Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, CaliEagle said:

Howie won't get another personnel job. I think that is part of the reason why Lurie can't can him. He doesn't want to kill Howie's dream. 

Why not? Keeping him sure kills mine.  

[wrestlevessel]

No one would hire Roseman if we fired him lol.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

15 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Dallas are in a hole because they still have to make a decision at QB. Washington are a badly run team so them being better than us right now doesn't scare me too much. NY are the ones to be worried about I agree. But hey look some major changes for this Eagles team and we can turn it around. 

First up Dallas don't have a decision to make at QB unless Dak is somehow permanently hobbled he'll get paid, the period since he went out has shown what a lie 'anyone could succeed with those weapons' was,  Washington's owner may be a clown but Ron Rivera isn't and they just beat the Steelers with their 3rd string QB in, their defensive front is as good and as young as there is in the NFL, they need to find a QB but can probably get a decent project to sit behind Smith for a year and still have a way better chance of winning the East than whatever we can put on the field next year barring a miracle draft.

[jsdarkstar]

Oline, Oline Oline. 

It's all about the Oline. Get that right and Wentz will play better.

[eglz1]

I'm fine with Howie being a contracts and finance guy, just not for the Eagles. I know Lurie and Howie aren't technically nepotism but it feels to me like nepotism.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said:

Oline, Oline Oline. 

It's all about the Oline. Get that right and Wentz will play better.

It really isn't, would a better o line help? Yes, but an elite QB would still be playing better behind this line, a better line isn't gong to improve his footwork or accuracy, and it isn't going to protect him for as long as he seems to need to make some reads.

To give a current example Chicago's line is god awful but no one's queueing up to give Trubisky or Foles a pass, and they haven't been as bad Wentz has.

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, jsdarkstar said:

Oline, Oline Oline. 

It's all about the Oline. Get that right and Wentz will play better.

He didn't play better when he had his full strength O line, and he's been having problems for 3 years ever since Reich and Flip left.  No doubt the O line needs upgrades but that's not the only issue.

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, eglz1 said:

I'm fine with Howie being a contracts and finance guy, just not for the Eagles. I know Lurie and Howie aren't technically nepotism but it feels to me like nepotism.

He demoted Howie and gave Chip control.  They brought in Joe Douglas to run personnel.  I don't think it's like many people say, Lurie also got rid of his previous long time friend Joe Banner.  

When Lurie sees the need to make a change, he will make it.  The national conversation this year has been how the Eagles have not drafted well.  And Lurie is looking at a cap that pays older guys to be on IR, young replacements not getting the job done and cap hell in 2021 when Howie was supposed to be a genius in that area.  When they have to purge talent to get under the cap, they will need to draft replacements that can play right away.

Hopefully Lurie has Howie on the hot seat.

[CaliEagle]

2 hours ago, jsdarkstar said:

Oline, Oline Oline. 

It's all about the Oline. Get that right and Wentz will play better.

They need to get the OL fixed. No doubt. But, Wentz is holding the ball 4.88 seconds and that is too long. That's on him.

[toughfighter83]

1 minute ago, NOTW said:

He demoted Howie and gave Chip control.  They brought in Joe Douglas to run personnel.  I don't think it's like many people say, Lurie also got rid of his previous long time friend Joe Banner.  

When Lurie sees the need to make a change, he will make it.  The national conversation this year has been how the Eagles have not drafted well.  And Lurie is looking at a cap that pays older guys to be on IR, young replacements not getting the job done and cap hell in 2021 when Howie was supposed to be a genius in that area.  When they have to purge talent to get under the cap, they will need to draft replacements that can play right away.

Hopefully Lurie has Howie on the hot seat.

douglas should have been the full gm and not howie.

[CaliEagle]

If the Eagles can Doug, the Bills OC might be an interesting candidate. I like the way their offense is set up with quick throws and movement.  I don't want a recycled head coach. I'd rather them hire a coordinator who has never been a HC.

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, toughfighter83 said:

douglas should have been the full gm and not howie.

Wrong. 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Wrong. 

I like the approach though, it's just in this case the individual didn't work out.  If Lurie won't fire Howie and he wants to put him back into a Joe Banner role (even with a "promotion" to a new fancy title) and bring in someone to run personnel then that is an alternative to getting rid of Howie that "could" work if Howie truly stays out of the draft decisions and other personnel.

Get someone from a team that drafts well.  But as we've said before, perhaps the best candidates might not take the job with Howie still there, waiting to take over again.  

[CaliEagle]

19 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Why not? Keeping him sure kills mine.  

Lurie kicked us off the boards. So, our dreams are not as important.

[EagleJoe8]

39 minutes ago, NOTW said:

I like the approach though, it's just in this case the individual didn't work out.  If Lurie won't fire Howie and he wants to put him back into a Joe Banner role (even with a "promotion" to a new fancy title) and bring in someone to run personnel then that is an alternative to getting rid of Howie that "could" work if Howie truly stays out of the draft decisions and other personnel.

Get someone from a team that drafts well.  But as we've said before, perhaps the best candidates might not take the job with Howie still there, waiting to take over again.  

Oh I like the attempt as well. I think our mess is on both Howie and Douglas. Right now we need a totally new approach. The next hire may prove wrong also, but we know what’s going on is for sure wrong also. 

[NOTW]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:37 AM, NOTW said:

Step 1: Fire Howie. 

No, don't keep him to do contracts.  Then they can just fire the next GM and hand it back to Howie.  Nope, get him out of the organization.

There are other teams in the league with success managing the cap, negotiating contracts and making trades with other teams.  Howie USED to be good at those, but then he started making bad trades, bad contract extensions that have hurt the cap and his terrible drafting hurts the team more than his cap managements helps.  He has absolutely no business being over the draft which is the primary way to build the team.  He succeeded at buying a championship with some good free agent and trade moves and they were able to catch lightning in a bottle with Foles playing well and the team rallying around the underdog mantra.

Then they got cocky and kept believing their own hype.  The team is not hungry anymore.  Some guys are lazy, some are entitled, some are just collecting a paycheck.  It stands out when you see young guys like Sanders, Ward, Goedert giving a lot of effort and making plays.  I will credit Brandon Graham, he gave a lot of effort yesterday and made plays.  Kelce always gives 100% too.  But overall the team isn't hungry anymore.  Even Lane Johnson was getting beat a lot yesterday and has had injury concerns.  

Time for change and it starts with the GM.  

Step 2: Get voices outside the organization to help you pick a proper GM.

They had the right idea hiring Joe Douglas, it just didn't work out but keep that philosophy:  look at guys from successful organizations that draft well and have a solid philosophy.  Then EVERYTHING you do is filtered through that philosophy.  Hiring coaches, scouts, personnel evaluators, the players you draft and sign and trade for, the conditioning, the way you practice, the scheme, the play calling, everything.  They have to stop changing their identity based on who the coach is.  Yes, they should be innovative and continue to grow and evolve but within the guidelines of the philosophy.  For example, you can value building both lines and having strong defense but still adapt scheme and players to the changing landscape of the NFL.

Step 3: Coaches

A new GM might want to clean house.  But I would say Doug has earned at least another year or two to work within a new structure.  Doug needs to have an OC to call plays and he can game manage and be aggressive.  You want to keep Fipp, Stoutland and probably Duce.  Schwartz' contract is up and he'll be gone anyway so a new DC can hire new coaches.  I'd also be ok if a new GM wanted Doug gone to start over.

Step 4: Purge the personnel department

Blow it up, rebuild it.  Bring in staff from other teams.  They need better scouts and a new structure where the GM has final say on the draft but is someone knowledgeable to make those decisions, and a solid team building their draft board. Utilizing analytics is great but you need a balance of "the football guy" who just knows what works and doesn't.  No team drafts perfect and there are always hits and misses but this team cannot draft.  The only good draft picks they seem to make are the guys that everyone including fans know they're going to be a good player. Case in point, they draft Sanders who everyone thought would be a good RB and they draft JJAW in the same round while passing on other better WR options.

Step 5: Purge the roster

Salary cap issues, injuries, and age aside, complacency and laziness have also set in.  They need to start this now by having a fire sale before the trade deadline.  Collect draft picks, dump salaries and at the end of the season release players or let walk in free agency and get those comp picks.  People will debate Wentz but contract wise you have to keep him for now.  You may want to bench him and see what you have in Hurts but the next GM will decide the QB position for the future.

You probably keep most rookies and 2nd year players to see how they do in camp next year (but JJAW should be cut like yesterday).  Their contracts are not a problem anyway and can always be cut if better players are selected next season.  But of the core guys you keep:

Offense:  Sanders, Scott, Goedert, Reagor, Ward, Kelce, Lane.  You need replacements for Kelce and Lane to develop as they don't have as much time left.  

Defense: Slay, Hargrave...honestly they do have to keep some defenders just to have bodies but there's not much else worth mentioning.  Need a total rebuild of the defense.  Cox and Graham have been good but salary and age means they have to go. 

Step 6: Medical and conditioning

They hired new directors over these areas and injuries are just as much a problem as before.  They need to really rethink this and analyze it.  Are they scouting players with injury history or poor conditioning or from "weak" conferences with "soft" players?  Revisit the Chip Kelly era where despite anything else you didn't like about him the team was healthy.  Players said they felt well conditioned as the season went on.  Find what was working well and implement major changes.  The injuries are just at an absurd level at this point.

 

Bump

[UK_EaglesFan89]

So the rebuild begins? Except I guess it really doesn't begin because Doug is coming back and Howie is very likely coming back. So what is the rebuild going to look like?

[mjkvol]

2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

So the rebuild begins? Except I guess it really doesn't begin because Doug is coming back and Howie is very likely coming back. So what is the rebuild going to look like?

As long as Roseman remains, it will look not a whole lot different than it has the last couple of years.        I believe a housecleaning is in order and the only way to really get this properly turned around, but is appears Lurie will take the band aid approach, which never - NEVER - works.

We can expect to see 'adjustments' in the personnel department and discussions about play calling, but this avoids the issue, which is that good organizations don't "work around" these kinds of weaknesses of GM's and coaches, they go and get someone else to do the job.           

The fact that Lurie is staying the course means it will be another season at least before we can expect the rebuild to begin in earnest.            The most dreadful error he can make is actually believing this team is some minor adjustments away from being a championship contender or even a solid playoff team.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

So the rebuild begins? Except I guess it really doesn't begin because Doug is coming back and Howie is very likely coming back. So what is the rebuild going to look like?

If Doug and Howie remain, it looks, just like the last few disjointed years...except that we are back looking for the most key position again.  No QB = BIG problem.

[wyote]

Rebuild is happening no matter who is where or who likes it or who doesn't. There are too many old guys, too many fat salaries. Lot of veterans will be out the door. The week 1 roster next year will have a lot of guys who weren't starting week 1 this year, probably including the QB, LT, and TE. Whoever replaces Schwartz is unlikely to have the same loyalty to Schwartz's guys on defense. Next year we'll find out if Hurts has a chance to be the next Russell Wilson or what, and 8-8 would be a pretty good result. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, mjkvol said:

As long as Roseman remains, it will look not a whole lot different than it has the last couple of years.        I believe a housecleaning is in order and the only way to really get this properly turned around, but is appears Lurie will take the band aid approach, which never - NEVER - works.

 

1 hour ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

If Doug and Howie remain, it looks, just like the last few disjointed years...except that we are back looking for the most key position again.  No QB = BIG problem.

Agreed and agreed. This is not going to be the rebuild that we all hoped and that this team needs. It is going to be largely the same rubbish because that's what it's been for the last few years now. 

[Infam]

7 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

 

Agreed and agreed. This is not going to be the rebuild that we all hoped and that this team needs. It is going to be largely the same rubbish because that's what it's been for the last few years now. 

I don't see it that way. A good trade and a good draft and we are fixed. 

[mjkvol]

24 minutes ago, Infam said:

I don't see it that way. A good trade and a good draft and we are fixed. 

1.    This team is two solid off seasons from being close to "fixed".

2.    It will require a real GM who is equipped to handle such a job, and the Eagles don't currently have one of those, and they apparently won't anytime soon.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

36 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

 

Agreed and agreed. This is not going to be the rebuild that we all hoped and that this team needs. It is going to be largely the same rubbish because that's what it's been for the last few years now. 

Personally, I think Lurie and Doug DON'T get on the same page and he walks.  I think that is good, because I have zero faith in him to lead a rebuild.  We may as well get it over with.

[Maga301]

3 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Personally, I think Lurie and Doug DON'T get on the same page and he walks.  I think that is good, because I have zero faith in him to lead a rebuild.  We may as well get it over with.

Like I'ved said, from last year having to fire Groh and QB's coach after saying they would be back. I don't know why Doug would even want to come back due to the poor drafting that Howie has done and the fact that Howie has final say on personnel. Don't get me wrong, Doug has failed as a HC but Howie has not made it easy for him or Schwartz IMO. I think that's another reason Doug holds onto the play calling because it's a way to say FU to Howie...…it's almost like Doug and Howie just haven't jelled at all.