3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Boy have I got good news for you, ole chap!

FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine

Approval Signifies Key Achievement for Public Health

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine

Moderna?  J &J?

Just now, DEagle7 said:

You're missing the part where we can't trust the evil greedy big pharma, so we should use other more expensive drugs, made by kind benevolent big pharma. 

Aren't you busy practicing medicine?  It's not Wednesday after all.

12 minutes ago, Procus said:

Yah, the media hasn't otherwise been fear mongering or manipulating the truth about Covid until now.

There is plenty of media that was happily denying such a virus existed.

Just now, Procus said:

What, two weeks ago?  How long was it being pushed?  What percentage are using unapproved Moderna and other vaccines?  What a tool.

So you doubt the efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna? Where did you earn your degree in epidemiology? Both have proven to be highly effective against Covid. 

So let's hear how affective the animal heart worm medication is to treat Covid or injecting bleach. How's that working for folks? Stats?

So let's recap the failures of a moronic trumpbot's thought process...

 

1.) Calls FDA approved vaccines experimental while advocating for off-label use of an anti-parasitic that's somehow not considered experimental.

2.) Claims vaccines are a ploy by big pharma to get rich, while advocating for use of monoclonal antibodies that cost orders of magnitude more.

3.) Predicts covid is never going away, then in the next breath says ivermectin should be taken regularly as a prophylactic because it's cheaper than a $20 vaccine.

4.) Believes anyone who doubts the use of ivermectin must be brainwashed by the liberal media into thinking all treatments are ineffective, and shouldn't seek treatment for a breakthrough infection.

I'm sure I missed a few others in there, they're tough to keep track of.

2 minutes ago, Procus said:

Moderna?  J &J?

Aren't you busy practicing medicine?  It's not Wednesday after all.

Hydroxychloroquine? Bleach IV? Ivermectin?

Which ones get approved first, do you think?

1 minute ago, Procus said:

Aren't you busy practicing medicine?  It's not Wednesday after all.

I'm on paternity leave.  Also it's not hard to refute your nonsense when you repeat the same crap over and over again. 

I know a bunch of Trump voters that got the vaccine as soon as it was available

Also know Biden’s voters that have yet to get the vaccine

Just saying with the generalizations in here 🤷‍♂️

52 minutes ago, Procus said:

Then there's this.   If any of you get infected with the Mu variant, you'll need to rely on your vaccines because you don't believe in treatment if it's not supported by big pharm or the FDA.

https://www.jpost.com/health-and-wellness/coronavirus/covid-19-new-mu-variant-from-colombia-could-be-vaccine-resistant-who-678428

COVID-19: New 'Mu variant' from Colombia could be vaccine resistant - WHO

A number of mutations suggest that the Mu variant could resist immune defenses and possibly even have a faster transmission than other variants.

By AARON REICH  

SEPTEMBER 2, 2021 16:29

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) is closely monitoring the emergence of a new variant of the novel coronavirus, the Mu variant, which has already been spreading through South America and has shown signs of possible vaccine resistance.

 

First identified in January 2021 in Colombia, the Mu variant has seen sporadic cases emerge throughout South America and Europe. Globally, the variant accounts for less than 0.1% of all cases worldwide. However, the WHO has noted that it has become considerably more prevalent in Colombia and Ecuador, where it accounts for approximately 39% and 13% of respective cases.

 

Further research is needed to accurately verify if this new variant, also known by the designations VUI-21JUL-01 and B.1.621, could be resistant to vaccines. The WHO is still monitoring it as a Variant Of Interest, as there are several mutations, two of which were designated E484K and K417N, suggesting it could resist immune defenses in a similar manner to the Beta variant found in South Africa.

 

Another mutation found, dubbed P681H, has also caused some concern, as this could make the variant more infectious, similar to the Alpha variant found in the UK, according to The Guardian. However, it isn’t clear if this is in fact more contagious than other variants, with an August report by Public Health England noting, "At present, there is no evidence that VUI-21JUL-01 is outcompeting the Delta variant and it appears unlikely that it is more transmissible.”

 

The Mu variant has been detected in some 40 countries so far, including the UK, US, Hong Kong and in Europe, and could spread further.

 

On Thursday, Japan’s Health Ministry confirmed that two Mu variant cases were detected in the country in June and July during airport screenings, the former having been an arrival from the UAE and the latter having arrived from the UK, though both were asymptomatic, the Japan Times reported. According to The Guardian, some 32 people in the UK have been diagnosed with the Mu variant, with the infection patterns indicating that people entering the country had brought it with them.

 

But Mu isn’t the only new variant causing concern. Recently, scientists found another variant in South Africa and a number of other countries, designated C.1.2, with concerns that it could be more infectious and evade vaccines, according to a new preprint study by South Africa’s National Institute for Communicable Diseases and the KwaZulu-Natal Research Innovation and Sequencing Platform, which is awaiting peer review.

 

Scientists first detected C.1.2 in May 2021, finding that it was descended from C.1, which scientists found surprising since C.1 had last been detected in January. The new variant has "mutated substantially” compared to C.1 and is more mutations away from the original virus detected in Wuhan than nearly any other variant.

 

While first detected in South Africa, C.1.2 has since been found in England, China, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Mauritius, New Zealand, Portugal and Switzerland.

 

The South African study comes as a doctor in Turkey reported indications that a new coronavirus variant had been detected in the country, with tests detecting mutations that weren’t found in the current variants named by the WHO.

 

The coronavirus pandemic originated in Wuhan, China, and has since spread worldwide. Over the past two years, the disease has infected hundreds of millions of people. The global death toll is estimated at around 4.5 million.

There’s not a single sentence in there that says the New variant is vaccine resistant.  They haven’t studied it enough and have very little data on it to come to any conclusions about spread, infection rates, vaccine effectiveness, etc.  

stop reading headlines and start reading the actual information.

6 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

So let's recap the failures of a moronic trumpbot's through process...

 

1.) Calls FDA approved vaccines experimental while advocating for off-label use of an anti-parasitic that's somehow not considered experimental.

2.) Claims vaccines are a ploy by big pharma to get rich, while advocating for use of monoclonal antibodies that cost orders of magnitude more.

3.) Predicts covid is never going away, then in the next breath says ivermectin should be taken regularly as a prophylactic because it's cheaper than a $20 vaccine.

4.) Believes anyone who doubts the use of ivermectin must be brainwashed by the liberal media into thinking all treatments are ineffective, and shouldn't seek treatment for a breakthrough infection.

I'm sure I missed a few others in there, they're tough to keep track of.

Don’t forget the overarching thought process of applauding trump for operation warp speed to develop the life saving vaccines and then criticizing Biden for getting it into arms because it’s, you know, experimental and filled with mind controlling substances.  

 

7 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Hydroxychloroquine? Bleach IV? Ivermectin?

Which ones get approved first, do you think?

You're a tiresome bore.  Bye bye!!

10 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

So you doubt the efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna? Where did you earn your degree in epidemiology? Both have proven to be highly effective against Covid. 

So let's hear how affective the animal heart worm medication is to treat Covid or injecting bleach. How's that working for folks? Stats?

So you doubt the efficacy of Iveremectin?  Where did you earn your degree in epidemiology?  It has been proven highly effective against Covid and pushed back the Delta variant very quickly in India.  The vaccines are not preventing infection or transmission.  Their effectiveness is now touted for therapeutic purposes primarily.  And there are budding reports of vaccine resistant strains.  Who didn't see that coming a mile away.

WTF do you care if somebody wants to try Ivermectin if they're infected.  Worry about your own business.

10 minutes ago, Mike030270 said:

I know a bunch of Trump voters that got the vaccine as soon as it was available

Also know Biden’s voters that have yet to get the vaccine

Just saying with the generalizations in here 🤷‍♂️

Plenty of exceptions sure but let's not pretend there isn't a clear correlation

Study finds low rate of COVID-19, "breakthrough" infections, fewer symptoms in vaccinated people.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-breakthrough-infections-vaccine-rate-symptoms-study/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab&utm_content=curated#app

 

8 minutes ago, DBW said:

There’s not a single sentence in there that says the New variant is vaccine resistant.  They haven’t studied it enough and have very little data on it to come to any conclusions about spread, infection rates, vaccine effectiveness, etc.  

stop reading headlines and start reading the actual information.

Quote

 

The World Health Organization (WHO) is closely monitoring the emergence of a new variant of the novel coronavirus, the Mu variant, which has already been spreading through South America and has shown signs of possible vaccine resistance.

 

First identified in January 2021 in Colombia, the Mu variant has seen sporadic cases emerge throughout South America and Europe. Globally, the variant accounts for less than 0.1% of all cases worldwide. However, the WHO has noted that it has become considerably more prevalent in Colombia and Ecuador, where it accounts for approximately 39% and 13% of respective cases.

 

Further research is needed to accurately verify if this new variant, also known by the designations VUI-21JUL-01 and B.1.621, could be resistant to vaccines. The WHO is still monitoring it as a Variant Of Interest, as there are several mutations, two of which were designated E484K and K417N, suggesting it could resist immune defenses in a similar manner to the Beta variant found in South Africa.

 

I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit.  That's okay.  There are remedial reading classes available for you.

If only there were a way to reduce the rate of mutations so these pesky variants didn't pop up so much...

14 minutes ago, Procus said:

So you doubt the efficacy of Iveremectin?  Where did you earn your degree in epidemiology?  It has been proven highly effective against Covid and pushed back the Delta variant very quickly in India.  The vaccines are not preventing infection or transmission.  Their effectiveness is now touted for therapeutic purposes primarily.  And there are budding reports of vaccine resistant strains.  Who didn't see that coming a mile away.

WTF do you care if somebody wants to try Ivermectin if they're infected.  Worry about your own business.

I don't care. I don't care if they use Ivermectin or inject bleach. If that's what they want to do good. I do care that the Unvaccinated are filling up ICU Beds and clogging hospitals from those who chose not to get sick, like cancer patients, stroke victims and heart attack victims who need oxygen and hospital beds that are being used by people who don't care about Covid or Vaccines. 

News Flash:

 Iveremectin: It has been proven highly effective against Covid and pushed back the Delta variant very quickly in India. 

Proof? Link? 

12 minutes ago, Procus said:

I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit.  That's okay.  There are remedial reading classes available for you.

"Signs of possible resistance” does not equal "vaccine resistant.”  
 

and it also says "further research is needed to determine if New variant xxxxxxxxx COULD be resistant.” 
 

neither of those two sentences says IS resistant.  

30 minutes ago, Procus said:

You're a tiresome bore.  Bye bye!!

Low energy, no stamina, weak willed. Sad.

6 hours ago, Procus said:

Do YOU trust pharmaceutical companies?  Do you think they would push expensive products over cheap alternatives if they stood to make billions?

My prescription plan does not allow this lol

22 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

News Flash:

 Iveremectin: It has been proven highly effective against Covid and pushed back the Delta variant very quickly in India. 

Proof? Link? 

No - you're going to have to google this yourself.  I'm not your research assistant and I'm not going through this whole thread to show you where I already posted it.

26 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

I don't care. I don't care if they use Ivermectin or inject bleach. If that's what they want to do good. I do care that the Unvaccinated are filling up ICU Beds and clogging hospitals from those who chose not to get sick, like cancer patients, stroke victims and heart attack victims who need oxygen and hospital beds that are being used by people who don't care about Covid or Vaccines. 

Do you care that vaccinated people are also getting sick?

https://sharylattkisson.com/2021/08/study-why-so-many-vaccinated-people-are-getting-sick/

(STUDY) Why so many vaccinated people are getting sick: Antibody Dependent Enhancement (ADE)

Dated: August 17, 2021 by Sharyl Attkisson 103 Comments

According to studies:

• ADE can make vaccinated people more susceptible to serious infection from the virus
• "ADE may be a concern" for those who have been vaccinated for Covid-19
• With ADE, after people get vaccinated for an initial virus, infection by a subsequent variant or strain of the virus can result in "increased viral replication and more severe disease, leading to major safety risks"
• ADE can also "occur when neutralizing antibodies (which bind the virus and stop it from causing infection) are present at low enough levels that they don't protect against infection. Instead, they can form immune complexes with viral particles, which in turn leads to worse illness"
• This concern was initially described by some scientists who were subsequently banned from media platforms that incorrectly claimed the scientists were disseminating disinformation
• Study scientists suggest the answer is to create a new vaccine

In a new study in the Journal of Infection, scientists explain one likely reason why so many vaccinated people are getting sick: a dangerous phenomenon called Antibody Dependent Enhancement or ADE.

Despite the fact that multiple medical authorities predicted, told us, and hoped, ADE would not impact Covid-19 vaccines, data from the study indicates it has done just that.

According to the new study, data suggests that the Covid-19 vaccines originally appeared to provide an overall benefit in fighting the virus. However, when it comes to one of the newer iterations of Covid, the Delta variant, the vaccines appear to facilitate infection displaying "a strikingly increased affinity" for the virus' trademark spike protein.

The scientists conclude that "ADE may be a concern" for those who have been vaccinated for Covid-19.

Read the study here.

According to scientific study, the ADE risk was well known prior to the Covid-19 vaccines being allowed on the market.

"One potential hurdle for antibody-based vaccines and therapeutics is the risk of exacerbating COVID-19 severity via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE)," explained a study in Nature. "ADE can increase the severity of multiple viral infections, including other respiratory viruses such as respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) and measles."

Scientists say that with ADE, after people get vaccinated for an initial virus, infection by a subsequent variant or strain of the virus can result in "increased viral replication and more severe disease, leading to major safety risks."

"Non-neutralizing antibodies generated by past infection or vaccination fail to shut down the pathogen upon re-exposure. Instead, they act as a gateway by allowing the virus to gain entry and replicate in cells that are usually off limits... That, in turn, can lead to wider dissemination of illness, and over-reactive immune responses that cause more severe illness," according to scientists.

An article in MedPage (prior to the new study) dismissed concerns about ADE, but noted it "can also occur when neutralizing antibodies (which bind the virus and stop it from causing infection) are present at low enough levels that they don't protect against infection. Instead, they can form immune complexes with viral particles, which in turn leads to worse illness."

On the other hand, most scientific studies on this topic say those who have recovered from Covid-19 have natural immunity that does not display the same problem, and appears to be superior to that, so far, of that provided by the vaccines.

Nonetheless, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and many public health officials are pressing for more people to get vaccinated, including those who have been previously-infected with Covid. (Numerous studies suggest there is no benefit to recovered patients getting vaccinated.) The health officials state that the vaccinated patients who are getting Covid are getting milder forms than they would have if they had not been vaccinated. However, that is a case-by-case assumption and is impossible to prove.

In Israel, health officials say that only 1% among Covid infections in the latest wave are among those previously infected with Covid. The other 99% are among unvaccinated and not previously-infected, and among fully-vaccinated.

• Covid-19 Natural Immunity: The Definitive Summary
• Covid-19 Vaccine Concerns Summary
• Covid-19 Vaccine Analysis: Common Adverse Events
• Covid-19 Origins: Separating Rumor from Fact (WATCH)
• Report a Possible Vaccine Adverse Event,

According to the new study, the solution to the current ADE problem is to invent a new, updated version of the vaccine.

Children's Hospital of Philadelphia (which accepts funding from the vaccine industry) reports the following about ADE:

A major goal of antibodies is to bind to the pathogen and prevent it from infecting, or entering, a cell. Antibodies that prevent entry into cells are called neutralizing antibodies. Many vaccines work by inducing neutralizing antibodies. However, not all antibody responses are created equal. Sometimes antibodies do not prevent cell entry and, on rare occasions, they may actually increase the ability of a virus to enter cells and cause a worsening of disease through a mechanism called antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE).

What is ADE?

ADE occurs when the antibodies generated during an immune response recognize and bind to a pathogen, but they are unable to prevent infection. Instead, these antibodies act as a "Trojan horse,” allowing the pathogen to get into cells and exacerbate the immune response.

Is ADE caused by vaccines?

On a few occasions ADE has resulted from vaccination:

• Respiratory syncytial virus (RSV) — RSV is a virus that commonly causes pneumonia in children. A vaccine was made by growing RSV, purifying it, and inactivating it with the chemical formaldehyde. In clinical trials, children who were given the vaccine were more likely to develop or die from pneumonia after infection with RSV. As a result of this finding, the vaccine trials stopped, and the vaccine was never submitted for approval or released to the public.
• Measles — An early version of measles vaccine was made by inactivating measles virus using formaldehyde. Children who were vaccinated and later became infected with measles in the community developed high fevers, unusual rash, and an atypical form of pneumonia. Upon seeing these results, the vaccine was withdrawn from use, and those who received this version of the vaccine were recommended to be vaccinated again using the live, weakened measles vaccine, which does not cause ADE and is still in use today.

A more recent example of ADE following vaccination comes from dengue virus:

• Dengue virus — In 2016, a dengue virus vaccine was designed to protect against all four serotypes of the virus. The hope was that by inducing immune responses to all four serotypes at once, the vaccine could circumvent the issues related to ADE following disease with dengue virus. The vaccine was given to 800,000 children in the Philippines. Fourteen vaccinated children died after encountering dengue virus in the community. It is hypothesized that the children developed antibody responses that were not capable of neutralizing the natural virus circulating in the community. As such, the vaccine was recommended only for children greater than 9 years of age who had already been exposed to the virus.

Should I be concerned that my child will develop ADE after receiving a vaccination?

Today’s routinely recommended vaccines do not cause ADE. If they did, like those described above, they would be removed from use. Phase III clinical trials are designed to uncover frequent or severe side effects before a vaccine is approved for use.

Read more on ADE here.

Read more from the new study below:

Antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) of infection is a safety concern for vaccine strategies. In a recent publication, Li et al. (Cell 184 :1-17, 2021) have reported that infection-enhancing antibodies directed against the N-terminal domain (NTD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein facilitate virus infection in vitro, but not in vivo. However, this study was performed with the original Wuhan/D614G strain. Since the Covid-19 pandemic is now dominated with Delta variants, we analyzed the interaction of facilitating antibodies with the NTD of these variants. Using molecular modelling approaches, we show that enhancing antibodies have a higher affinity for Delta variants than for Wuhan/D614G NTDs. We show that enhancing antibodies reinforce the binding of the spike trimer to the host cell membrane by clamping the NTD to lipid raft microdomains. This stabilizing mechanism may facilitate the conformational change that induces the demasking of the receptor binding domain. As the NTD is also targeted by neutralizing antibodies, our data suggest that the balance between neutralizing and facilitating antibodies in vaccinated individuals is in favor of neutralization for the original Wuhan/D614G strain. However, in the case of the Delta variant, neutralizing antibodies have a decreased affinity for the spike protein, whereas facilitating antibodies display a strikingly increased affinity. Thus, ADE may be a concern for people receiving vaccines based on the original Wuhan strain spike sequence (either mRNA or viral vectors). Under these circumstances, second generation vaccines with spike protein formulations lacking structurally-conserved ADE-related epitopes should be considered.The aim of the present study was to evaluate the recognition of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variants by infection enhancing antibodies directed against the NTD. The antibody studied is 1054 (pdb file #7LAB) which has been isolated from a symptomatic Covid-19 patient¹. Molecular modelling simulations were performed as previously described². Two currently circulating Delta variants were investigated, with the following mutational patterns in the NTD :

• - G142D/E154K (B.1.617.1)
• - T19R/E156G/del157/del158/A222V (B.1.617.2)

Each mutational pattern was introduced in the original Wuhan/D614G strain, submitted to energy minimization, and then tested for antibody binding. The energy of interaction (ΔG) of the reference pdb file #7LAB (Wuhan/D614G strain) in the NTD region was estimated to -229 kJ/mol⁻¹. In the case of Delta variants, the energy of interaction was raised to -272 kJ.mol⁻¹(B.1.617.1) and -246 kJ.mol⁻¹ (B.1.617.2). Thus, these infection enhancing antibodies not only still recognize Delta variants but even display a higher affinity for those variants than for the original SARS-CoV-2 strain.The global structure of the trimeric spike of the B.1.617.1 variant in the cell-facing view is shown in Figure 1A. As expected, the facilitating antibody bound to the NTD (in green) is located behind the contact surface so that it does not interfere with virus-cell attachment. Indeed, a preformed antibody-NTD complex could perfectly bind to the host cell membrane. The interaction between the NTD and a lipid raft is shown in Figure 1B, and a whole raft-spike-antibody complex in Figure 1C. Interestingly, a small part of the antibody was found to interact with the lipid raft, as further illustrated in Figures 1D-E. More precisely, two distinct loops of the heavy chain of the antibody encompassing amino acid residues 28-31 and 72-74, stabilize the complex through a direct interaction with the edge of lipid raft (Figure 1F). Overall, the energy of interaction of the NTD-raft complex was raised from -399 kJ.mol⁻¹ in absence of the antibody to -457 kJ.mol⁻¹ with the antibody. By clamping the NTD and the lipid raft, the antibody reinforces the attachment of the spike protein to the cell surface and thus facilitates the conformational change of the RBD which is the next step of the virus infection process².

Figure 1Infection enhancing antibodies recognize the NTD of Delta variants. A. Molecular model of the Delta B.1.617.1 spike trimer as viewed from the host cell surface (chains A, B and C in cyan, yellow and purple, respectively), with the NTD and RBD of each chain indicated. The 1054 antibody is in green. B. Spike trimer with the B subunit bound to a lipid raft (with 6 ganglioside GM1 molecules). C. Trimolecular [spike-antibody-raft] complex. D. Focus on the NTD-antibody complex bound to the lipid raft. E. Secondary structures of the NTD (yellow) and the antibody (green) bound to lipid raft gangliosides. F. The 1054 antibody clamps the NTD and the edge of the lipid raft.

27 minutes ago, jsdarkstar said:

News Flash:

 Iveremectin: It has been proven highly effective against Covid and pushed back the Delta variant very quickly in India. 

Proof? Link? 

Trumpbotsmakecrapup.com

Just now, Procus said:

No - you're going to have to google this yourself.  I'm not your research assistant and I'm not going through this whole thread to show you where I already posted it.

Haha. so you can't support your claims with facts or evidence. Ok.

Here's my research. I just googled the word. This is what comes up. (Both the FDA and the AMA recommend not taking medication meant for animals.)

American Medical Association calls for 'immediate end' to use of ivermectin for COVID-19

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/570519-american-medical-association-calls-for-immediate-end-to-use-of-ivermectin

The American Medical Association (AMA) is calling for the "immediate end" to the use of ivermectin to treat COVID-19, and for doctors to stop prescribing it for that purpose, amid a spike in the use of the drug. 

Ivermectin, often used as a deworming agent in animals and sometimes for humans, is not approved to treat COVID-19 and has not been shown to work for that purpose. Poison control centers have recorded a five-fold increase in calls related to ivermectin, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.  

The AMA, the country's largest doctors group, is now joining in warning against use of the drug, joining the Food and Drug Administration and the CDC.  

Why You Should Not Use Ivermectin to Treat or Prevent COVID-19

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19

 

The FDA has received multiple reports of patients who have required medical support and been hospitalized after self-medicating with ivermectin intended for horses.

Here’s What You Need to Know about Ivermectin

• FDA has not approved ivermectin for use in treating or preventing COVID-19 in humans. Ivermectin tablets are approved at very specific doses for some parasitic worms, and there are topical (on the skin) formulations for head lice and skin conditions like rosacea. Ivermectin is not an anti-viral (a drug for treating viruses).
• Taking large doses of this drug is dangerous and can cause serious harm. 
• If you have a prescription for ivermectin for an FDA-approved use, get it from a legitimate source and take it exactly as prescribed. 
• Never use medications intended for animals on yourself. Ivermectin preparations for animals are very different from those approved for humans. 

7 minutes ago, Procus said:

Do you care that vaccinated people are also getting sick?

 

Yes. i care that the Unvaccinated are giving Covid to the Vaccinated and that over 90% of infections and deaths are among the unvaccinated who are doing everything they can to keep Covid in our lives forever.