EMB Blog: 2021 Offseason

[UK Eagle]

2 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Yup, similar point to what I just posted.  It makes NO SENSE to give up picks that you need to build this team.  They are rebuilding.  You can't rebuild if you trade the meat of your picks away.  

One of the reasons we are here where we are is because they have not had those mid-round picks as of late.  In the past few drafts they've had numerous times where they sat idle while upwards of 80 picks are made between picks.  There's a huge talent gap when you don't pick for that long.  To trade away the 3rds they have would be so dumb.  I can trading one of them to bump up but no way am I trading 2. 

Even though the Eagles history in the 2nd and 3rd rounds is not great, you still need to make picks there.

Crikey.  We need to see what will happen with Ertz too.

[RLC]

7 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Frankly, I'd love to move from 12 to 28 for a 2022 1st and something else.   That's a move from #6 all the way back to the very end of the 1st round, which sounds terrible, but here's why I like it

I'm with you here. If a QB is on the board, I'm calling the Bears and asking for #12 for #20 + 2022 1st rounder. You can still get a very good player at 20 (Paye, Newsome, Parsons, JOK).

[Original Sin]

ESPN's Jordan Raanan reports the "prevailing thought" is that the Giants pick an Alabama WR (DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle) with the No. 11 pick.

[Iggles_Phan]

17 minutes ago, purplefiggy said:

You bring up a really interesting point. We know so little about these guys, and while the Eagles don’t know a whole lot either, they sure have access to more information than we do.

This is always true... and yet there are people here more capable of making the right picks than Howie Roseman, even with the limited information.

There is a fallacy that because they have more information to work through that they are in a better position to make the picks.  That's just not true.   They have more information, yes.  They do not always use that extra information to make a better selection.    

 

They had more information than I did at the WR position last year.   But, all the way up to the draft, including draft night, myself and a few others (limited) were telling people that Jefferson was the guy to grab at #21.  The Eagles used their extra information to convince themselves that they knew better.   And the Vikings, who have the same opportunity to make a decision came to the polar opposite conclusion and were laughing at the Eagles taking Reagor over Jefferson.   Well, they were right, and the Eagles were dead wrong.  And who knows what happens last year if Jefferson were on this team rather than Reagor.   So, yes, the Eagles have more information.  But, more information alone does not necessitate a better outcome.  In fact, recent Eagles' history would lead one to consider that there's no correlation between 'more information' and 'better evaluation'.  

[ToastJenkins]

40 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

Schrager has eagles moving up

 

Eagles

(via Lions)

TRADE

Patrick Surtain II

Alabama · CB

The Lions want to trade back. Badly. Our first massive trade of the evening comes here. I get the feeling the Eagles want one of the top two CBs, and with whispers out there that their NFC East rivals are also in that market, Howie Roseman continues to wheel and deal. In this case, the Philly GM has to give up just the 12th overall pick and a pair of third-rounders to move up five spots and get Surtain

Would be a moronic trade

[ToastJenkins]

2 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

ESPN's Jordan Raanan reports the "prevailing thought" is that the Giants pick an Alabama WR (DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle) with the No. 11 pick.

Not gettlemans MO

likely misinformation

[Iggles_Phan]

22 minutes ago, greend said:

Eagles do have more info than us, the same can be said for the talking heads (mostly) trouble is even with that info Howie makes bad picks (mostly)

 

20 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

One frustrating thing on Paye...spending #12 overall on a DE who will never be as good as either starter for WFT.

Only one? 

[Iggles_Phan]

15 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

Probably the same as when he traded up for BG when you had Earl Thomas sitting there.  

I know, I know, BG is an Eagles legend and proved that he was a "good" pick but before Malcolm Jenkins came around the Eagles struck out on every safety they brought in.  There's no telling how BG or Earl Thomas's career paths would have gone had the Eagles taken Thomas instead.

At the time and in the moment, that was one of the biggest WTF moments for me.  

Well, I was very happy when they did it.   I would not be happy with Paye at 12, and definitely not with a trade up.

[austinfan]

7 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

And who knows what happens last year if Jefferson were on this team rather than Reagor. 

Nothing except Jefferson has a middlin' year and Reagor lights it up in Minnesota and everyone here whines they should have taken Reagor. 😝

Jefferson would have had a few games like Fulgham, then teams would have pressed him with help on top and he would have disappeared as they forced other Eagle receivers to beat them.

[pallidrone]

13 minutes ago, greend said:

My final draft (stop clapping)

Why would the Jets give up a 2022 and 2023 first rounder? That is way too much capital for only moving 11 picks. If the move it would be for the 23rd and probably the 34st but they would require a 5th or 6th back as well.

[purplefiggy]

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

This is always true... and yet there are people here more capable of making the right picks than Howie Roseman, even with the limited information.

There is a fallacy that because they have more information to work through that they are in a better position to make the picks.  That's just not true.   They have more information, yes.  They do not always use that extra information to make a better selection.    

 

They had more information than I did at the WR position last year.   But, all the way up to the draft, including draft night, myself and a few others (limited) were telling people that Jefferson was the guy to grab at #21.  The Eagles used their extra information to convince themselves that they knew better.   And the Vikings, who have the same opportunity to make a decision came to the polar opposite conclusion and were laughing at the Eagles taking Reagor over Jefferson.   Well, they were right, and the Eagles were dead wrong.  And who knows what happens last year if Jefferson were on this team rather than Reagor.   So, yes, the Eagles have more information.  But, more information alone does not necessitate a better outcome.  In fact, recent Eagles' history would lead one to consider that there's no correlation between 'more information' and 'better evaluation'.  

Yeah, not what I was thinking really - just how complex these decisions are and how much has to come together for a good outcome. 
 

But yeah, I do think more often the "obvious” choice would be better than the "outthinking” that the Eagles do. 

[bpac55]

Just now, Original Sin said:

ESPN's Jordan Raanan reports the "prevailing thought" is that the Giants pick an Alabama WR (DeVonta Smith or Jaylen Waddle) with the No. 11 pick.

I know everyone on here loves to say don't worry about what other teams do but if you don't get frustrated watching our rivals add talent, or at least be linked to wanting to add at positions we seem to be "OK with" or fail to improve then I don't know what to tell you.

In 2021 and beyond, you're winning in the NFL by outscoring your opponent, not stopping them.  It's why I was hesitant to say go CB at 12.

NYG-  Sterling Shepard, Evan Ingram, Darius Slayton, Saquon Barkley were on the team.   They brought in John Ross, total gamble that could pay off and Kenny Galloday in FA.  If they add Smith or Waddle.

Shepard, Galloday, Smith/Waddle at WR.  Slayton and Ross are WR4/5.  Ingram at TE, Barkley at RB.

That's some serious fire power and before anyone says they ignored their other needs, they would still have the rest of the draft to address them.

 

The Eagles meanwhile are trotting out as of today,  Travis Fulgham, Jalen Reagor, Greg Ward, Quez Watkins, John Hightower, JJAW, Goedert and Miles Sanders.    We are being linked to Kwitty Paye...Sorry if that doesn't exactly thrill me. 

I know they are all rumors and smokescreens and such but I just have a bad feeling we are all going to be very depressed tonight. 

[Iggles_Phan]

1 minute ago, austinfan said:

Nothing except Jefferson has a middlin' year and Reagor lights it up in Minnesota and everyone here whines they should have taken Reagor. 😝

Jefferson would have had a few games like Fulgham, then teams would have pressed him with help on top and he would have disappeared as they forced other Eagle receivers to beat them.

Thanks Nostradamus.   Nice of you to present your opinion as fact again.

 

Jefferson was a MUCH more polished WR than Reagor coming out, and still is.  We are hoping that Reagor can develop just a bit of the polish that Jefferson entered the league with.   So, if you want to present this as (once again) Howie is right and everyone else is wrong... go ahead.   But, you are in a very small group with that.  There's you, there's Jeff Lurie and then maybe Howie's mother.  That's about it.

[vsptroops]

33 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said:

I was all in on Parsons a few months ago.  Now I wouldn’t touch him at 12.  Not just the hazing story.  Jon Ritchie was on the radio the other day talking about how he coached Parsons at a camp when he was a HS Senior.  Ritchie is not one to bash a player or call their character into question.  And he really didn’t come out in detail, but he definitely made it seem like that Parsons is a bad guy.    He recognized that one can grow up and be more mature from where there were at 18.  But he raised some red flags without being specific.  He didn’t want to blast the guy on the radio.  But he made it clear he didn’t like the guy.  And again, JR is a pretty opened minded dude.  There’s a lot of smoke surrounding him right now.  I wouldn’t be shocked if Zaven Collins wasn’t picked before him.   

I was listening to that show as well. JR was saying that Parsons took off his shirt and wanted to get into the running back rotation (Jon was the RB coach) and JR told him to go back to his side of the ball. JR also says that Micah Parsons is very much into Micah Parsons. He questions how devoted to football he really is. Of course you have to factor in the hazing scandal and I can see why he may fall in the draft. 

[Iggles_Phan]

3 minutes ago, purplefiggy said:

Yeah, not what I was thinking really - just how complex these decisions are and how much has to come together for a good outcome. 
 

But yeah, I do think more often the "obvious” choice would be better than the "outthinking” that the Eagles do. 

Absolutely.   And even the best drafting teams whiff from time to time.   But, how many times do we need to see the Eagles whiff, make bold moves that do nothing but set the franchise back, etc. before we say its time for a real change in the FO?  

 

It sickens me that Howie gets immunity.   And every time Howie screws up and isn't held accountable, it just creates the idea that Howie is really just a front for Lurie to meddle without having to take the heat.  There's no way that a GM can create the mess Howie has without being fired along with the HC, unless the owner is on board with all of the stupid that has taken place over the last 3 years.  And then they laid everything at the feet of Doug.  And they expect the faithful to buy that load of malarkey?   Sadly, there are those that actually do.  A HC that doesn't have autonomy over his own coaching staff is the one pulling the strings on trades, free agents, contract structures and horrible draft strategy?   Yeah... that's logical. 

[John_C]

55 minutes ago, Original Sin said:

Schrager has eagles moving up

 

Eagles

(via Lions)

TRADE

Patrick Surtain II

Alabama · CB

The Lions want to trade back. Badly. Our first massive trade of the evening comes here. I get the feeling the Eagles want one of the top two CBs, and with whispers out there that their NFC East rivals are also in that market, Howie Roseman continues to wheel and deal. In this case, the Philly GM has to give up just the 12th overall pick and a pair of third-rounders to move up five spots and get Surtain

Losing both 3rd rounders would be tough.  I agree with those that say one of those picks plus maybe a later pick to move up to 9 is about the most they should give up, and would virtually guarantee they get one of the top players in the draft they so desperately need.

1 hour ago, purplefiggy said:

I’d assume that they’ve got a larger group of players they’d be happy with than you maybe. I’ve seen so many mocks and in so many of them, there are at least 1-3 players I’d be happy with at 12. 
 

say 4 QBs go, plus Pitts and Chase. Throw in Sewell. That takes you through 7, so from there, can you make a list of at least 5 players you’d be happy with?

In no particular order

1. Surtain

2. Horn

3. Waddle

4. Smith

5. Slater

6. Parsons

 

any one of those guys plus another 1 for me works pretty well. And you know it almost never goes chalk, so you may have even more to choose from at 12

I think you have this correct.  I'd be happy with any of those top four.  The latter two or Paye will constitute a disappointment for me, as I think it will indicate they missed out on the big difference makers after trading down from 6.

[Iggles_Phan]

12 minutes ago, John_C said:

I think you have this correct.  I'd be happy with any of those top four.  The latter two or Paye will constitute a disappointment for me, as I think it will indicate they missed out on the big difference makers after trading down from 6.

I am going out on a limb and saying something crazy... the Eagles' best move at 12 might be a move back and grabbing Trevon Moehrig - S - TCU.  It would likely be unpopular, but that has never stopped these morons, and at least they'd get more 2022 draft capital (hopefully) to make it happen.

 

[Original Sin]

Maybe it’s just me , but I am not a fan of drafting Bama defensive players , bunch of 5 stars playing together out there , against much lesser competition . Of course they will look good 

[John_C]

3 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

Absolutely.   And even the best drafting teams whiff from time to time.   But, how many times do we need to see the Eagles whiff, make bold moves that do nothing but set the franchise back, etc. before we say its time for a real change in the FO?  

 

It sickens me that Howie gets immunity.   And every time Howie screws up and isn't held accountable, it just creates the idea that Howie is really just a front for Lurie to meddle without having to take the heat.  There's no way that a GM can create the mess Howie has without being fired along with the HC, unless the owner is on board with all of the stupid that has taken place over the last 3 years.  And then they laid everything at the feet of Doug.  And they expect the faithful to buy that load of malarkey?   Sadly, there are those that actually do.  A HC that doesn't have autonomy over his own coaching staff is the one pulling the strings on trades, free agents, contract structures and horrible draft strategy?   Yeah... that's logical. 

The owner is party to the stupid and in fact the primary driver since 2017.  Yes, he is on board, he is part of it.  Yes, the GM has immunity, he is the yes man / enabler / lackey for the draftnick owner, who has emboldened himself since the magical 2017 season and has decided he has arrived as the personnel guru he always wanted to be.

It is impossible to lay anything on the GM "in name only" with what we have learned.  He is following orders, both stated and unstated, in the "collaborative" approach implemented by Faux Jerry Jones.  

The good news I see moving forward is that a) the entire failed process and numerous issues have been completely exposed, and b) they are just about out of people to blame.  So when they screw this up over the next couple of days, I think we could be close to a threshold where the owner actually acknowledges he has F'd up and maybe seeks help.  

Unless and until the owner wakes up and decides to both hire AND empower someone who is actually qualified, I would suggest tempering expectations.  What they have done since the super bowl -- decimating a championship team, destroying a salary cap, drafting worst in the league, alienating and then losing a franchise QB.... it's never happened before.  They are at the forefront of futility.  Another terrible draft and terrible season won't be easily explained away by owner/GM on his next Zoom call.

[bpac55]

Per Reub:   YUCK

The Eagles have had five picks between 10 and 15 over the last 20 years and they’ve taken a defensive lineman all five times: Jerome McDougle No. 15 in 2003, Brodrick Bunkley No. 14 in 2006, Brandon Graham No. 13 in 2010, Fletcher Cox No. 12 in 2012 and Derek Barnett No. 14 in 2017. Before that they took Bernard Williams No. 14 in 1994 and Tra Thomas No. 11 in 1998. So the last seven players they’ve drafted between 10 and 15 have been linemen. The last non-lineman they took in that range was tight end Keith Jackson at No. 13 in 1988.

None of the last 49 players the Eagles have drafted outside the first round have made a Pro Bowl, a streak that goes back to 2nd-round pick Zach Ertz in 2013. 

The Eagles have drafted 34 defensive players since their last Pro Bowler, 2012 1^st-round pick Fletcher Cox.

None of the last 65 defensive players the Eagles have drafted outside the first round have made a Pro Bowl. Their last defensive Pro Bowler outside the first round was 5^th-round pick Trent Cole in 2005.

[TorontoEagle]

14 minutes ago, bpac55 said:

I know everyone on here loves to say don't worry about what other teams do but if you don't get frustrated watching our rivals add talent, or at least be linked to wanting to add at positions we seem to be "OK with" or fail to improve then I don't know what to tell you.

In 2021 and beyond, you're winning in the NFL by outscoring your opponent, not stopping them.  It's why I was hesitant to say go CB at 12.

NYG-  Sterling Shepard, Evan Ingram, Darius Slayton, Saquon Barkley were on the team.   They brought in John Ross, total gamble that could pay off and Kenny Galloday in FA.  If they add Smith or Waddle.

Shepard, Galloday, Smith/Waddle at WR.  Slayton and Ross are WR4/5.  Ingram at TE, Barkley at RB.

That's some serious fire power and before anyone says they ignored their other needs, they would still have the rest of the draft to address them.

 

The Eagles meanwhile are trotting out as of today,  Travis Fulgham, Jalen Reagor, Greg Ward, Quez Watkins, John Hightower, JJAW, Goedert and Miles Sanders.    We are being linked to Kwitty Paye...Sorry if that doesn't exactly thrill me. 

I know they are all rumors and smokescreens and such but I just have a bad feeling we are all going to be very depressed tonight. 

Shepherd isn't that good....he averages 63 catches, 700 yards and 4 TDs a year. He's an average WR. Nothing special. Slayton has showed flashes, but even still, he seems to top out at a 50 catch, 750 yard kinda guy. Again, average. Golloday can be a legit number one, but is very injury prone. Ross is a complete non factor, dude can't stay healthy, and it doesn't seem like he has any desire to play football. Engram is another average player. Saquon is elite, but coming off an ACL, is on his 5th year option which means they have to decide whether or not to give him a mega contract (let's hope they do, a la Zeke). They still have Daniel Jones slinging the rock. If they draft Smith or Waddle, cool. That effectively diminishes one of those other options you brought up. They've picked 2nd, 6th, and 4th in the last 3 drafts, and are now picking 10th this year. Much like Washington, you would certainly expect that picking so high every year would yield some good players. The Giants will likely have a better record than Philly this year. So likely will Dallas and Washington. It doesn't mean that those other three teams are anything to emulate at all. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

49 minutes ago, Peppersmacks said:

But if he's a horrid evaluator, you shouldn't place any value on having the choice.  It's just totally inconsistent logic.

He is a horrid evaluator. Id still like the chances of him picking a better player at #6 than #12.

[pallidrone]

34 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

This is always true... and yet there are people here more capable of making the right picks than Howie Roseman, even with the limited information.

There is a fallacy that because they have more information to work through that they are in a better position to make the picks.  That's just not true.   They have more information, yes.  They do not always use that extra information to make a better selection.    

 

They had more information than I did at the WR position last year.   But, all the way up to the draft, including draft night, myself and a few others (limited) were telling people that Jefferson was the guy to grab at #21.  The Eagles used their extra information to convince themselves that they knew better.   And the Vikings, who have the same opportunity to make a decision came to the polar opposite conclusion and were laughing at the Eagles taking Reagor over Jefferson.   Well, they were right, and the Eagles were dead wrong.  And who knows what happens last year if Jefferson were on this team rather than Reagor.   So, yes, the Eagles have more information.  But, more information alone does not necessitate a better outcome.  In fact, recent Eagles' history would lead one to consider that there's no correlation between 'more information' and 'better evaluation'.  

You have no idea if the Jefferson would have worked here at all yet you present your opinion as fact.

You do not know his personality. You do not know what the status of the locker room was and how he was going to mesh in there.

Jefferson went to Minnesota with a chip on his shoulder because he was passed by the Eagles and player his heart out because of it. Would that chip have been there with the Eagles? He also had one of the best WRs in the league playing along side of him, on a team with a top 5 RB, who made a concerted effort to run the ball which defenses focused on. What would have happened if Jefferson was the guy that everyone looked at because there was no Adam Theilen or Dalvin Cooks to take the pressure off? Where would his mind be when Wentz over threw him the ball or did not look his way because he was throwing to Ertz again? Could he handle the scrutiny that comes with playing football in Philadelphia and their media versus the 'gosh golly' media in Minnesota?

This is not a validation for Howie in any means. It is just an observation of how ludicrous this hatred of him has become. There is so many more factors that go into acquiring football players and assimilating them into a team then just their ability to play. They could be the best at their position, but unless they can meld into team and work cohesively with the rest of the team, then they are worthless.

[NCiggles]

1 minute ago, Iggles_Phan said:

I am going out on a limb and saying something crazy... the Eagles' best move at 12 might be a move back and grabbing Travis Moehrig - S - TCU.  It would likely be unpopular, but that has never stopped these morons, and at least they'd get more 2022 draft capital (hopefully) to make it happen.

 

I would be good with a trade back to take Jaelen Phillips as well.  I mean trading back to 20 and picking up the Bears 1st round pick for 2022 would be a great trade.

Just now, Original Sin said:

Maybe it’s just me , but I am not a fan of drafting Bama defensive players , bunch of 5 stars playing together out there , against much lesser competition . Of course they will look good 

I mean if you just ignore the success they have had in the NFL sure that's good analysis.  I mean Marlon Humphrey, Minkah Fitzpatrick, Landon Collins, Eddie Jackson, CJ Mosely, Donta Hightower, Marcel Dareus were the Alabama players drafted in the last 10 years that have made the pro-bowl on just the defensive side of the ball. 

[RememberTheKoy]

1 hour ago, Original Sin said:

Schrager has eagles moving up

 

Eagles

(via Lions)

TRADE

Patrick Surtain II

Alabama · CB

The Lions want to trade back. Badly. Our first massive trade of the evening comes here. I get the feeling the Eagles want one of the top two CBs, and with whispers out there that their NFC East rivals are also in that market, Howie Roseman continues to wheel and deal. In this case, the Philly GM has to give up just the 12th overall pick and a pair of third-rounders to move up five spots and get Surtain

 

Hate the idea of giving up both 3rds to trade up.