at OU and Alabama to slow for deep throws
• Needs to get better at trusting his pocket
• Quick to drop his eyes when pressure mounts
• More likely to void pocket than climb, scan and throw from it

Same stuff we discuss on this board. Scouts are obviously racist

Just now, Shalodeep said:

It's not a bias to watch his college film and his two years of NFL film and see the same thing. Rolls and runs too often, favors one side of the field, not particularly accurate, throws to open but can't really throw anyone open due to horrible anticipation. It's not bias, it's actually a non bias observation 

He hasn't had a full 2 seasons of actually playing the position.  You bring up his faults in college, yet ignore all the positive things he did.  Every single college QB has glaring weaknesses, and they work to eliminate them. He's in his 3rd year, 2nd as the starter, and it's his second offense he's had to learn. Let the guy develop.

3 minutes ago, MF POON said:

He hasn't had a full 2 seasons of actually playing the position.

What ??   He has been playing the position since high school.

Just now, downundermike said:

What ??   He has been playing the position since high school.

and i'm dumb? obviously we're referring to in the NFL

21 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

Here's his draft profile from NFL.com:

• Has issues sustaining rhythm as passer with so many off-schedule throws
• Inconsistent patience allowing routes to develop
• Slow recognition of early throw opportunities
• Leaves slants and crossers behind targets
• Misses checkdowns and opts for harder throws
• Deep arm dip into elongated release
• Forced speedsters at OU and Alabama to slow for deep throws
• Needs to get better at trusting his pocket
• Quick to drop his eyes when pressure mounts
• More likely to void pocket than climb, scan and throw from it

 

4 minutes ago, MF POON said:

He hasn't had a full 2 seasons of actually playing the position.  You bring up his faults in college, yet ignore all the positive things he did.  Every single college QB has glaring weaknesses, and they work to eliminate them. He's in his 3rd year, 2nd as the starter, and it's his second offense he's had to learn. Let the guy develop.

Of that list....what has he improved upon? 

6 minutes ago, MF POON said:

He hasn't had a full 2 seasons of actually playing the position.  You bring up his faults in college, yet ignore all the positive things he did.  Every single college QB has glaring weaknesses, and they work to eliminate them. He's in his 3rd year, 2nd as the starter, and it's his second offense he's had to learn. Let the guy develop.

So a 2nd round reach who has the same weaknesses as college deserves multiple years of starting and building around....I wonder how good Rosen or Leaf would of been with that much support and time

1 minute ago, MF POON said:

and i'm dumb? obviously we're referring to in the NFL

Mac Jones didn't seem to let that bother him.  He had no full seasons playing the position in the NFL.

3800 yards, 67.6 completion percentage and 22 TD's.

The continued excuses that people try and come up with for Hurts is exhibit A why he is not the answer.

25 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

McNabb almost won MVP in his 2nd season (first season as the full time starter). His 3rd year began the NFCCG runs. What are you talking about? 

Andy Reid was Sporting News coach of the year in 2000 as well. 

You must have become a fan later in his career. What I am talking about is exactly what happened. How the radio personalities in Philly constantly talked about how bad he was. How the fans bought into that and complained every single time about how terrible he was. How the backup was always better, or X QB from X team was better. How Reid needed to run more to take the ball out of his hands because he couldnt complete a check-down without throwing a worm burner or a ball at 100 mph.

The messageboards crucified him. People like Rush Limbaugh talked crap about him. He was a very polarizing figure in football because of the way he played the game.

While this next part may be hyperbole but he was probably one of the most criticized players in the game.

2 minutes ago, pallidrone said:

You must have become a fan later in his career. What I am talking about is exactly what happened. How the radio personalities in Philly constantly talked about how bad he was. How the fans bought into that and complained every single time about how terrible he was. How the backup was always better, or X QB from X team was better. How Reid needed to run more to take the ball out of his hands because he couldnt complete a check-down without throwing a worm burner and a ball at 100 mph.

The messageboards crucified him. People like Rush Limbaugh talked crap about him. He was a very polarizing figure in football because of the way he played the game.

While this next part may be hyperbole but he was probably one of the most criticized players in the game.

Just now, downundermike said:

How does this disprove anything that I am saying?

8 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Mac Jones didn't seem to let that bother him.  He had no full seasons playing the position in the NFL.

3800 yards, 67.6 completion percentage and 22 TD's.

The continued excuses that people try and come up with for Hurts is exhibit A why he is not the answer.

Went to the same school too! 

Coach must be racist

2 hours ago, TorontoEagle said:

https://thelibertyline.com/2022/01/22/buccaneers-jalen-hurts-micd-up/

Is Todd Bowles racist?

Here's the problem, many young QB's have issues with reading NFL defenses, funny thing is you seldom hear that about white QB's, for instance, have you ever heard that about Wentz?  I sure as hell never heard it.  All one ever heard about Wentz' intelligence is he had a 4.0 GPA but I think it's fair to say he couldn't read a defense.....and still can't.

Just now, pallidrone said:

You must have become a fan later in his career. What I am talking about is exactly what happened. How the radio personalities in Philly constantly talked about how bad he was. How the fans bought into that and complained every single time about how terrible he was. How the backup was always better, or X QB from X team was better. How Reid needed to run more to take the ball out of his hands because he couldnt complete a check-down without throwing a worm burner and a ball at 100 mph.

The messageboards crucified him. People like Rush Limbaugh talked crap about him. He was a very polarizing figure in football because of the way he played the game.

While this next part may be hyperbole but he was probably one of the most criticized players in the game.

Here's what you originally said:

Going into year 3, there were a lot of fans that thought the Eagles made a mistake with McNabb, that he would never win, that Reid had no idea what he was doing as he was only a QB coach

That's unequivocally wrong. There was tons of hope for the team, after we made the playoffs, smacked the Bucs around then lost to the Giants. It was the pickle juice game and onside kick to start the year against Dallas. Again, McNabb almost won MVP, and Reid was largely considered a great coaching hire. 

You are now bringing in things that happened after that year. Culpepper had a great year in 2000 as well, yet he didn't pull in any MVP votes. 

So you're referring to some fringe radio callers, who are put on air because they have such stupid opinions as your proof? 

The Limbaugh BS didn't happen till 2003. 

And Reid was criticized more about his run/pass ratio than "taking the ball out of McNabb's hands". You have completely hyperbolized McNabb's early career. Good for you.