EagleJoe8 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 8 hours ago, stinkfist said: Can we all stop and consider something? When Donovan McNabb was here, a lot of us questioned his leadership even while we liked him. I think that's a very, very, very fair assessment of Eagles' fans with Donovan here. People wondered if he could lead. My point is this, other than Hollis Thomas saying something to a guy in Delco or Ike Reese letting something slip once in a while, you didn't hear much from the Eagles themselves about Donovan being a leadership problem until Terrell Owens arrived and let's be honest, TO was a f'ing headcase. Christ, he was beautiful to watch though. Moving to my next point though... All we have heard about Carson Wentz is that there are problems behind the scenes. It has been non-stop. First was the Joe Santoquilito (I don't care how you spell it) story, then a follow up from Jimmy Kempski, then another shot across the bow from other sources, then we had several burner accounts nailing him, then another issue, then more ... IT NEVER STOPS with Carson Wentz. Doug says, "well that guy isn't at practices". OK Doug, why is someone always on Carson Wentz then man?!?! After a while, the smoke it obviously at least a little bit of fire. Am I the only one who has gone from dismissing this stuff to now really buying into Carson may be a f'ing headcase? Tell me I'm wrong and that these are all a string of random acts. With Donovan, you knew he was a leader because he told you quite often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleJoe8 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 8 hours ago, McNabbIsDone said: Y'know something just jumped out to me that I hadn't considered before. I'm not normally one to make excuses or anything . . . but what if that devastating head-shot by Clowney really did get into his head?? He suffered memory loss and I read somewhere that his wife was crying all over herself after the fact. If so it provides a pretty stark dividing line before & after the event. This is the only thing I can think of that makes any sense whatsoever. Something else to ponder . . . It’s not outlandish to claim the Clowney hit plays a part. In truth, I think all his injuries have played a part. Not that he was ever a burner, but since the ACL and back injuries, when he does run, he seems to be laboring more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochis_Calhoun Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said: It’s not outlandish to claim the Clowney hit plays a part. In truth, I think all his injuries have played a part. Not that he was ever a burner, but since the ACL and back injuries, when he does run, he seems to be laboring more. The problem I have with the injuries and Clowney hit theory is that a lot of the problems are Wentz holding onto the ball waiting for the DE or LB to hammer him into the turf. To me if the Clowney hit was the root of the problem, we'd be watching a guy just getting rid of it as quickly as possible to avoid any contact at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleJoe8 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, Cochis_Calhoun said: The problem I have with the injuries and Clowney hit theory is that a lot of the problems are Wentz holding onto the ball waiting for the DE or LB to hammer him into the turf. To me if the Clowney hit was the root of the problem, we'd be watching a guy just getting rid of it as quickly as possible to avoid any contact at all. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that’s the only problem. I think the injuries have robbed him of some athleticism. There’s a lot more to Wentz overall though. I don’t like pretending to know for sure what’s in another man’s head, but I don’t think it’s far fetched that a combination of Foles finishing what he started in 2017, almost doing it the next year, seeing statues and shrines made for Foles, and anonymous sources twice calling him out for leadership and and coachability qualities have had a serious mental effect on him which all leads to what we’re seeing today. It’s a shame, because the ability is there in him somewhere, but I don’t know he’ll ever harvest that ability on a consistent basis ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cochis_Calhoun Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Just now, EagleJoe8 said: Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that’s the only problem. I think the injuries have robbed him of some athleticism. There’s a lot more to Wentz overall though. I don’t like pretending to know for sure what’s in another man’s head, but I don’t think it’s far fetched that a combination of Foles finishing what he started in 2017, almost doing it the next year, seeing statues and shrines made for Foles, and anonymous sources twice calling him out for leadership and and coachability qualities have had a serious mental effect on him which all leads to what we’re seeing today. It’s a shame, because the ability is there in him somewhere, but I don’t know he’ll ever harvest that ability on a consistent basis ever again. I've asked it earlier this thread, why does Wentz 2017 get held up as his level whereas Foles 2013 and Superbowl run are dismissed as a mirage? You give Foles good protection and decent receivers and he can dismantle teams as well as anyone I've ever seen at QB for us. Wentz outside 2017 has been a middle of the road starting QB. but 2017 is classed as the norm and the other years as caveated outliers. This year without the line and the safety blanket of Ertz he's struggled mightily. I agree that the injuries have made him slower and you have to have coachability concerns with a guy who fumbles as much and has as clear mechanics issues as Wentz does in year 5, but maybe 2017 was Wentz '27-2' year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleJoe8 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said: I've asked it earlier this thread, why does Wentz 2017 get held up as his level whereas Foles 2013 and Superbowl run are dismissed as a mirage? You give Foles good protection and decent receivers and he can dismantle teams as well as anyone I've ever seen at QB for us. Wentz outside 2017 has been a middle of the road starting QB. but 2017 is classed as the norm and the other years as caveated outliers. This year without the line and the safety blanket of Ertz he's struggled mightily. I agree that the injuries have made him slower and you have to have coachability concerns with a guy who fumbles as much and has as clear mechanics issues as Wentz does in year 5, but maybe 2017 was Wentz '27-2' year. Unfortunately with Wentz, he got hurt early enough that we’ll never know what his career path would look like had everything I mentioned not happened. Thus far however, I don’t have much reason to think he wouldn’t or couldn’t continue on that path, or at least consistently playing like one of the better QBs in the game. With Foles, he has had numerous chances to solidify himself as "the guy”, but his career arc thus far has shown a pattern of some mind blowing performances followed by stretches of mediocrity. Remember the buzz after he erased Trubisky’s bad start in Atlanta and brought the Bears back to win? Then he again beats a good Tampa team led by Brady. The buzz starts again. The Bears are currently on a 4 game losing streak now, and the pattern is repeating itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeMak Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 On 11/12/2020 at 7:42 AM, brkmsn said: A person could actually argue that it may have been easier for a QB during Favre's time to exploit defenses with the pass than it is today based on defensive philosophy. But honestly, IMO, this has all been part of 1 big era, not two completely different ones. There have been two changes that have completely changed football and are exactly the reasons your statement is asinine. Seriously, do you say things this ridiculous to troll or do you really believe your own BS. First and foremost, DB’s cannot really play press man anymore. After Belichik played bully ball against the Colts with Manning in the playoffs, the league made that change. Perhaps you conveniently forgot about that one. The other change that has drastically changed defending the pass has been the "defenseless receiver” rule. In Favre’s era, the crossing routes and slants weren’t the gimmies that they are in today’s game. Those were a 50/50 ball as you had to have a receiver with the guts to take the hit and the ability to hang on to the ball. Then you throw in the expanded rules protecting the QB after the Carson Palmer injury (Steelers game), the league went full on 7 v 7 flag football. What’s interesting is that because Favre doesn’t think Wentz is the guy, you decided to compare Favre to Wentz. Shift the narrative away from the fact that really, Wentz best comparable is Winston. Who cares what Favre football career looks like as it pertains to Wentz? Wentz is a lousy QB. One of worst in the league at the moment. He is the JJAW of QB’s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetroLot Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Swoop said: I'm not saying you're wrong, but we are in a very different spot than we were 15+ years ago as a society and with social media. Everything is at everyone's finger tips now. I'm actually wondering the other way around. Would Donovan have gotten beaten to death in today's age? Your point is very good and it somehow slipped out of my tiny brain. Good post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeeMak Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 35 minutes ago, stinkfist said: I'm actually wondering the other way around. Would Donovan have gotten beaten to death in today's age? Your point is very good and it somehow slipped out of my tiny brain. Good post. Donovan likely would have had better stats in today’s game. He would have probably remained healthier, to your point. During the game, one of my friends texted me and asked me if I remember a sustained stretch of McNabb’s career in which he played as sorry as Wentz. I replied no, I can’t remember a stretch this bad. I haven’t bothered to go look at statistics, but I honestly cannot recall a stretch this bad for this long. Wentz is truly painful to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 14 hours ago, stinkfist said: Can we all stop and consider something? When Donovan McNabb was here, a lot of us questioned his leadership even while we liked him. I think that's a very, very, very fair assessment of Eagles' fans with Donovan here. People wondered if he could lead. My point is this, other than Hollis Thomas saying something to a guy in Delco or Ike Reese letting something slip once in a while, you didn't hear much from the Eagles themselves about Donovan being a leadership problem until Terrell Owens arrived and let's be honest, TO was a f'ing headcase. Christ, he was beautiful to watch though. Moving to my next point though... All we have heard about Carson Wentz is that there are problems behind the scenes. It has been non-stop. First was the Joe Santoquilito (I don't care how you spell it) story, then a follow up from Jimmy Kempski, then another shot across the bow from other sources, then we had several burner accounts nailing him, then another issue, then more ... IT NEVER STOPS with Carson Wentz. Doug says, "well that guy isn't at practices". OK Doug, why is someone always on Carson Wentz then man?!?! After a while, the smoke it obviously at least a little bit of fire. Am I the only one who has gone from dismissing this stuff to now really buying into Carson may be a f'ing headcase? Tell me I'm wrong and that these are all a string of random acts. With McNabb, there were things the fans saw themselves that made them question him. Whether we agree with the assessment or not many people didn't like that he would smile and be too loose, they wanted him to be more serious. He said that's what made him play better when he was loose and having a good time. When he would play poorly, he wouldn't throw an anger tantrum like the fans so they assumed he wasn't taking it serious. Many fans loved Jeff Garcia for being "fiery." They want to see a QB show emotion...then of course question their toughness if they show too much emotion. I think Donovan had a chip on his shoulder and wanted respect and he sometimes brought that view on himself the way he would talk. He played great in his early career and had some miraculous plays, played on a broken ankle and threw 4 TDs that one game, 4th and 26... I just don't think he matured as much as he could have. You bring up TO. He didn't like that people worried when TO got hurt, that they won playoff games previous years without him. He downplayed TO. What he should have done was the standard answer of he's a great player and we're going to miss him, but now it's next man up and we have to go out as a team... but he didn't like TO getting attention. TO rehabbed like crazy and was able to play in the Super Bowl which was incredible. Now, I see your point regarding Wentz about where there's smoke...but also with Philly media they are always looking to find some controversy. There's always something with this team from "unnamed sources." It can be hard to know what's true and what's speculation, especially when they're not winning. What can we see with our own eyes? Wentz and the offense have played worse since Reich and Flip left. Doug isn't a good play caller. Doug's unique trait was aggressiveness and now he goes for it on 4th down or goes for the 2 point conversion way more than any other teams. He has too many offensive assistants, who were brought in as "outside voices" and to get more creative play calls and the offense has not been better off. Wentz is not making basic throws, he's over throwing, throwing worm burners, forcing interceptions, leads the league in turnovers including fumbles lost, plays hero ball. He has said repeatedly that he will not change, that's his style. Doug has repeatedly said they preach accountability and ball control and that "Carson understands that..." yet Carson keeps doing it, and says he won't change. We also see that the idea of chemistry with your receivers and suffering from injuries is not an excuse. Wentz has played badly with all or most of his starters, and has played well with backups. He's completed passes to guys off the practice squad immediately or guys thrown into the lineup like Ward, Fulgham, Rogers, even some guy named Croom no one ever heard of caught a TD pass. There were these "reports" or rumors that Wentz doesn't check down to take something easy instead of forcing it, and that he has Lurie's ear and more influence than Doug. Reports that Doug was told to fire his OC and WR coach. Reports that Doug doesn't get to decide who is active for gameday that Howie wants "his guys" in there. Now reports that Wentz isn't coachable and doesn't want a QB coach being strict or holding him accountable. This week the new one is that Carson has sloppy practice habits that spill over into games. How much of that is true, how much is some disgruntled player or a reporter looking for attention making things up or taking comments out of context. That's up to the people that run the Eagles to figure out. If these are problems, they definitely know about it. So what is Lurie going to do about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleVA Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 12 hours ago, philafan4o8 said: They are hoping he turns it around so they are willing to give him every opportunity to save their jobs. They better hurry-up and find out that a turn it around ain't gonna happen, this doesn't mean he won't occasionally throw in an outstanding game, he may, but he won't be consistent in doing so, the team will consistently hover around .500 with Wentz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipples Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 12 hours ago, philafan4o8 said: I respectfully disagree. They won't bench Wentz for the same reason Mailata is not at LT. 1. $$$$$ 2. Doug and Howie hate to admit they are wrong. Benching your Franchise QB you paid over $100M for is a catastrophic move that would put both of them on the hotseat since Wentz is pretty much tied to both of their jobs. They are hoping he turns it around so they are willing to give him every opportunity to save their jobs. I’d argue the opposite actually. The best way to save their jobs would be to go with Hurts and hope he lights it up. Howie drafted him seemingly with Doug’s approval. They can jump off the sinking ship that is Wentz, and instead pump up their second round pick that they had the foresight of making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, nipples said: I’d argue the opposite actually. The best way to save their jobs would be to go with Hurts and hope he lights it up. Howie drafted him seemingly with Doug’s approval. They can jump off the sinking ship that is Wentz, and instead pump up their second round pick that they had the foresight of making. Nah. They don't need to do that to sell it to Lurie. They've already been blaming COVID, injuries, penalties on issues. Doug has already blamed Kelce for bad snaps, receivers and changes on the O line for Wentz struggles. Their sell is: the above plus Wentz showed some good things, Hurts was only a rookie without a real offseason due to COVID and Hurts was only supposed to be insurance for Wentz...so they'll continue with another year of developing him. Hurts only becomes an issue if Wentz gets hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QBhunter58 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 16 hours ago, Madriver said: Saying Hurts is not the answer does not necessarily=Wentz is the answer. They could both suck. If Hurts was capable, he's be the starter, IMO, and Wentz would've been benched by now. I disagree. I do not thing Hurts is the better option at starter, but if he were I also dont think he would start. You dont sit Wentz when you are paying him that much money (with no option for an out). Temporarily bench him? sure. But not in place of Hurts for an extended period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 We know that Wentz does not "suck." He has talent and has proven it with some excellent play on the field. The problems seem to be: 1. He's erratic and inconsistent. Some stretches or games he'll be great, others he's average or even bad. 2. His decision making. Hero ball, forcing throws, bad throws, fumbles and interceptions, etc. 3. His mechanics: footwork, reads, accuracy. 4. He's not being held accountable by the coaches and the "QB Factory" isn't developing him, he's regressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, NOTW said: We know that Wentz does not "suck." He has talent and has proven it with some excellent play on the field. The problems seem to be: 1. He's erratic and inconsistent. Some stretches or games he'll be great, others he's average or even bad. 2. His decision making. Hero ball, forcing throws, bad throws, fumbles and interceptions, etc. 3. His mechanics: footwork, reads, accuracy. 4. He's not being held accountable by the coaches and the "QB Factory" isn't developing him, he's regressing. He doesn't suck no we know that. But at this point I think we can say that he's not an elite QB and in fact he's not even a very good QB. The sample size now is too great to ignore. He's not as bad as he's shown this year, but he's not a top QB. Far from it in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 46 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said: He doesn't suck no we know that. But at this point I think we can say that he's not an elite QB and in fact he's not even a very good QB. The sample size now is too great to ignore. He's not as bad as he's shown this year, but he's not a top QB. Far from it in fact. I know, just some people have said he flat out sucks. I just wonder with all the coaching changes, the apparent lack of accountability and the play calling not always suiting his strengths if he were in a better situation would he perform better. The decisions he makes to be careless with the football are on him. And his accuracy and footwork are his to work on. But it seems that he plays better when he's on the move and able to create rather than stand in the pocket. I just wonder what impact better coaching would have on playing to his strengths without letting him go too "hero ball" all the time. Granted, he didn't try to do too much this last game and seemed to calm down. This is how he is though, up and down. People have wondered if there are too many voices in the offensive room with all these coaches. I'd like to see a traditional setup of OC and QB coach and the OC calling the plays and the HC managing the game and see how that effects Wentz. We know he's not going anywhere with his current contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madriver Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, NOTW said: We know that Wentz does not "suck." He has talent and has proven it with some excellent play on the field. The problems seem to be: 1. He's erratic and inconsistent. Some stretches or games he'll be great, others he's average or even bad. 2. His decision making. Hero ball, forcing throws, bad throws, fumbles and interceptions, etc. 3. His mechanics: footwork, reads, accuracy. 4. He's not being held accountable by the coaches and the "QB Factory" isn't developing him, he's regressing. He is average and his record proves it, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBENT87 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, NOTW said: We know that Wentz does not "suck." He has talent and has proven it with some excellent play on the field. The problems seem to be: 1. He's erratic and inconsistent. Some stretches or games he'll be great, others he's average or even bad. 2. His decision making. Hero ball, forcing throws, bad throws, fumbles and interceptions, etc. 3. His mechanics: footwork, reads, accuracy. 4. He's not being held accountable by the coaches and the "QB Factory" isn't developing him, he's regressing. Id argue against this point actually. The only consistency with Wentz is how erratic he is. If we have a consistently erratic guy as our franchise QB how long do we need to watch that until we're allowed to say he "sucks?" If this guy right now doesn't suck, I don't know what ever could. You just listed out 4 articulate points and a bunch of words - it's a lot easier to just say he sucks, in terms of sports talk. That's what every other fanbase besides ours is saying, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK_EaglesFan89 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 21 minutes ago, NOTW said: I just wonder with all the coaching changes, the apparent lack of accountability and the play calling not always suiting his strengths if he were in a better situation would he perform better. And I guess that's the big question. Both are the issue so who can go on to succeed without the other? At this point I'm not sure either can. I am out on wentz definitely though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTW Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 7 minutes ago, JBENT87 said: Id argue against this point actually. The only consistency with Wentz is how erratic he is. If we have a consistently erratic guy as our franchise QB how long do we need to watch that until we're allowed to say he "sucks?" If this guy right now doesn't suck, I don't know what ever could. You just listed out 4 articulate points and a bunch of words - it's a lot easier to just say he sucks, in terms of sports talk. That's what every other fanbase besides ours is saying, at least. He will have a series where he sucks, then a series where he is accurate and heroic and leads them on a TD drive. We saw him play much better when Reich and Flip were here. So he's got the ability and has regressed. Some of that is on him, some on the coaching. He's capable of better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McNabbIsDone Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 11 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said: Unfortunately with Wentz, he got hurt early enough that we’ll never know what his career path would look like had everything I mentioned not happened. Thus far however, I don’t have much reason to think he wouldn’t or couldn’t continue on that path, or at least consistently playing like one of the better QBs in the game. With Foles, he has had numerous chances to solidify himself as "the guy”, but his career arc thus far has shown a pattern of some mind blowing performances followed by stretches of mediocrity. Remember the buzz after he erased Trubisky’s bad start in Atlanta and brought the Bears back to win? Then he again beats a good Tampa team led by Brady. The buzz starts again. The Bears are currently on a 4 game losing streak now, and the pattern is repeating itself. Yes and again the poor play of his OL has handed him yet another injury last night. He got slammed to the ground and was in obvious pain. But the book on him will always read the same: is capable of great play but is inconsistent. yeahokfinewhatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philafan4o8 Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 4 hours ago, nipples said: I’d argue the opposite actually. The best way to save their jobs would be to go with Hurts and hope he lights it up. Howie drafted him seemingly with Doug’s approval. They can jump off the sinking ship that is Wentz, and instead pump up their second round pick that they had the foresight of making. I respect your opinion and I don't think it is wrong. My argument is that Howie and Doug essentially bet their jobs on Wentz after trading the ranch for him and giving him over $100M. To bench him, is admitting you were wrong and usually when you are wrong like this, it will cost you your job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleVA Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 3 hours ago, NOTW said: He will have a series where he sucks, then a series where he is accurate and heroic and leads them on a TD drive. We saw him play much better when Reich and Flip were here. So he's got the ability and has regressed. Some of that is on him, some on the coaching. He's capable of better. As I pointed out, he had accuracy issues with Reich and Flip also, he just happened to be extraordinarily good on 3rd downs that year, as far as accurate and heroic series, they have been few and far between the past two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleVA Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 4 hours ago, NOTW said: This is how he is though, up and down. What GM dishes out 100 million for an up and down QB? What coach says an up and down QB is their man? What fan supports an up and down QB? If he can't play consistently good then the Eagles need to start looking for a better option at the position, ASAP!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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