Carson Wentz discussion: no new topics about Wentz.

[EazyEaglez]

10 minutes ago, XoqTionR said:

What if Howie, Doug, and Lurie banked on Wentz. Tried to get everything he needed. Then injuries just happened, then Wentz failed. 

Feels like they went all in on Wentz and then at the last moment pulled some money out and made an insurance bet. That’s how it feels with the Hurts pick. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

7 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

I absolutely agree that drafting Hurts was dumb, but before this season PFF said the Eagles had a top ten line. It’s not the Eagles, fault they lost two starters before they even played a game. Howie threw money at and drafted receivers for Carson. He arguably has the best TE combination in football. They paid him 100 mil and most of it guaranteed. Other than drafting Hurts I do not buy this idea the Eagles tried to sabotage Wentz. With that being the case if Wentz didn’t finish the last three seasons injured I don’t think they would have drafted Hurts at all. Basically the last 4 years of Wentz career with the Eagles he’s been on the sidelines assuming he finishes this season benched. 

Oh and I don't disagree with that either. They have also babied Wentz a lot as have the fan base. But not giving him legit WR weapons and not addressing an ageing OL has been an issue. 

[EazyEaglez]

37 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Oh and I don't disagree with that either. They have also babied Wentz a lot as have the fan base. But not giving him legit WR weapons and not addressing an ageing OL has been an issue. 

But they did address the line. He has the best guard in the NFL. Too bad he’s on IR. They spent a 1st on a LT and groomed him for a year. Too bad he’s on IR. The tried to sign Jeffery, and Jackson. They also spent 4 draft picks on WRs in two years. They have addressed needs, unfortunately injuries and guys not panning out have cost it not to work. It’s not from a lack of trying though.

[Miami]

Maybe sitting and watching will do Wentz some good.  Has to be a morale booster for the team in the short term because Wentz was untouchable so to speak and now he's not.  That cloud over the team is no longer there.

 

[Kz!]

Wholesome:

 

[NOTW]

10 hours ago, XoqTionR said:

What if Howie, Doug, and Lurie banked on Wentz. Tried to get everything he needed. Then injuries just happened, then Wentz failed. 

Injuries to others are not the main problem with Wentz' performance.  He's played badly with all his starters as well.

[EaglesRocker97]

To be clear, I don't think Wentz is a bad guy, but I definitely think he has a big ego, which is not uncommon for guys drafted at the top of their class. The problem is that the organization has seemingly nurtured that ego to the point where Wentz's arrogance is holding him back from being self-aware, addressing his shortcomings, and reaching his potential. I still think a good deal of the blame for his failures rests with the coaching staff and FO from cultivating a sense of entitlement that might have always been there but that has been promoted and allowed to fester by Lurie & Co.'s recklessness. His regression is, at the minimum, the combined result of a bad attitude and bad organizational tactics.

[Kz!]

34 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

To be clear, I don't think Wentz is a bad guy, but I definitely think he has a big ego, which is not uncommon for guys drafted at the top of their class. The problem is that the organization has seemingly nurtured that ego to the point where Wentz's arrogance is holding him back from being self-aware, addressing his shortcomings, and reaching his potential. I still think a good deal of the blame for his failures rests with the coaching staff and FO from cultivating a sense of entitlement that might have always been there but that has been promoted and allowed to fester by Lurie & Co.'s recklessness. His regression is, at the minimum, the combined result of a bad attitude and bad organizational tactics.

Meh, his regression could simply be because of his torn ACL, a severe concussion, and the complete erosion of talent on the offensive line and at receiver. The "arrogance" and "entitlement" is all just speculation.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, Kz! said:

Meh, his regression could simply be because of his torn ACL, a severe concussion, and the complete erosion of talent on the offensive line and at receiver. The "arrogance" and "entitlement" is all just speculation.

I mean we could ask his Uncle who's on his forum? Or used to be on the old one at least. 

[EaglesRocker97]

1 hour ago, Kz! said:

Meh, his regression could simply be because of his torn ACL, a severe concussion, and the complete erosion of talent on the offensive line and at receiver. The "arrogance" and "entitlement" is all just speculation.

It's probably all of the above. It's a mixture of regression due to injury compounded by regression due to not being held accountable and lacking self-awareness. You can say that the latter is speculation, but that's mostly all that we can do as fans. I feel like there's been a strong impression of it for the last couple of years.

[Kz!]

16 minutes ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

It's probably all of the above. It's a mixture of regression due to injury compounded by regression due to not being held accountable and lacking self-awareness. You can say that the latter is speculation, but that's mostly all that we can do as fans. I feel like there's been a strong impression of it for the last couple of years.

Save for a couple of snippy sound bytes when answering questions from reporters (which tends to happen when you're dealing with the Philly media while losing), I've never gotten the impression that he's arrogant or entitled. Seems like a humble, classy dude to me. All just speculation of course.

[EaglesRocker97]

46 minutes ago, Kz! said:

Seems like a humble, classy dude to me.

Classy, sure. His on-field demeanor is a little questionable to me at times, but he pretty much says and does all the right things in public. Still, I think he might be a little too proud for his own good, and I think giving him a major contract before he truly proved himself for the long-term might've fueled any sense of entitlement that might have existed under the surface. He was the the unquestioned king of his teams in HS and college and a legend in NDSU. Maybe he still needed to be humbled a bit and this is an opportunity for it. The biggest problem was Pederson not holding him accountable for his play, but he's finally done that now. We'll see if it helps the situation.

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, Kz! said:

Save for a couple of snippy sound bytes when answering questions from reporters (which tends to happen when you're dealing with the Philly media while losing), I've never gotten the impression that he's arrogant or entitled. Seems like a humble, classy dude to me. All just speculation of course.

I think he's a good person and actually been mature dealing with adversity.

I think the "arrogance" ideas come from him saying he will not change how he plays - despite everyone in the nation (except a few TATErs) seeing he's having a horrible season, leading the league in turnovers and analysts pointing out he's holding the ball too long and making bad throws.  He says he will not change how he plays.  That, and the "report" that he did not like Flip being too strict and wanted a QB coach who does what he wants I think contribute to that idea, whether that's true or not.

[EazyEaglez]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:00 PM, T-1000 said:

This is quite possibly the stupidest, laziest, and most ill-informed excuse I have heard among the many being made for Wentz. First of all, if he had any mental toughness at all he would use it as motivation to get better. Second of all, I don't recall this being an issue for Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. I also don't remember these organizations being accused of sabotaging their QB's career.

The Packers used a 1st round pick on Jordan Love in 2020. They also used a 2nd round pick in 2008 on Brian Brohm.

The Patriots used a 3rd round pick on Ryan Mallet in 2011, a 2nd round pick in 2014 on Jimmy G, a 3rd round pick on Jacoby Brissett in 2016, and a 4th round pick on Jarrett Stidham in 2019.

NEXT.....

Yeah if Carson can’t mentally handle a rookie that wasn’t even competition for him then how is he gonna handle going Brady in the playoffs going if for 500 yards? I don’t see it.

[EazyEaglez]

15 hours ago, EaglesRocker97 said:

Classy, sure. His on-field demeanor is a little questionable to me at times, but he pretty much says and does all the right things in public. Still, I think he might be a little too proud for his own good, and I think giving him a major contract before he truly proved himself for the long-term might've fueled any sense of entitlement that might have existed under the surface. He was the the unquestioned king of his teams in HS and college and a legend in NDSU. Maybe he still needed to be humbled a bit and this is an opportunity for it. The biggest problem was Pederson not holding him accountable for his play, but he's finally done that now. We'll see if it helps the situation.

Even though Pederson claims he made this call I can’t help but think the people above him had a lot of say here too. Wentz probably should have been benched after that fumble against Dallas. If not there then giving up that safety. Giving the Browns 9 points I mean he’s basically fighting his own team at that point.

[GeorgeM37]

3 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Even though Pederson claims he made this call I can’t help but think the people above him had a lot of say here too. Wentz probably should have been benched after that fumble against Dallas. If not there then giving up that safety. Giving the Browns 9 points I mean he’s basically fighting his own team at that point.

Agreed. I mean its pretty much an unspoken rule that you just HAVE to beat the cowgirls.....but yeah, what happened with the Browns was just flat out embarrassing....

[jmac+djaxallday]

On 12/9/2020 at 1:46 AM, EazyEaglez said:

Feels like they went all in on Wentz and then at the last moment pulled some money out and made an insurance bet. That’s how it feels with the Hurts pick. 

I was convinced at the time that they were outsmarting themselves with that pick - that they either drafted him to be another Taysom Hill, or they wanted to groom him and then flip him.  Carson's injury history probably factored in as well.

In hindsight, I think a lot of us wanted to believe Carson was something he wasn't.  We wanted to believe it was the lack of receivers holding him back, or the injuries, or the coaching.  Last year over the final four games it looked like he was starting to maybe put it together - then he got hurt again.  This season has been such a disaster across the board that some people are still willing to cut him a pass.

But I always thought, at least until this season, that people severely exaggerated the lack of talent around him.  Alshon's a corpse now, but 2018, even 2019 Alshon still had a lot left in the tank.  Nelson Agholor looks like a real weapon when he's not playing with Wentz.  Even a guy like Golden Tate, who only played about five games with Wentz, never really clicked with him.

People that bemoan his supporting cast also tend to neglect the fact that he's played a lot of his career with two really good tight ends and like four Hall of Famers on the offensive line.  If we're going to pin some of his struggles this season on the offensive line, we need to also acknowledge the flip side of the coin - which is that the players around Wentz (and every other Eagles QB) likely made him look a lot better than he really was (even in 2017, I didn't think he started playing at an MVP level until the Washington MNF game).

Although I don't question his character or his work ethic, given the roller coaster of emotions he's been through in this town - between being seen initially as the savior, to temporarily becoming one of the most popular Eagles players ever during 2017, to the catastrophic injury, to suddenly having to watch another QB bask in the glory it seemed like he was destined for, to pressing the issue and never quite measuring up after that - I think he could really use a change of scenery and a fresh start elsewhere.

 

[EazyEaglez]

3 minutes ago, jmac+djaxallday said:

I was convinced at the time that they were outsmarting themselves with that pick - that they either drafted him to be another Taysom Hill, or they wanted to groom him and then flip him.  Carson's injury history probably factored in as well.

In hindsight, I think a lot of us wanted to believe Carson was something he wasn't.  We wanted to believe it was the lack of receivers holding him back, or the injuries, or the coaching.  Last year over the final four games it looked like he was starting to maybe put it together - then he got hurt again.  This season has been such a disaster across the board that some people are still willing to cut him a pass.

But I always thought, at least until this season, that people severely exaggerated the lack of talent around him.  Alshon's a corpse now, but 2018, even 2019 Alshon still had a lot left in the tank.  Nelson Agholor looks like a real weapon when he's not playing with Wentz.  Even a guy like Golden Tate, who only played about five games with Wentz, never really clicked with him.

People that bemoan his supporting cast also tend to neglect the fact that he's played a lot of his career with two really good tight ends and like four Hall of Famers on the offensive line.  If we're going to pin some of his struggles this season on the offensive line, we need to also acknowledge the flip side of the coin - which is that the players around Wentz (and every other Eagles QB) likely made him look a lot better than he really was (even in 2017, I didn't think he started playing at an MVP level until the Washington MNF game).

Although I don't question his character or his work ethic, given the roller coaster of emotions he's been through in this town - between being seen initially as the savior, to temporarily becoming one of the most popular Eagles players ever during 2017, to the catastrophic injury, to suddenly having to watch another QB bask in the glory it seemed like he was destined for, to pressing the issue and never quite measuring up after that - I think he could really use a change of scenery and a fresh start elsewhere.

 

A lot of the stuff from 2017 just wasn’t sustainable. The Eagles defense and run game were basically top five units. They got a lot of turnovers on defense and rarely turned it over on offense. Carson’s numbers on third down and in the red zone were off the charts good. So good in fact it’s unrealistic to expect that to have been the norm. In some ways I think him starting all those games as a rookie and the huge success his second year doomed him. He was never able to get the grooming he needed. He wasn’t given time to rebuild his mechanics and then he got hurt. He spent more of his time rehabbing and never enough time being groomed like he needed to be. Injuries and those bad mechanics that never were fixed have caught up to him. I don’t think he’s ever going to recover from this until he recognizes his game needs to change. Sadly I don’t think it happens in Philly. 

[EazyEaglez]

On 12/9/2020 at 2:44 PM, EaglesRocker97 said:

It's probably all of the above. It's a mixture of regression due to injury compounded by regression due to not being held accountable and lacking self-awareness. You can say that the latter is speculation, but that's mostly all that we can do as fans. I feel like there's been a strong impression of it for the last couple of years.

Honestly I think coaches tried to hold Carson accountable. We heard the story’s on how Deflip was very hard on him. He had too much success too fast doing it the way he always did it, but it physically cost him and he’s never been all that acceptable to change. Good people can be as stubborn as mules too. The Eagles saw Carson’s unwillingness to change and drafted an insurance policy. 

[NOTW]

Jason Kelce (who should be hired on staff somewhere immediately after retiring) on the situation.  Link to quotes and full press conference YouTube later (his portion is the first 15 minutes).

https://www.inquirer.com/eagles/philadelphia-eagles-jason-kelce-jalen-hurts-carson-wentz-doug-pederson-howie-roseman-20201209.html

Summary: "it's the whole team!"  He blames everyone: coaches, front office, players for a terrible offense.  He also says that drafting Hurts did not affect Wentz' confidence.

Quote

"Whenever you’re this bad it’s never just one person. It’s never just one position group. It’s never just players, coaches, or front office. It’s everybody,” Kelce said.

"This more comes down to a failure of pretty much every position — including the coaches — to facilitate a functioning offense,” Kelce said. "That’s the biggest story here.”

Did drafting Hurts mess with Wentz' head?

Quote

“[It’s] not that Jalen Hurts was picked, and there was some sort of internal battle and struggle going on [within] Carson Wentz … This is ultimately a culmination of a lot of failures on offense. I don’t know that the Jalen Hurts pick is a huge part of that,” Kelce said. "There’s always going to be competition. I don’t think Carson Wentz is the type of individual to let a situation dictate how he goes about his business.”

 

 

[EazyEaglez]

On 12/8/2020 at 8:41 PM, Swoop said:

CARSON WENTZ HAS PLAYED LIKE GARBAGE AND DESERVED TO BE BENCHED!

Having said that, what are you talking about? Ertz and Goedert have barely been on the field together and Ertz just got back. Sanders has been banged up, getting hardly any touches and dropping passes. Fulgham has done nothing but drop the ball for weeks. Reagor has been injured a number of times and has made one great catch and had one great punt return among his lazy routes and drops. Ward has been productive in what way? Fair catching punts? The team has been down starters on the OL since week one (Brooks and Dillard).

He has been on a team ravaged by injuries for years now.

Wow you would think the Eagles were the only team in football that had these types of  issues. 🙄 What if I told you Fulgham at one point was catching everything that was thrown his way? What if I told you the Eagles were mostly healthy the beginning of the year? What if I told you despite all of that Carson still struggled and looked like hot garbage? The bottom line is Carson deserved to be benched, and you guys sound like fools ripping a rookie before his first start. You don’t know what he’s going to do. Stop ripping the kid before he starts his first game and just let it play out. These built in excuses as to why everyone stinks, but Carson smells like roses is a joke.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

On 12/9/2020 at 1:41 AM, Swoop said:

CARSON WENTZ HAS PLAYED LIKE GARBAGE AND DESERVED TO BE BENCHED!

Having said that, what are you talking about? Ertz and Goedert have barely been on the field together and Ertz just got back. Sanders has been banged up, getting hardly any touches and dropping passes. Fulgham has done nothing but drop the ball for weeks. Reagor has been injured a number of times and has made one great catch and had one great punt return among his lazy routes and drops. Ward has been productive in what way? Fair catching punts? The team has been down starters on the OL since week one (Brooks and Dillard).

He has been on a team ravaged by injuries for years now.

Ertz and Goedert being on the field together is not the answer, we were the worst team in the league in 2 TE sets last year, the focus on TE's over the middle is why the offense struggles to sustain drives because it's easy to take away.  The relentless focus on TE's over the middle the last 4 years is probably why Wentz struggles to see guys shallow outside the hashes and can't hit screens reliably.

[GeorgeM37]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:47 PM, ManchesterEagle said:

 

Yeah Mcnabb pretty much always had a good to very good line that stayed healthy - bad comparison.

A better comparison would be Mcnabb to 2019 Wentz. Both had good lines. The difference was Mcnabb didn’t have TEs as good as Goedert and Ertz for most of his career. And back then DBS could mug receivers.

The point is Mcnabb produced with pretty much no weapons. Cunningham is a better example - his line was much worse. Genuine turnstiles.

Say it again.....I always thought L.J. Smith was very useless....

[Swoop]

15 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Wow you would think the Eagles were the only team in football that had these types of  issues. 🙄 What if I told you Fulgham at one point was catching everything that was thrown his way? What if I told you the Eagles were mostly healthy the beginning of the year? What if I told you despite all of that Carson still struggled and looked like hot garbage? The bottom line is Carson deserved to be benched, and you guys sound like fools ripping a rookie before his first start. You don’t know what he’s going to do. Stop ripping the kid before he starts his first game and just let it play out. These built in excuses as to why everyone stinks, but Carson smells like roses is a joke.

Seems you struggle to grasp the idea that pointing out that the rest of the team being terrible/injured is not absolving Wentz from blame, as well. Like I said, he's been terrible. The entire team has been terrible. It's possible for both to be true, but that seems too much for you to get a handle on. 

4 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

Ertz and Goedert being on the field together is not the answer, we were the worst team in the league in 2 TE sets last year, the focus on TE's over the middle is why the offense struggles to sustain drives because it's easy to take away.  The relentless focus on TE's over the middle the last 4 years is probably why Wentz struggles to see guys shallow outside the hashes and can't hit screens reliably.

I'm in agreement in regards to the two TE set, but when you have virtually no help at the WR position, you may need to try and get your two TEs involved

 

[PoconoDon]

1 hour ago, GeorgeM37 said:

Say it again.....I always thought L.J. Smith was very useless....

And you always thought correctly. He was useless.

He was also the weirdest football player I ever saw. Put him on a track and ask him to run a 40 and he was fine. Put a football in his hand and ask him to do it again, and his arms and legs stop working as he stumbles off balance down the field for no  reason whatsoever. Craziest stuff I ever saw. Dude could not run at all with a football in his hand.