joemas6 Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 So my question. To me the most iconic play by who I feel is the best QB my eyes have seen..... Joe Montana finds Dwight Clarke in the endzone for the catch. That was all decided pre snap? That ruins a lot for me....all these years I thought these athletes had to rely on instincts, abilities and talent to do all these things that weren't planned. I'm not impressed as much now knowing that all these plays were all planned out exactly to the last detail pre snap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenbleedinNC Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2956601-ranking-every-nfl-teams-qb-situation-heading-into-2022-season FWIW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenbleedinNC Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 32 minutes ago, stine said: You read what defense is in. Then, based on that defense, you look at a specific man and see where he goes. Then you know where to throw the ball. Normally the read is the safety. Hurts could not read the defense and recognize who to go to based on that defense. Sure it can be taught, but he has been here for 2 years now and should know it by heart.... KNOWLEDGE Even in the college RPO offenses QB's must have 3 reads(unless it's a planned run). Your 2 outside guys come first,then your slot,finally unless it's planned you use your TE outlet and running should be a last resort. of course if all those guys are covered,then your team stinks anyway 🤣. pre GAME the coaches should know which of the 2 outsiders have the best match-up. That's not saying you ignore the other guy,but to me that's my primary read. That should take 1-2 seconds. if that's not there try your slot guy to see if he's giving a window(another 1 second) If those are gone see if your TE can make a play,if not you take off. Total elapsed time should be 4-4.5 seconds MAX. If you're holding the ball longer than that then you have issues at QB or play calling or both. Some plays you just need to throw it away. I was glad to see Siri kind of force the issues by changing the offensive calls after week 5. I feel he was giving a chance to Hurts to see if he could run the offense on his own. After the O line stopped holding for 6 seconds while Hurts made a decision,we saw holes open and the run game become effective,which opened up the passing game. I don't think Siri makes that mistake again,or I hope not. With all we gave Hurts,there is no reason to hold the ball more than 3 seconds or so. The talent for providing him windows is here and as we keep saying it's on him and I believe he is aware of that. Will be interesting to see Hurts on the field after all the time spent with House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunninghamtheman Posted June 2, 2022 Author Share Posted June 2, 2022 5 hours ago, stine said: If you say so. not worth discussing any longer...... My opinion is he couldn't read defenses pre snap, so he did not know who to go to. He read his #1 WR and if not open he tucked the ball and ran or forced it... That’s not what happened at all. Plenty of presnap adjustments were made. But then defenses can adjust. Or faking looks. Just so much that goes into reading what defenses are up to at the highest level. He went through reads post snap as well. Too many haters been playing this false angle up too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunninghamtheman Posted June 2, 2022 Author Share Posted June 2, 2022 On 6/1/2022 at 8:49 AM, joemas6 said: This is where Ham and I probably disagree on some things regarding QBs. He loves the running QB and the college game. I don't see that working in the pro game. Not where the QB runs 17 times in a game or where it's his best attribute. I see it as one vs eleven when the QB runs. I see it preventing the other players from touching the ball and I see the effects where long term we may not see the effort in getting open, the reps in catching the ball and the big obstacle for the running QB is when he throws an incomplete pass on a play where he could have run for 10 yards instead. I'm looking big picture on the bulk of the plays. Ham is looking at one play where the defense has to account for the running QB. I agree with that, but I feel the QB can rely on that too much where it stunts the growth of the rest of his game, namely spending time to make reads and throws. Why would a QB whose been able to run away from everyone his whole life and do it on his own all of a sudden change his game, when that game got him to the league and millions of dollars? When a good defense with top athletes... ( notice the plural athletes) decides to stop that QB from running, it changes the whole mindset. So far those QBs have struggled in playoff games. And I'm not talking about great passing QBs that can run, I'm talking about the guys where running is their go to move. This seems like it’s just overblown. Hurts isn’t a run first guy. He’s elite when he does run. He rushed one time for 18 carries. It was a huge win vs the Saints. Otherwise we are talking 8 or 9 times a game. You’d think that number might have been inflated by having one of the weakest WR rooms in the league. Hurts taking huge chunks on those 8 carries makes a DC account for it as a weapon. That has to help everybody else out. So yeah, I think he doesn’t have to exactly be Payton Manning passing if he can break off a few plays a game with his legs. Good to be multiple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenbleedinNC Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, cunninghamtheman said: This seems like it’s just overblown. Hurts isn’t a run first guy. He’s elite when he does run. He rushed one time for 18 carries. It was a huge win vs the Saints. Otherwise we are talking 8 or 9 times a game. You’d think that number might have been inflated by having one of the weakest WR rooms in the league. Hurts taking huge chunks on those 8 carries makes a DC account for it as a weapon. That has to help everybody else out. So yeah, I think he doesn’t have to exactly be Payton Manning passing if he can break off a few plays a game with his legs. Good to be multiple. The Saints game planned for Wentz, then we put in a totally different type QB. Only reason we won that game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunninghamtheman Posted June 2, 2022 Author Share Posted June 2, 2022 23 minutes ago, GreenbleedinNC said: The Saints game planned for Wentz, then we put in a totally different type QB. Only reason we won that game It was 2021 vs the Saints. Wentz was a Colt….briefly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunninghamtheman Posted June 2, 2022 Author Share Posted June 2, 2022 Just don’t want this QB taking off and running after his first read isn’t open getting traction. Just not even true. Not what was happening much. He mostly took off about 8 times rushing a game. So don’t want it getting blown up to more than twice that number…like it’s the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cunninghamtheman Posted June 2, 2022 Author Share Posted June 2, 2022 Hurts limitations are fairly clear. He doesn’t have a cannon arm. Has a good arm. He needs the experience to figure out the most advanced defensive scheming in history. I’d like to see Siri getting him on some more timing passing. Three step drop and zing. I’d like to see him look off defenders more. He can easily improve in this area. His less than pro-typical height is arguably his biggest flaw. This comes up when reading how the defense is playing everything postsnap. He can’t see over those huge Oline. For even the Dline. So he’s lived more on passing outside. Not working the S as much and missing some things occurring across the middle. Didn’t seem like he was the most accustomed to utilizing his TE. Felt like I saw him grow in this aspect of the offense. Became more of a weapon for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 4 hours ago, cunninghamtheman said: This seems like it’s just overblown. Hurts isn’t a run first guy. He’s elite when he does run. He rushed one time for 18 carries. It was a huge win vs the Saints. Otherwise we are talking 8 or 9 times a game. You’d think that number might have been inflated by having one of the weakest WR rooms in the league. Hurts taking huge chunks on those 8 carries makes a DC account for it as a weapon. That has to help everybody else out. So yeah, I think he doesn’t have to exactly be Payton Manning passing if he can break off a few plays a game with his legs. Good to be multiple. 4 hours ago, cunninghamtheman said: Just don’t want this QB taking off and running after his first read isn’t open getting traction. Just not even true. Not what was happening much. He mostly took off about 8 times rushing a game. So don’t want it getting blown up to more than twice that number…like it’s the norm. Which QB ran it close to 8 times per game? Tell me your opinion of who you think are " multiple " QBs....then we can look at their % of rushes vs pass attempts. We can look at the amount and % of plays that their team had vs how often the QB ran. Put it this way.... the #1 thing that happened last year for the Eagles to move the football was via Jalen Hurts rushing the ball. I'm not saying #1 as in the best...I'm saying #1 as in the most often. That's a run first QB. That hasn't worked in the NFL. It's not Mahomes, Allen, Steve Young, Mike Vick, Fran Tarkenton ...or anyone else you would consider a " mobile" QB or being " multiple " It's not over exaggerated.... it's the reality that I showed months ago with actual stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 The eye test that everyone else has seen.... we all can see Hurts taking off early very often. There was film breakdown of this all year. If not for this issue, nobody would be doubting him. We'll this and his passing. Again...because we all know he won't fail due to his running, lack of effort, not being liked, not willing to learn, not helping the old lady cross the street.. or anything else. People who have seen him play doubt his vision and throwing... that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Jalen Hurt ...2021 stats... 139 rush attempts in 15 games... 9.3 per game. 265 completions... 17.7 per game 432 pass attempts.... 28.8 per game. Eagles ran 930 plays in the 15 games Hurts played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Breakdown of Eagles plays = 38.6 % Some other than Hurts 46.4 % Hurts passing attempt 15% was a Hurts rush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Eagles plays = 930 Other player = 359 .... 39% Hurts completion = 265 .... 28% Hurts incomplete = 167 .... 18% Hurts run = 139 .... 15% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Hurts individual breakdown Total plays = 571 Completions = 265 .... 46% Incomplete = 167 .... 29% Rushes = 139.... 24% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 So find me a team where the QB ran it 15% of the teams plays? Find me a QB that ran it 24% of his own usage? Hurts is a running QB. That is his main weapon. Nobody doubts this ability. In 2022 he won't have the excuse of a weak receiver corp. What remains to be seen is if he can succeed passing the football at the NFL level. His running is what got him this far. Everything is set up for him to succeed as a passer. Will his passing improve enough to show he can be the guy that will be the highest paid player on the team? That's the question. The correct answer at this point is " we shall see" anything else is opinion one way or the other and means nothing. He will show it on the field and Howie/ Lurie will make their decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stine Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 17 hours ago, joemas6 said: So in your mind Hurts made up his mind to run PRE SNAP? It wasn't due to his first option not being there after the snap? If that is your thoughts then we see the game absolutely differently. Not at all! HE has a read and then sees the first option is not open AFTER the snap. Then he tucks and runs. Yes. I am simplifying what he needs to do, but he cannot read defenses pre-snap, or at least he couldn't last season. Tampa used vanilla defenses and he still could not figure out who to look for. He did not know who to key on after the snap to assist in his decision where to throw the ball. If he can figure this out, he will improve his game a bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stine Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 17 hours ago, GreenbleedinNC said: Even in the college RPO offenses QB's must have 3 reads(unless it's a planned run). Your 2 outside guys come first,then your slot,finally unless it's planned you use your TE outlet and running should be a last resort. of course if all those guys are covered,then your team stinks anyway 🤣. pre GAME the coaches should know which of the 2 outsiders have the best match-up. That's not saying you ignore the other guy,but to me that's my primary read. That should take 1-2 seconds. if that's not there try your slot guy to see if he's giving a window(another 1 second) If those are gone see if your TE can make a play,if not you take off. Total elapsed time should be 4-4.5 seconds MAX. If you're holding the ball longer than that then you have issues at QB or play calling or both. Some plays you just need to throw it away. I was glad to see Siri kind of force the issues by changing the offensive calls after week 5. I feel he was giving a chance to Hurts to see if he could run the offense on his own. After the O line stopped holding for 6 seconds while Hurts made a decision,we saw holes open and the run game become effective,which opened up the passing game. I don't think Siri makes that mistake again,or I hope not. With all we gave Hurts,there is no reason to hold the ball more than 3 seconds or so. The talent for providing him windows is here and as we keep saying it's on him and I believe he is aware of that. Will be interesting to see Hurts on the field after all the time spent with House Yes. I agree that there are many reads after the snap. I was just using simple decision making for my example. You have a play designed to throw to 1 of three people. If the 1st two are covered, you normally have a safe valve outlet pass. Hurts never gets to his second option let alone the third.... His mentality is to see the first option covered, tuck the ball and run with it. If they switch coverages after the snap he is lost completely.... This is what the Coaches are supposed to work on with the QB. He has been here for two full seasons going over defenses what to look for, where to go with the ball. He did not grasp any of that. For 2 years. 3rd year of looking at defenses and formations. He better know what to do out there. He does not have a strong arm so he needs to be able to use his brain to compensate. That is all I am trying to get across.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemas6 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, stine said: He did not grasp any of that. For 2 years. 3rd year of looking at defenses and formations. He better know what to do out there. He does not have a strong arm so he needs to be able to use his brain to compensate. That is all I am trying to get across.... Correct....so far he hasn't had the " ability " to grasp this at game speed. It's an ability and a talent to be able to do this post snap in a manor of moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedinggreen93 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Another day of debating Hurts lol 😂…. Think we all agree(outside of maybe ham) that Hurts need to show he can be an nfl caliber passer if he wants to stay as the long term option. As of right now he has been below avg. and that just won’t cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedinggreen93 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Well to look at it on a different more positive note of our QB situation. A. Hurts which I do see as unlikely but we get to keep our picks B. We get a new rookie QB on a team friendly deal and have cap space to build around him for another 4 years. C. We will throw the long shot in here as well some how Strong sees the fields and showcases he can be the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stine Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Personally I am rooting for A or C.... I like those picks! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stine Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Bleedinggreen93 said: Another day of debating Hurts lol 😂…. Think we all agree(outside of maybe ham) that Hurts need to show he can be an nfl caliber passer if he wants to stay as the long term option. As of right now he has been below avg. and that just won’t cut it. Good reason for this. Eagles season is going to be decided by his play IMO. Seems that Howie did what was needed to fill in almost every other hole. I mean we have better WR's, better D-Line, Better LB's and better CB's. Only areas not addressed was RB and S. We even drafted a QB..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleedinggreen93 Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 25 minutes ago, stine said: We even drafted a QB..... We signed an UDFA QB we didn’t draft one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenbleedinNC Posted June 3, 2022 Share Posted June 3, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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