EMB Blog: 2021 Offseason

[John_C]

5 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Talent evaluation has been a huge problem under the Doug regime, both in terms of draft and who climbs the depth chart and plays on Sundays.

2nd and 3rd round picks like JJAW, Hurts, and Taylor — who shouldn’t even be on the radar yet when the Eagles pick them.  Drafting Hollins a full round too early, trading up to draft Pumphrey a full two rounds early.  These gaffes simply can’t continue.  Having guys like Gerry as a starting LB and playing virtually 100% of the snaps until he got injured, picking up the 5th year option on Agholor and paying him $9.4M was obscenely stupid.

We will soon find out how much of this shoddy talent evaluation was on Doug and his coaching staff, and how much is Howie and Weidl and the scouts. 

I suspect little to none of the issues are attributable to the former head coach or his staff, when the head coach was not even entrusted with making decisions on his own coaching staff.

I don't know that we will learn much this weekend, as we don't know whether the owner/GM and lackey are just making decisions based on what they want and disregarding the scouting and personnel people they employ, as has been the reported practice for the last several years.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, austinfan said:

They have four starters on the DL plus Sweat and Ridgeway. So if they draft a DE or DT, they'll sit in 2021.

So they can look at projects later in the draft to develop, there's no urgency to add a starter this year. Which means they'd only take Paye as the BPA.

 

Name calling makes you sound like you're some pimply faced 14 year old. You're aren't, are you?

Well your initial statement was they have 4 starters at DE plus Sweat and Ridgeway.  So maybe you should have said DL.

Taking it that way, DE and DT are still a need.  Graham is 33, no idea if Barnett will be here next year, and Sweat is not a starter.

DT you have 30 year old Cox, and at some point they are gonna have to cut bait due to his contract,  Hargrave is 28 and has two years left on his deal and there is no guarantee he signs a second contract, and Ridgeway is not a starter.

The Eagles are not going to wait until next year to possibly replace all 4 starters on the DL for 2023.

You are just going to have to come to grips with the fact that the Eagles are going to draft Paye and the fans are going to burn your boy Howie down.

[austinfan]

16 minutes ago, John_C said:

I haven't seen the Eagles add "a lot of talent" in a draft since probably Andy Reid was still here.... so while I always appreciate the balance provided by your undying optimism.... this is not what I expect to happen.

What the Rams did with Goff was far stupider, traded him with 2021 3rd, 2022 1st and 2023 1st for 33 year old Stafford. We at least got a 3rd and maybe a 1st back.

2012:  Cox, Kendricks, Curry, Foles, Kelly

2013:  Lane, Ertz, Logan, Poyer

 

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, austinfan said:

The hatred of Howie is ludicrous because of Reagor versus Jefferson? 

How about trading up for Pumphrey?  You got to be kidding, 4th rd player doesn't work out - STOP THE PRESSES.

Drafting JJAW?  Everyone has bad days. See if Siri can resurrect his career, did any WR develop under Doug?

Going against the board and taking Hurts over Chinn to exercise his demons from the past (missing on Wilson)? It had nothing to do with Wilson, it had a lot to do with Wentz getting injured every season.  If Hurts is an average starting QB this year, it's a great pick. Because half of the QBs taken in the top ten don't reach that standard.  We'll see.

Free agent moves?  Big splashy, expensive aging players that contribute very little but lock in the team to them LONG after their impact on the team (if any) is long gone. DeSean is the only one. Malik was just bad luck (durable player gets injured). Who else? Hargrave has been a solid DT. Jenkins? Brooks?

Cap management?   Second to worst cap situation in the NFL this year... not much better next year.  Lots of pushing bad contracts into the future to cover for his old mistakes. It was either push money into the future or rebuild. When did you clamor to start the rebuild?

Trades?  trade for a player, then pay him top dollar with a new deal?  That's paying twice.  Trading for players that the coaching can't or won't incorporate in to the offense/defense. You think Howie traded for players without consulting with Doug and Schwartz? it's documented that Schwartz had a lot of influence over personnel decisions. Slay was a mistake that was a result of not starting the rebuild in 2020 (which meant firing Doug before last season).

Simple question:  What has Howie done well in the last 3 seasons? Accumulated a bunch of draft picks for the rebuild. Fired Doug.

 

Let's play:

Pumphrey was the end result of focusing laser focused on a single position at a specific spot in the draft (aka, find a Darren Sproles clone)... Tarik Cohen went off the board, they panicked and made a move up for a player that had ZERO business being in the NFL.   It isn't about the move, its about the process that led to it.  That process was bad, as many of those other moves.

JJAW was a bad day?  Round 2 isn't a good time to have a 'bad day'.   When did Howie have a 'good day'?

Selecting Hurts led to needing to push out the QB they were supposedly building the franchise around.  Again, it's not about the pick... its about the process.  Hurts wasn't the highest rated player on their board.  Hurts wasn't at a position of 'need' (Sudfeld was under contract as the backup, and he's "unstoppable" according to Lurie.)  Again, going away from the board (just like they did with JJAW) and selecting based on whatever other criteria is not good in 'that moment, on that day'... in other words, the decisions made on draft day are NOT supposed to be decisions made 'that day', but rather through the entire preparation process and discussions and building the board before the draft.  Those decisions are not supposed to be made spur of the moment. 

 

You are going to ancient history with original signings of Brooks and Jenkins.  I am talking about the last 3 years.  Jenkins when first signed was a great signing.  Brooks as well.  However, Brooks' new deal signed in 2019, after his Achilles injury. That was a mistake... going along the lines of my point... overpaying for aging, injured players.  Sorry (and I love Brooks), but that was a horrible decision AND that deal was a gross overpayment.  There was no need for him to reset the OG market with that Brooks deal, especially then, after the injury.  But, he did.  Whoops.    Hargrave was a solid DT.  BUT, it was just more money poured into the most expensive position on the defense.  DT was already bloated with the Cox contract, the Jackson contract, and they poured MORE money into it, because they couldn't count on Jackson again... so it was a signing to cover for a mistake that he'd already made.  Jeffery's situation is just like this.  They drafted his replacement in 2019 (JJAW - whoops), then restructured Jeffery and are on the hook for him again this year while he's off the roster, and again in 2022 once he's gone for TWO years off the roster.    (Desean is costing the Eagles more money dead on the cap this year than the 49ers overpaid him for this year.)

 

Cap management.  That's a nice false dilemma you've created there.  I'm not falling into that trap.  There wasn't a need to push money into the future to maintain, they needed to retool, but they could have retooled the same way they actually built 2017... low risk, low cost, high reward moves along the lines of Long, Robinson, Jeffery's 1 year deal, Torry Smith, etc.  Not signing guys like Jackson (either one of them) to deals that locked you in to them.  (Malik Jackson will cost the Eagles cap space in 2021 and 2022 due to that move.   That's not the only move they could have made.   And... if they'd managed to get impact from their draft picks, they'd have an easier time refilling the talent base.  They didn't.   Bad picks, bad contracts, and they regressed every year after the Super Bowl.  Clearly, they got desperate, and desperate teams don't have good process, just as a drowning man doesn't make rational decisions in an effort to save himself.

 

Trades.   The GM is responsible for ALL moves.  If he thought they were bad moves, then he had veto power.  He made the moves, he got on the phone with the other teams, he made the trades.   The trade for Desean wasn't bad.  It was a 6th round pick, they'd have gotten him for a low contract and not been locked in.  But, Howie decided to lock the team in with a big money contract to a 33 year old, that you yourself have claimed was known to be missing games due to injury.  WHY?  Why lock in to an aging player, who's greatest gift is speed, is lightly built, and had only ever played every game in a season twice (2008 and 2013 - ancient history)?  That's foolish.   And it shows desperation.

 

Final point: What he did well?  Wow.  You just skipped over every move from Feb. 5th, 2018, up until the end of the season this past year.  Are you conceding that Howie had not done a single thing well during that time?   If so, great.  We have common ground.  Of course, that begs the question:  Why is Howie immune from accountability?      As for firing Doug... Lurie did that.  He said so in his faux PC.   That was Lurie's call, not Howie's.    But, thanks for trying.

[TorontoEagle]

2 minutes ago, John_C said:

I suspect little to none of the issues are attributable to the former head coach or his staff, when the head coach was not even entrusted with making decisions on his own coaching staff.

I don't know that we will learn much this weekend, as we don't know whether the owner/GM and lackey are just making decisions based on what they want and disregarding the scouting and personnel people they employ, as has been the reported practice for the last several years.

While the evaluation may not be attributable to them, the complete lack of development certainly is. Corner, safety, linebacker, receiver....none of those positions saw anybody develop or get better in the time of Doug/Schwartz. That certainly has a hand in making the talent evaluators look far worse. There's no one component that has us in the mess we're in, rather it's a large combination of screw ups along the way. One variable will change this year with a new coaching staff. If the talent still looks awful, then we should be looking at changing the next variable, which is Howie (though he should be gone already). 

[Iggles_Phan]

26 minutes ago, LeanMeanGM said:

Source?

I thought he was supposed to use spoiler tags when posting stuff like that!   @HazletonEagle  Come on man!  No spoilers!

[TorontoEagle]

4 minutes ago, downundermike said:

Well your initial statement was they have 4 starters at DE plus Sweat and Ridgeway.  So maybe you should have said DL.

Taking it that way, DE and DT are still a need.  Graham is 33, no idea if Barnett will be here next year, and Sweat is not a starter.

DT you have 30 year old Cox, and at some point they are gonna have to cut bait due to his contract,  Hargrave is 28 and has two years left on his deal and there is no guarantee he signs a second contract, and Ridgeway is not a starter.

The Eagles are not going to wait until next year to possibly replace all 4 starters on the DL for 2023.

You are just going to have to come to grips with the fact that the Eagles are going to draft Paye and the fans are going to burn your boy Howie down.

I don't think you're advocating for Paye at 12, more that you believe the Eagles will take him there (I hope they don't).

But, there isn't a great amount of d-line talent to be had early in this draft. Next year, with the ammo they've built up, may be a much better time to attack the d-line need. We can get by this year (cause we aren't competing anyway) with what we have on the D-line. I think that was Afan's position. D-linemen are one of the positions where you really can plug and play a rookie and get results, so I don't mind if they go hard after it next year instead of this. 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

6 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

I don't think you're advocating for Paye at 12, more that you believe the Eagles will take him there (I hope they don't).

But, there isn't a great amount of d-line talent to be had early in this draft. Next year, with the ammo they've built up, may be a much better time to attack the d-line need. We can get by this year (cause we aren't competing anyway) with what we have on the D-line. I think that was Afan's position. D-linemen are one of the positions where you really can plug and play a rookie and get results, so I don't mind if they go hard after it next year instead of this. 

I could totally see the eagles wanting paye at 12. It’s a long term need as Graham is 33, Barnett is on a one year 5th year option so he could be gone and sweat has also not been extend and has a knee condition that may or may not hinder the longevity of his career. The short term Barnett seemingly misses games every single year since his rookie season he has not played a full 16 games(6, 14 and 13 the last 3 years). Graham is 33 and maybe he doesn’t decline much but at 33 there’s definitely a chance that cliff hits sooner rather than later. Love sweat but he’s best utilized if he’s the 3rd DE in a rotation. I could totally see paye being long term and even short term value for the eagles. Plus he’s a position the eagles covet and i also believe they would envision using him in a lot of ways they use Graham. 

[aptosbird]

I think the Eagles FO have had a pretty solid offseason so far and I am hoping Howie has received a strong message from above. I think this is the year where coaching and scouting input will matter. I will make my yearly plug for a LB early in the draft, but would be satisfied if the Eagles stay put and grab either Slater, Horn, Surtain, Smith or Waddle....no big surprises please

[austinfan]

13 minutes ago, Alphagrand said:

Talent evaluation has been a huge problem under the Doug regime, both in terms of draft and who climbs the depth chart and plays on Sundays.

2nd and 3rd round picks like JJAW, Hurts, and Taylor — who shouldn’t even be on the radar yet when the Eagles pick them.  Drafting Hollins a full round too early, trading up to draft Pumphrey a full two rounds early.  These gaffes simply can’t continue.  Having guys like Gerry as a starting LB and playing virtually 100% of the snaps until he got injured, picking up the 5th year option on Agholor and paying him $9.4M was obscenely stupid.

We will soon find out how much of this shoddy talent evaluation was on Doug and his coaching staff, and how much is Howie and Weidl and the scouts. 

JJAW was the only real gaffe.

Hollins was #118, Pumphrey #132. Let's see Cohen #119 was on the board, Ekuban LB #125, Davenport T #130, Williams RB #134, Mack RB #143, Stewart DT #144, Kittle TE #146, Kazee CB #149, King S #151, Brown LB #155. 10 hits in about 40 picks, so while you could do better, odds weren't in your favor.

Taylor was #103, the only players after him who started or played major roles in 2020:  Kindley G #111, Bryant TE #115, Davis WR #128. So check back in two years.

Gerry was fine value where he was picked, never should have started, but as a backup LB and ST at #184.

Agholor just signed a 2yr/$22M deal with the Patriots - guess the problem wasn't the option year but the HC who couldn't figure out how to use him.

[austinfan]

1 minute ago, aptosbird said:

I think the Eagles FO have had a pretty solid offseason so far and I am hoping Howie has received a strong message from above. I think this is the year where coaching and scouting input will matter. I will make my yearly plug for a LB early in the draft, but would be satisfied if the Eagles stay put and grab either Slater, Horn, Surtain, Smith or Waddle....no big surprises please

You may get your LB, Indy drafted 3 LBs in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd rd in the three years Gannon was there, so he comes from an organization that placed a higher value on LBs.

However, just say no to Parsons.

[austinfan]

3 minutes ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I could totally see the eagles wanting paye. 

But not at #12. They could move down and choose between Paye and Owah closer to #20, or take one in the 2nd or 3rd rds, or some third day fliers.

[TorontoEagle]

5 minutes ago, austinfan said:

You may get your LB, Indy drafted 3 LBs in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd rd in the three years Gannon was there, so he comes from an organization that placed a higher value on LBs.

However, just say no to Parsons.

Do you not want Parsons due to off field concerns? 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

5 minutes ago, austinfan said:

But not at #12. They could move down and choose between Paye and Owah closer to #20, or take one in the 2nd or 3rd rds, or some third day fliers.

Or if they love paye enough and don’t want to potentially risk losing him so they take him at 12. It’s not like paye by most mocks and analysts isn’t projected from around 11-25. Heck out of 7 mocks on nfl.com has him going 11, 11, 11, 13, 18, 18, 19. So if they love him trading back might blow up in their face and miss out on him. 

[Iggles_Phan]

28 minutes ago, greend said:

They really,really,really, really wanted he player?

Nah.  Simple answer is:  "It's the Jets!"    

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, TorontoEagle said:

I don't think you're advocating for Paye at 12, more that you believe the Eagles will take him there (I hope they don't).

But, there isn't a great amount of d-line talent to be had early in this draft. Next year, with the ammo they've built up, may be a much better time to attack the d-line need. We can get by this year (cause we aren't competing anyway) with what we have on the D-line. I think that was Afan's position. D-linemen are one of the positions where you really can plug and play a rookie and get results, so I don't mind if they go hard after it next year instead of this. 

I am definitely not advocating for Paye at 12, or at 20, or in the first round at all.

I have just come to grips with the fact that he will be the selection.

[greend]

10 minutes ago, aptosbird said:

I think the Eagles FO have had a pretty solid offseason so far and I am hoping Howie has received a strong message from above. I think this is the year where coaching and scouting input will matter. I will make my yearly plug for a LB early in the draft, but would be satisfied if the Eagles stay put and grab either Slater, Horn, Surtain, Smith or Waddle....no big surprises please

There really aren't any positions that wouldn't need to be drafted in the first round this year. Everything is a need. IMO

[Iggles_Phan]

27 minutes ago, John_C said:

I suspect little to none of the issues are attributable to the former head coach or his staff, when the head coach was not even entrusted with making decisions on his own coaching staff.

I don't know that we will learn much this weekend, as we don't know whether the owner/GM and lackey are just making decisions based on what they want and disregarding the scouting and personnel people they employ, as has been the reported practice for the last several years.

yup

[TorontoEagle]

Just now, greend said:

There really aren't any positions that wouldn't need to be drafted in the first round this year. Everything is a need. IMO

Even kicker?

[austinfan]

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

Do you not want Parsons due to off field concerns? 

Both character issues and fit, I'm not sold on him as an elite MLB, if I had a defense which used a rush LB/joker I'd rate him higher.

But when I take a LB that high, I want someone like Urlacher or Keuchly, an anchor to my defense, not a flashy tinker toy.

I don't care about sideline to sideline speed in a MLB, I want great "read and react" skills and coverage skills. Good speed will suffice.

The ultra fast guy I want at WLB - but I'm not taking him at #12 unless he's truly elite. I can get good WLBs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

[TorontoEagle]

Just now, austinfan said:

Both character issues and fit, I'm not sold on him as an elite MLB, if I had a defense which used a rush LB/joker I'd rate him higher.

But when I take a LB that high, I want someone like Urlacher or Keuchly, an anchor to my defense, not a flashy tinker toy.

I don't care about sideline to sideline speed in a MLB, I want great "read and react" skills and coverage skills. Good speed will suffice.

The ultra fast guy I want at WLB - but I'm not taking him at #12 unless he's truly elite. I can get good WLBs in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

I thought he compared favorably to Keuchly? 

[e-a-g-l-e-s eagles!]

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

Even kicker?

I would argue kicker is a need with how Elliott kicked last year. But not in the first round unless you are the raiders lol 

[TorontoEagle]

1 minute ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said:

I would argue kicker is a need with how Elliott kicked last year. But not in the first round unless you are the raiders lol 

I would argue it's never worth any pick to take a kicker. They're such headcases and so inconsistent from year to year, with very few outliers. 

[austinfan]

1 minute ago, TorontoEagle said:

I thought he compared favorably to Keuchly? 

Haven't seen that comparison anywhere. Parsons is a great athlete, but I haven't seen him described as highly instinctual.

"There are some negatives to Parsons’ game; for one, he isn’t as instinctual with his keys, and he does tend to lose responsibility at times against the run. Attacks with ferociousness downhill but is susceptible to misdirection--he could develop better eye discipline."

To me he's perfect for a scheme where they can let him loose on the edge to attack and disrupt.

[Iggles_Phan]

25 minutes ago, austinfan said:

What the Rams did with Goff was far stupider, traded him with 2021 3rd, 2022 1st and 2023 1st for 33 year old Stafford. We at least got a 3rd and maybe a 1st back.

2012:  Cox, Kendricks, Curry, Foles, Kelly

2013:  Lane, Ertz, Logan, Poyer

 

That was 7 and 8 years ago.  

 

And comparing stupid isn't really a helpful defense.   If Lurie is supposedly this great owner, and Howie is this great GM, then shouldn't they be compared to the top of the league and not the bottom, and comparing their moves to the best of the league rather than the worst?   

 

Judge:  "You were caught driving 50 in a school zone.   If found guilty, you will be fined and have your license suspended.   Do you have anything to say in your defense?"
Speeder: "Judge, there was another guy going 70!"  

Not really a good defense, is it?