Jalen Hurts discussion (Part 2) - see new topic for contract extension

[EagleJoe8]

6 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

That’s sophistry

How so?

[Aerolithe_Lion]

9 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

How so?

What Jalen hurts has done is reasonable expectation of what a QB’s responsibilities are in a football game. Comparing that to moving him to a foreign position doesn’t prove or disprove the merit of how much Jalen runs.

[EagleJoe8]

Just now, Aerolithe_Lion said:

What Jalen hurts has done is reasonable expectation of what a QB’s responsibilities are in a football game. Comparing that to moving him to a foreign position doesn’t prove or disprove the merit of how much Jalen runs.

I’ve never argued the quantity of his runs. I’ve argued the quality. I’ve said several times I don’t care how often he does it as long as he is smart with it. The game he played against Green Bay where he ran a lot was fine. He took runs that got him into wide open space. The game he played in Chicago was not smart IMO. He repeatedly kept the ball on keepers that had no chance at more than a couple yards, aside from the 22 yard TD run. It was a stupid game and it almost cost us big. 

[SkippyX]

2 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

How so?

Its textbook sophistry.

Punt returner might be the most dangerous position on the field. You often get leveled by people you don't even see coming.

100s of great speed players over the years have not returned punts (or very rarely) for that reason.

 

Darrell Green may have been the best punt returner of all-time but they only used him for about 50 returns and and another 6 in the playoffs because they wanted their all pro corner for 16 games a year for 15+ years. This is his best return and he actually gets hurt in the middle of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey4SSrWnaug

The only QB I can recall ever returning punts was Joe Theismann and it was in 1974 as a first year backup QB.

 

 

[EagleJoe8]

1 minute ago, SkippyX said:

Its textbook sophistry.

Punt returner might be the most dangerous position on the field. You often get leveled by people you don't even see coming.

100s of great speed players over the years have not returned punts (or very rarely) for that reason.

 

Darrell Green may have been the best punt returner of all-time but they only used him for about 50 returns and and another 6 in the playoffs because they wanted their all pro corner for 16 games a year for 15+ years. This is his best return and he actually gets hurt in the middle of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey4SSrWnaug

The only QB I can recall ever returning punts was Joe Theismann and it was in 1974 as a first year backup QB.

 

 

You guys do understand, I’m not really advocating for Hurts to be our punt returner, right?

[SkippyX]

39 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

You guys do understand, I’m not really advocating for Hurts to be our punt returner, right?

Yes, you used it as a nonsensical example that added nothing to anything.

[EagleJoe8]

43 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Yes, you used it as a nonsensical example that added nothing to anything.

Except for the fact that you touched on the very point I was making. Just because someone can get hurt at any time playing the game, doesn’t make it wise to introduce more factors that only increase the risk. 

[eagle45]

I think Hurts' runs should be limited to his judgement calls when the middle of the field is wide open due to defenses on their heels against the pass...and the called butt push plays.  I don't have stats to back it up, but it feels like his RPO runs out wide aren't all that effective.

[brkmsn]

9 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

You seem oblivious to the concept of risk mitigation. Since you acknowledge a player can be hurt at any given time, answer a simple question. Since Hurts is much more dynamic with the ball in his hands than Covey ever will be, why not have Hurts return punts? We can get better returns, and use that roster spot elsewhere.

 

Sound like a good idea? If not, why? If so, why does no team with a dynamic running QB do that?

To be clear, I argued a lot in favor of using Westbrook to return punts instead of Mahe --- not just because Westbrook was a more dynamic ball carrier, but because Westbrook was one of the best punt returners in the NFL and Mahe was one of the worst. Have you ever seen Hurts field punts? We had several RBs and a couple WRs that were more dynamic with the ball than Covey. Why weren't they returning punts for the same reason? Maybe they aren't comfortable with that responsibility. Maybe their hands are suspect or they have a difficult time tracking the ball . Maybe the coaches want to keep some of them fresh because they play 90-100% of the offensive snaps. Maybe since Hurts works with the QBs and the RBs in practice, even if he were a dynamic punt returner, there just wouldn't be an opportunity to get him involved in special teams as well. Practice only lasts so long and obviously QBs have a lot on their plate. 

For Hurts, risk mitigation is knowing when to slide, run out of bounds, or throw the ball away. 

In the case of Westbrook, my argument was that even if you were trying to regulate his touches, the yardage difference between a Westbrook return and a Mahe return was about the average of a Westbrook run. So better starting field position would allow you to have one less run play (on an average scoring drive.) Also, fair catches allow a punt returner to have virtually no injury risk or stamina loss. While it's possible there may be other times, the only Eagles punt returner I remember seeing get injured was DJax on that late hit a couple years ago. People act like it's just a terribly dangerous play for a return man. Personally I believe catching passes is a much riskier job because the player has to look back for the ball. Runners and return men get to keep their eyes forward in most cases. 

[EagleJoe8]

21 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

To be clear, I argued a lot in favor of using Westbrook to return punts instead of Mahe --- not just because Westbrook was a more dynamic ball carrier, but because Westbrook was one of the best punt returners in the NFL and Mahe was one of the worst. Have you ever seen Hurts field punts? We had several RBs and a couple WRs that were more dynamic with the ball than Covey. Why weren't they returning punts for the same reason? Maybe they aren't comfortable with that responsibility. Maybe their hands are suspect or they have a difficult time tracking the ball . Maybe the coaches want to keep some of them fresh because they play 90-100% of the offensive snaps. Maybe since Hurts works with the QBs and the RBs in practice, even if he were a dynamic punt returner, there just wouldn't be an opportunity to get him involved in special teams as well. Practice only lasts so long and obviously QBs have a lot on their plate. 

For Hurts, risk mitigation is knowing when to slide, run out of bounds, or throw the ball away. 

In the case of Westbrook, my argument was that even if you were trying to regulate his touches, the yardage difference between a Westbrook return and a Mahe return was about the average of a Westbrook run. So better starting field position would allow you to have one less run play (on an average scoring drive.) Also, fair catches allow a punt returner to have virtually no injury risk or stamina loss. While it's possible there may be other times, the only Eagles punt returner I remember seeing get injured was DJax on that late hit a couple years ago. People act like it's just a terribly dangerous play for a return man. Personally I believe catching passes is a much riskier job because the player has to look back for the ball. Runners and return men get to keep their eyes forward in most cases. 

Risk mitigation can also mean not subjecting Hurts to more punishment than necessary. Obviously, he’s a football player and can’t be bubble wrapped, but for a man who sometime sooner than later is going to find himself in the $50 Million a year club, it doesn’t make sense for some abuse that is clearly unnecessary. We generally have very capable RBs. Let them take some of that burden. The majority of Hurts’ runs in Chicago seemed to have a very low probability of gaining significant yardage, and a high probability of his taking unnecessary hits. That’s all I’m trying to see them avoid doing. I have no desire to see Mariota play meaningful snaps this year. Mop up duty and games late in the season when playoff seeding is wrapped up is fine by me. 

[mr_irie1]

Wait... Joe Theismann returned punts? In a real NFL game? That's crazy 

[NOTW]

On 4/4/2023 at 12:52 AM, mr_irie1 said:

Wait... Joe Theismann returned punts? In a real NFL game? That's crazy 

And look what happened to his leg!  

What's funny is original football came from Rugby and then when the NFL wanted to allow the forward pass it was a big controversy for a QB to actually throw the ball.  Now it's a controversy if the QB runs the ball.  Hurts is just nostalgic for the good ole days.

[KINGnabb]

I'm so happy.  He's going to be our QB the Entire Decade.   Jalen you deserve every single cent and then some.   Can't wait to see what the next several years has in store.  

[The Holy Vagabond]

Another great job by Howie. Big props to Jalen. Well deserved bag. I believe in the young man. Let’s go get some chips. 

[jthomas666]

5 years, $255 million.  Jalen's gettin' PAID!.

[Eagles_All_Day]

 

[Portyansky]

Thought it would be more team friendly. But happy it's done.

[Eagles_All_Day]

 

[Mike030270]

2 minutes ago, Portyansky said:

Thought it would be more team friendly. But happy it's done.

Knew it wouldn't be but it's great we got it in before the others

Hurts deserved big money after his 2022 season

[ManchesterEagle]

Great news! A lot, but deserved and important to get it done before Herbert/Burrow. 

[KINGnabb]

9 minutes ago, Portyansky said:

Thought it would be more team friendly. But happy it's done.

The contract doesn't technically start until 2024, he's still on the rookie deal this year but he did get a signing bonus.  Look, Franchise QB's right now are super expensive.   Burrow and Hurbert were going to command a lot too.  I'm happy Howie got ahead of it.  Jalen's contract might actually affect theirs too.  I didn't like all the talk of a 7 year Patrick like deal.  That was a little too long.  We drafted Jalen in 2020.  By 2028 that's damn near a Decade.    Very happy for him.  

[Aerolithe_Lion]

10 minutes ago, Eagles_All_Day said:

 

First No trade clause is only technically true

 

If a team is unhappy with a player and doesn’t have a Derek Carr type stupid contract to prevent it, the player is getting traded one way or the other. All a no trade clause is in today’s nfl is the players ability to decline certain teams that he can be traded to. We let Mcnabb do this out of respect, as we could have gotten a first rounder from Oakland for him. So Hurts is officially the first QB with this in his contract, but that’s really just technicalities over semantics.

[Sturm]

4 minutes ago, Aerolithe_Lion said:

First No trade clause is only technically true

 

If a team is unhappy with a player and doesn’t have a Derek Carr type stupid contract to prevent it, the player is getting traded one way or the other. All a no trade clause is in today’s nfl is the players ability to decline certain teams that he can be traded to. We let Mcnabb do this out of respect, as we could have gotten a first rounder from Oakland for him. So Hurts is officially the first QB with this in his contract, but that’s really just technicalities over semantics.

You must not be fun at parties. 

[Rey]

Eagles got it done 1st and the new money doesn't kick in till 2024. Locked in for the next 6 years. I thought the "guaranteed" contract thing would cause a problem for all these QB's up for a new contract. Glad we don't have to worry about this any more.

[Eagles_All_Day]