Rebuilding the team - discuss the future of the Eagles (orig post Sept 2020)

[brkmsn]

13 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

The low 20s thing isn't such an issue. Good teams that are run well and do things right tend to pick in that range often and they still find talent.

What teams would you list as your "good teams" examples?

[Cochis_Calhoun]

On 10/24/2020 at 4:35 PM, ManchesterEagle said:

 

You are both very well reasoned and usually balanced posters, but on the flip side there are those who cannot see that Howie has done any good at all and don't recognise that a lot of teams miss badly on draft picks. Howie's 2017 draft was awful. His 2018 draft was very good. 

It may well be time to move on. I'm still annoyed about the Hurts pick when there was so much needed defensive talent available. Fulton in particular made all the sense in the world. As I've said consistently they have ignored the D early in drafts for too long now and it's starting to catch-up with them.

I'm not against moving on from Howie. As for the injuries. I just don't know. They keep changing programmes, but the injury luck is horrendous. Obviously players like Jackson/Peters are understandable ones given age etc. But the bad luck is extreme.

This is nonsense, he missed on pro bowl level starters in positions of glaring need trading back then traded back up to draft a back up tight end,  drafted a corner who looks good stood in the NFL's most awful secondary, a rotational DE who actually does look good and like he might stick, a back up guard who is getting games because we're down to PS fodder and walk ons, and a late round flyer that literally 80% of the teams in the league were waiting to take a flyer on that we had to stash on IR for 2 years Mailata.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, brkmsn said:

What teams would you list as your "good teams" examples?

Seattle the last several years. Pittsburgh for sure. Baltimore. I think Kansas overall have done a good job at drafting whilst mostly being competitive. 

[pallidrone]

1 hour ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

This is nonsense, he missed on pro bowl level starters in positions of glaring need trading back then traded back up to draft a back up tight end,  drafted a corner who looks good stood in the NFL's most awful secondary, a rotational DE who actually does look good and like he might stick, a back up guard who is getting games because we're down to PS fodder and walk ons, and a late round flyer that literally 80% of the teams in the league were waiting to take a flyer on that we had to stash on IR for 2 years Mailata.

There are 3 pro bowl players between Lamar Jackson and Dallas Goedert from the 2018 draft

Nick Chubb - RB -> Not a glaring need in 2018 (Jay Ajayi, Darren Sproles, Corey Clement)

Courtland Sutton - WR -> Not a glaring need in 2018 (Jeffrey, Mike Wallace, Agholar, Hollins)

Darius Leonard - LB -> Maybe? Would he even be the same player on a team whose defense does not emphasis LBs?

It is easy to look at these now and say needed Chubb and Sutton, but at the time it would have been a luxury, just like Goedert. The only argument you could make would have been for Leonard, but again I dont think he would be the same player here as he is in Indy because he does not fit the scheme that we run here.

[toughfighter83]

38 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Seattle the last several years. Pittsburgh for sure. Baltimore. I think Kansas overall have done a good job at drafting whilst mostly being competitive. 

alot of it has to do with them bringing in developed players and staying healthy, with us for some reason every good player we bring in young or old cant stay healthy. that's reason why we won the sb because the fas we brought in smith, blount, long, robinson, darby, alshon(that one year) stayed healthy.

that falls on the gm and coaching staff.

[Penn7980]

40 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Seattle the last several years. Pittsburgh for sure. Baltimore. I think Kansas overall have done a good job at drafting whilst mostly being competitive. 

Still puzzled by the talent level at KC.  AR had all the power when he was with the team.  Yet his drafts were nothing special.  Early years at KC, it was about the same story.  Then all in a sudden, he built an offense with players and scheme that beat everyone.  Did the light bulb come on and a scheme emerged when certain kind of players were available to him? 

[pallidrone]

1 hour ago, Penn7980 said:

Still puzzled by the talent level at KC.  AR had all the power when he was with the team.  Yet his drafts were nothing special.  Early years at KC, it was about the same story.  Then all in a sudden, he built an offense with players and scheme that beat everyone.  Did the light bulb come on and a scheme emerged when certain kind of players were available to him? 

It is because they found their QB.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

2 hours ago, Penn7980 said:

Did the light bulb come on and a scheme emerged when certain kind of players were available to him?

I think probably yes. I think he probably stumbled a little across a scheme that just blew teams away. I mean who knew that Mahomes was going to be this special?

[ManchesterEagle]

4 hours ago, Penn7980 said:

Still puzzled by the talent level at KC.  AR had all the power when he was with the team.  Yet his drafts were nothing special.  Early years at KC, it was about the same story.  Then all in a sudden, he built an offense with players and scheme that beat everyone.  Did the light bulb come on and a scheme emerged when certain kind of players were available to him? 

 

3 hours ago, pallidrone said:

It is because they found their QB.

 

2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think probably yes. I think he probably stumbled a little across a scheme that just blew teams away. I mean who knew that Mahomes was going to be this special?

Reid was great when he was with us. His main fault was not getting McNabb more weapons in the early years, but to be honest he was really unlucky not to win at least one Super Bowl (New England might have cheated in particular). He also recognised the importance of investing in the Defense.

But he's struck gold with Mahomes. McNabb was very good. Mahomes is a generational talent.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

57 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

But he's struck gold with Mahomes. McNabb was very good. Mahomes is a generational talent.

You can say that again. 

[Road to Victory]

8 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

This is nonsense, he missed on pro bowl level starters in positions of glaring need trading back then traded back up to draft a back up tight end,  drafted a corner who looks good stood in the NFL's most awful secondary, a rotational DE who actually does look good and like he might stick, a back up guard who is getting games because we're down to PS fodder and walk ons, and a late round flyer that literally 80% of the teams in the league were waiting to take a flyer on that we had to stash on IR for 2 years Mailata.

I hope they didn’t draft Goedert to stick it to the Cowboys. While it was awesome, it’s not a reason to draft someone. I’m sure the Cowboys felt like they stuck it to us when they drafted CD Lamb (who’s very good) but they already had 2 good WR’s and probably should’ve drafted defense. Now they’re paying the price and have the worst defense in the league. 

[NOTW]

2 hours ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

 

Reid was great when he was with us. His main fault was not getting McNabb more weapons in the early years, but to be honest he was really unlucky not to win at least one Super Bowl (New England might have cheated in particular). He also recognised the importance of investing in the Defense.

But he's struck gold with Mahomes. McNabb was very good. Mahomes is a generational talent.

Sounds like revisionist history. Reid had some horrible defensive drafts after the SB and especially toward the end of his tenure.

[brkmsn]

8 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Seattle the last several years. Pittsburgh for sure. Baltimore. I think Kansas overall have done a good job at drafting whilst mostly being competitive. 

I think you need to take a closer look at some of Seattle's drafts. I get it, they hit big time on DK Metcalf, but they have a ton of early misses. Pittsburgh hasn't been to the playoffs since 2017. The Ravens are a good team, but a lot of their key players were not drafted by them. They have made a few nice picks lately. KC seems to have drafted well.

[brkmsn]

10 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

This is nonsense, he missed on pro bowl level starters in positions of glaring need trading back then traded back up to draft a back up tight end,  drafted a corner who looks good stood in the NFL's most awful secondary, a rotational DE who actually does look good and like he might stick, a back up guard who is getting games because we're down to PS fodder and walk ons, and a late round flyer that literally 80% of the teams in the league were waiting to take a flyer on that we had to stash on IR for 2 years Mailata.

Positions of glaring need in a year everybody on the boards was saying BPA? I'm calling BS. Probably our biggest position of need was TE anyway since we let Celek go for cap reasons and lost Trey Burton to a big FA contract. We were coming off a Super Bowl win and still had high hopes for Darby and S. Jones, but needed a slot CB to replace P. Robinson. Pryor stepped in nicely late last year and at the very least is expected to be able to add depth at RG, LG, RT, and LT. He may not ever blossom into a true starter, but he is a valuable backup that is still learning and getting better. I don't even know why you're trying to downplay the Mailata pick. It was a 7th rd pick, which in most cases is PS material at best. Even having no football experience at all, he showed so much talent in his rookie preseason that we couldn't expose him by trying to get him on the PS. Last year, we just had too many injuries early and din't have the IR rules we have this year, so we put him on IR with the back "injury." The worst part about placing a player on IR is they can't practice with the team. Then we lost this year's preseason along with a condensed OTA season and really weren't sure where he was at until we were forced to throw him out there. No matter how you try to spin this, it was a great pick by the Eagles. Overall, it was a very good draft and all the players we picked are still on the team and are being asked to play large roles this year. 

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, NOTW said:

Sounds like revisionist history. Reid had some horrible defensive drafts after the SB and especially toward the end of his tenure.

I can't think of a decent defensive pick between Trent Cole and Fletcher Cox.

 

Edit: Graham was a decent pick.

 

[Bwestbrook36]

46 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I can't think of a decent defensive pick between Trent Cole and Fletcher Cox.

 

Edit: Graham was a decent pick.

 

After about 5 years he became a solid pick. Even then meh

[UK_EaglesFan89]

7 hours ago, brkmsn said:

I think you need to take a closer look at some of Seattle's drafts. I get it, they hit big time on DK Metcalf, but they have a ton of early misses. Pittsburgh hasn't been to the playoffs since 2017. The Ravens are a good team, but a lot of their key players were not drafted by them. They have made a few nice picks lately. KC seems to have drafted well.

They've all drafted better than us though... I know you can't hit on all picks but Howie just isn't good in the draft at all. He rarely hits on picks regardless of the round. 

[wyote]

6 hours ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

After about 5 years he became a solid pick. Even then meh

I'll take 11 mehs please. 

 

[NOTW]

12 hours ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I can't think of a decent defensive pick between Trent Cole and Fletcher Cox.

 

Edit: Graham was a decent pick.

 

They had good defensive picks early.  That 2002 draft with Lito, Mike Lewis, Sheldon Brown (and Westbrook) was amazing. Then most draft years were awful on defense.  In 2005 he got Herremans and Cole in the 5th round which were good picks.  They didn't hit on early rounds for too long and it showed in the weakening of the roster as older vets (from the previous regime) phased out.  That's what's happening now.  

When you look at the Eagles draft history after that 2002 draft, there are a couple good picks but overall when you scroll the list it's downright embarrassing.  

[Cochis_Calhoun]

20 hours ago, pallidrone said:

It is because they found their QB.

The offense was putting up numbers with Alex Smith at QB,  Mahomes took it to another level, but Reid's offense is the bedrock rather than the other way around.

[EagleJoe8]

7 minutes ago, NOTW said:

They had good defensive picks early.  That 2002 draft with Lito, Mike Lewis, Sheldon Brown (and Westbrook) was amazing. Then most draft years were awful on defense.  In 2005 he got Herremans and Cole in the 5th round which were good picks.  They didn't hit on early rounds for too long and it showed in the weakening of the roster as older vets (from the previous regime) phased out.  That's what's happening now.  

When you look at the Eagles draft history after that 2002 draft, there are a couple good picks but overall when you scroll the list it's downright embarrassing.  

And not much has changed sadly. 

[QBhunter58]

1 hour ago, NOTW said:

They had good defensive picks early.  That 2002 draft with Lito, Mike Lewis, Sheldon Brown (and Westbrook) was amazing. Then most draft years were awful on defense.  In 2005 he got Herremans and Cole in the 5th round which were good picks.  They didn't hit on early rounds for too long and it showed in the weakening of the roster as older vets (from the previous regime) phased out.  That's what's happening now.  

When you look at the Eagles draft history after that 2002 draft, there are a couple good picks but overall when you scroll the list it's downright embarrassing.  

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi/draft.htm

Yeah it is not awful for the first half of his tenure, and then it quickly goes downhill.

[ManchesterEagle]

15 hours ago, brkmsn said:

I think you need to take a closer look at some of Seattle's drafts. I get it, they hit big time on DK Metcalf, but they have a ton of early misses. Pittsburgh hasn't been to the playoffs since 2017. The Ravens are a good team, but a lot of their key players were not drafted by them. They have made a few nice picks lately. KC seems to have drafted well.

 

7 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

They've all drafted better than us though... I know you can't hit on all picks but Howie just isn't good in the draft at all. He rarely hits on picks regardless of the round. 

I’m not sure Seattle has drafted better than us. Go back and look at their 2016-2018 drafts. How many good players can you see there?

Seattle doesn’t have many good players. They basically have 2 stud receivers and Carson. Their O-Line has improved from awful to average. Their D is awful despite more investment.

Russell Wilson is carrying that team. Their drafts haven’t been any better.

[NOTW]

Blow it up. It's only going to get worse. 

[Road to Victory]

39 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Blow it up. It's only going to get worse. 

It’s going to be really bad next year. They are going to have to gut this team to get under the cap. 
 

I don’t even know where to start with a rebuild, they basically need help at every position except RB, TE and DT. With no cap space and future cuts looming, they will need to fill these positions through the draft which Howie hasn’t been able to do.