**Official Philadelphia 76ers Thread 2022/2023 Regular Season*

[rambo]

Not from tonight but F it.

[JayEcho]

good game from that starters..  i HOPE HOPE HOPE they bring the same on monday...  and the bench shows up with some rest.  way too close for my liking.

edit:

though knowing what is coming wednesday..  i would not fault the sixers for resting embiid.

[BirdsFanBill]

I’m a Ben hater but have to say his game has stepped up as of late. Hopefully he can keep it up especially as we play better teams. 

[JayEcho]

7 minutes ago, rambo said:

Not from tonight but F it.

one for tonight! 

 

[JayEcho]

5 minutes ago, BirdsFanBill said:

I’m a Ben hater but have to say his game has stepped up as of late. Hopefully he can keep it up especially as we play better teams. 

for the first part, i just can't hate someone who went through "the process" with the team and continues to do so.  someone who joel is having fun playing with.  i want that man happy on the team.  especially a player who brings SOMETHING to the team (see: elite defense).  i do get frustrated at times though.  and hands down, agree with the second part. 🍻

[BirdsFanBill]

23 minutes ago, JayEcho said:

for the first part, i just can't hate someone who went through "the process" with the team and continues to do so.  someone who joel is having fun playing with.  i want that man happy on the team.  especially a player who brings SOMETHING to the team (see: elite defense).  i do get frustrated at times though.  and hands down, agree with the second part. 🍻

By Ben hater I mean im of the opinion he’s never gonna become the second star we need to actually compete for a chip. But he’s surprising me a bit lately. We will see, I hope I’m wrong and I root for the guy but it’s been tough. 

[JayEcho]

1 hour ago, BirdsFanBill said:

By Ben hater I mean im of the opinion he’s never gonna become the second star we need to actually compete for a chip. But he’s surprising me a bit lately. We will see, I hope I’m wrong and I root for the guy but it’s been tough. 

i get frustrated at simmons...  but when i do..  i remind myself there's countless talking heads who always praise him.  which say he's a star.  and then whenever a blockbuster trade comes up involving the sixers, where we would be getting "one of the best players in the league"...  it's ben who's the centerpiece of the trade for us.  and it's not just as a salary match.  there was a report from back in december which said the rockets were demanding simmons in a trade for harden.  so they did not just want a salary match, they wanted a star too that they could build around...  which is ben.

so, even if i'm frustrated at ben...  i think and ask myself if i'm missing something.  maybe he's just off for a game or two or in a funk -- or worse off playing with an injury.  then i try and climb back down off that cliff and remember ben's team mates love him too.  especially embiid.

edit:

my girl has this pillow she really loves and likes to use.  i can't explain it.  it's just a damn pillow to me.  but if i were to replace that pillow with some comfort, contour, gell filled, state of the art better pillow or whatever...   she'd have my head on a platter.

maybe it's the same with embiid.  we think we see a better fit for embiid with this guy or that guy...  but if we move simmons, joel could HATE it.  that guy may put more points on the stat sheet than ben ever could, but what if it just throws embiid off in some way?  would we really want that?  we get points in ben's spot..  but now joel is off.

grass ain't always greener sometimes.

[ToastJenkins]

Keeping ben is familiar and therefore feels safe

You dont win titles without taking the risks. Thats what the process is all about

[JayEcho]

2 hours ago, ToastJenkins said:

Keeping ben is familiar and therefore feels safe

You dont win titles without taking the risks. Thats what the process is all about

that is understandable.  but you also have to weigh those risks.  what concerns me about people who wanted to trade the farm for harden is they called out simmons for being a liability in the playoffs, but somehow wanted to sweep this under the rug:

James Harden's disappearing act in another playoff fourth quarter is so on brand it's painful to watch - CBSSports.com

NBA playoffs: James Harden disappeared in Rockets Game 5 loss to GSW (usatoday.com)

How James Harden's postseason failures are defining his career (larrybrownsports.com)

Maybe James Harden Really Isn't Built For the Playoffs (thebiglead.com)

and remember, houston and morey did everything for harden in houston.  morey traded for guys harden wanted and built a team around harden.

...and harden can lose with stars around him.  just ask the cavs.  on a sixers team, he wouldn't have the luxury of having a "third" star.  it would just be him and embiid.

could harden finally win in the post season now that he's on the nets?  sure.  but who's to say that it won't be kd & kyrie doing the heavy lifting?

could you imagine the meltdown here if we got harden and he pulled off an "on brand" disappearing act in the post season?  if nothing changes and all the pressure is still on embiid to lift this team through the playoffs, because harden once again went poof?  we wouldn't even be able to get harden a "third star" to potentially hide him on this team because we would've traded the farm just to get him.

heaven forbid the sixers turn into a lottery team after the harden trade and whoever has our draft picks (houston?) is picking in our spot for the next couple of years..  ALONG with having ben and maxey.

so, what do we do?  stay pat and keep ben, knowing what we know about him?  yes!  if the choice is between potentially the above and keeping ben..  100% keep ben, maxey, thybulle, and all the picks we would've given up to get harden.  i think that is what morey weighed when looking at the trade.  i don't like grabbing my ankles and while a harden trade could have given us a chance for a championship, it probably gave us a greater chance of grabbing our ankles for the foreseeable future.

i am not opposed to trading ben...  heck, i am not opposed to trading anyone.  they're all fair game (even *gasp* embiid).  but the trades HAVE to make sense and we HAVE to make off like millionaires and not paupers in the exchange.  so, i'll trust morey.  he can trade ben and prove all the "gm speak" people correct...  but i'd raise my eyebrows.

i know there's people here who say "i lack knowledge" and love to put themselves above me for whatever reason, maybe their own insecurities...  but i believe i bring valid concerns. 

[Right4thePicking]

15 hours ago, BirdsFanBill said:

I’m a Ben hater but have to say his game has stepped up as of late. Hopefully he can keep it up especially as we play better teams. 

I hope Darryl doesn't make a trade that ruins our depth and chemistry. I want a five or six year run not a one year shoot to the top and flame out.

[ToastJenkins]

17 minutes ago, Right4thePicking said:

I hope Darryl doesn't make a trade that ruins our depth and chemistry. I want a five or six year run not a one year shoot to the top and flame out.

Feels like the window will go as embiids health does

[Right4thePicking]

Kyle lowry is not the answer.

[Right4thePicking]

2 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Feels like the window will go as embiids health does

So you call up Cleveland and get one of their young stud guards. Stay young. No time to get old quick.

[JayEcho]

7 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

Feels like the window will go as embiids health does

i don't think so...

we keep simmons.  why?  for the same reasons other teams want simmons from us.  to build around him.  i think we can all agree, simmon's career is trajecting to be longer than embiid's.

why not..  when embiid's health starts to decline...  start pulling off what other teams wanted to do with simmons (since we keep/kept him)...  and draft / acquire a stretch five?  instead of watching another franchise use OUR picks and OUR guys (cause a simmons trade apparently would also cost us more of our guys and our draft picks), WE use them?  have a continuation that extends BEYOND embiid's health?

having simmons "feels safe", but it also guarantees us a future with at least one star on our team.  a star other teams would build around too, if they (could) acquire him.

[Khani1]

11 minutes ago, Right4thePicking said:

So you call up Cleveland and get one of their young stud guards. Stay young. No time to get old quick.

Don't think Sexton is attainable.

[JayEcho]

i think if we were to ask morey to give us a list of 1-5's which could drop 30 on any given night, be offensive powerhouses..  he would give us a phonebook's (remember those?) list of names.

i think if we were to ALSO turn around and ask morey to name players currently in the nba who can GUARD a 1-5 which could score 30 on any given night, the list would be MUCH MUCH shorter.

even though i love embiid and know he's a phenominal defender in his own right, that list probably would not include him.  let's not kid ourselves, while embiid is another top level defender that we have, him at the top of the 3-point line, guarding a quick 1 that is a known scorer, would NOT be ideal.

morey can find elite scorers.  they could be a dime a dozen for him.  morey would be much more hard pressed to find that one defender he can rely on to shut down an elite scoring 1-5 on any given night.

that's just ben's defense.  he also known to have elite court vision AND is a rebounder.  he brings so much to this team AND looks to have a long career doing it too.  a person can grow old playing elite defense, being an amazing assist machine, and have the technique to get rebounds.  an elite scorer, depending on the offensive style, can be out of the league in a couple of years.

and some people want to put ben on the block and "get what surprises us"?  or trade at a loss?

[HazletonEagle]

[JayEcho]

1 minute ago, HazletonEagle said:

please, explain and share your knowledge with me on why a ben simmons trade is feasible.

i have yet to really hear anything substantial from you which surmounts to more than hot takes...  and if it's "embiid's health/prime window".  i've already gone over that, and do not need to hear it.

[HazletonEagle]

First of all, he cant guard 1-5. Thats an exaggeration. He wouldnt fare well matched up against a center for a full game. He can guard 1-4. Other guys who can do that are guys like Trevor Ariza, and Andre Robinson for example, who were not 1st overall picks. They were role players. 

Your post above, what it did was talk about his offense and accept his shortcomings, which is the same as overlooking his offensive shortcomings because you think his defense makes it worth it. You present your case in such a way that makes him sound like a top 3 player in the league based on his defensive acumen, vs a player who can score 25ppg, of which you state there is much longer list of guys capable of doing so.

But there is a stat that we can use to quantify if we really are getting an even trade off. IS his defense so good, that we can really say we just need to live with his offense because his defense is so valuable? You use assists to support that argument, but assists are far from the whole picture on offense. So we can look at BPM as a stat that balances his offensive BPM, vs his Defensive BPM. To quantify how his defensive contributions are balanced out by his offensive shortcomings.

First... looking at the list of players currently scoring 25ppg this season (your established criteria for elite scoring to compare to his elite defense), there are 14 of them.

 

Now, looking at Ben's BPM, he ranks 44th in the league. Because while his DBPM is 2nd in the league, at 2.7, his OBPM is all the way down at 102nd in the league at -0.4.

This stat indicates that his defensive contributions are far and away wiped out by how bad he is on offense. 

 

Now, if you really want to stick with your assists stat to say, hes actually pretty good on offense even though he doesnt score! We can look at his PER to see just how efficient he is. It will factor in his assists, with his shooting percentage, and turnovers, etc.. more of a complete picture of his offensive game. 

Although Ben ranks 6th in assists per game, he ranks 72nd in PER. I dont even want to begin typing the long list of embarrassing names our 1st round pick ranks behind in this stat.

 

Another general stat that takes in to account his whole game, instead of individual stat categories that you can just cherry pick to make your argument sound good is his Value over Replacement Player. He ranks 45th in the league in VORP. Guys we have discussed trading for in here such as Harden, and even LaVine, are better in this stat category. 

 

Now, for your assertion that the list of players who defend as well as Ben fewer than the list of players who can score 25ppg- Even his defensive win shares are just 10th in the league. Remember, the player you are comparing him against, that 25ppg player- there are 14 of them. So... for him to be 10th in a defensive ranking which is his calling card when being compared to an offensive achievement that only 14 guys are doing right now... it shows that the scarcity of guys who can play defense at his level is not actually much more than the guys who can score at an elite level. Youve overestimated the value of his defensive skillset compared to someone with a better offensive skillset. 

Just like with OBPM vs DBPM, if we balance offensive win shares vs DWS by looking at overall Win Shares, he ranks 45th. 

 

Basically, every stat that balances his defensive contributions with his lack of offense disproves your opinion that his defense is so good it makes him a rare, must have player compared to the rest of the league. In fact (backed by relevant stats) hes not in the top 40 of the league as an overall player right now. 

 

Those are my long list of stats, each of which destroy your elementary arguments. I know @DaEagles4Life has already shown you his RAPTOR stat which also destroys your argument but you just keep ignoring these facts like a flat earther. Now shut up. Youre wrong.

 

[JayEcho]

19 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

First of all, he cant guard 1-5. Thats an exaggeration. He wouldnt fare well matched up against a center for a full game. He can guard 1-4. Other guys who can do that are guys like Trevor Ariza, and Andre Robinson for example, who were not 1st overall picks. They were role players. 

Your post above, what it did was talk about his offense and accept his shortcomings, which is the same as overlooking his offensive shortcomings because you think his defense makes it worth it. You present your case in such a way that makes him sound like a top 3 player in the league based on his defensive acumen, vs a player who can score 25ppg, of which you state there is much longer list of guys capable of doing so.

But there is a stat that we can use to quantify if we really are getting an even trade off. IS his defense so good, that we can really say we just need to live with his offense because his defense is so valuable? You use assists to support that argument, but assists are far from the whole picture on offense. So we can look at BPM as a stat that balances his offensive BPM, vs his Defensive BPM. To quantify how his defensive contributions are balanced out by his offensive shortcomings.

First... looking at the list of players currently scoring 25ppg this season (your established criteria for elite scoring to compare to his elite defense), there are 14 of them.

Now, looking at Ben's BPM, he ranks 44th in the league. Because while his DBPM is 2nd in the league, at 2.7, his OBPM is all the way down at 102nd in the league at -0.4.

This stat indicates that his defensive contributions are far and away wiped out by how bad he is on offense. 

Now, if you really want to stick with your assists stat to say, hes actually pretty good on offense even though he doesnt score! We can look at his PER to see just how efficient he is. It will factor in his assists, with his shooting percentage, and turnovers, etc.. more of a complete picture of his offensive game. 

Although Ben ranks 6th in assists per game, he ranks 72nd in PER. I dont even want to begin typing the long list of embarrassing names our 1st round pick ranks behind in this stat.

Another general stat that takes in to account his whole game, instead of individual stat categories that you can just cherry pick to make your argument sound good is his Value over Replacement Player. He ranks 45th in the league in VORP. Guys we have discussed trading for in here such as Harden, and even LaVine, are better in this stat category. 

Now, for your assertion that the list of players who defend as well as Ben fewer than the list of players who can score 25ppg- Even his defensive win shares are just 10th in the league. Remember, the player you are comparing him against, that 25ppg player- there are 14 of them. So... for him to be 10th in a defensive ranking which is his calling card when being compared to an offensive achievement that only 14 guys are doing right now... it shows that the scarcity of guys who can play defense at his level is not actually much more than the guys who can score at an elite level. Youve overestimated the value of his defensive skillset compared to someone with a better offensive skillset. 

Just like with OBPM vs DBPM, if we balance offensive win shares vs DWS by looking at overall Win Shares, he ranks 45th. 

Basically, every stat that balances his defensive contributions with his lack of offense disproves your opinion that his defense is so good it makes him a rare, must have player compared to the rest of the league. In fact (backed by relevant stats) hes not in the top 40 of the league as an overall player right now. 

Those are my long list of stats, each of which destroy your elementary arguments. I know @DaEagles4Life has already shown you his RAPTOR stat which also destroys your argument but you just keep ignoring these facts like a flat earther. Now shut up. Youre wrong.

 

thank you, i enjoyed the read..  and i also wanted you to bring up my argument about ben's defense not being "elite".  let's see what embiid has to say about ben's defense, when SPECIFICALLY asked about his own contributions:

that was after the boston game.  if embiid is saying it..  i bet doc is saying it..  and i bet morey is saying it.  and you yourself said:

Quote

First of all, he cant guard 1-5. Thats an exaggeration. He wouldnt fare well matched up against a center for a full game. He can guard 1-4.

with embiid on the floor with him, we're basically shutting down two of a team's best scorers.

i'm listening to the coaches, i'm listening to the gm, and most of all..  i am listening to our players who ALL love simmons.

you can throw all the "you lack knowledge" at me all you want.  but i'm pushing what our team is pushing.  and so far, we're winning because of it..  yes?

so, before you get all high and mighty on someone and get on your high horse.  maybe you should open your eyes.  i know what ben's numbers are, but i also know how our franchise and our team loves him.

[HazletonEagle]

3 minutes ago, JayEcho said:

thank you, i enjoyed the read..  and i also wanted you to bring up my argument about ben's defense not being "elite".  let's see what embiid has to say about ben's defense, when SPECIFICALLY asked about his own contributions:

that was after the boston game.  if embiid is saying it..  i bet doc is saying it..  and i bet morey is saying it.  and you yourself said:

with embiid on the floor with him, we're basically shutting down two of a team's best scorers.

i'm listening to the coaches, i'm listening to the gm, and most of all..  i am listening to our players who ALL love simmons.

you can throw all the "you lack knowledge" at me all you want.  but i'm pushing what our team is pushing.  and so far, we're winning because of it..  yes?

so, before you get all high and mighty on someone and get on your high horse.  maybe you should open your eyes.  i know what ben's numbers are, but i also know how our franchise and our team loves him.

I already told you whats wrong with listening to a GM and coach speak. You ignored a long post of every stat in the book showing how his defense doesnt actually make up for his lack of offense as much as youd like to believe it does. All for some coach-speak about a player they literally had packing his bags last week. 

You are choosing ignorance. This is why as you cant be taken seriously no matter how much you act like you desire to be. 

[JayEcho]

22 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

I already told you whats wrong with listening to a GM and coach speak. You ignored a long post of every stat in the book showing how his defense doesnt actually make up for his lack of offense as much as youd like to believe it does. All for some coach-speak about a player they literally had packing his bags last week. 

You are choosing ignorance. This is why as you cant be taken seriously no matter how much you act like you desire to be. 

if everyone in the franchise (including the players) are saying it, is it really "coach/gm speak"?  where do we draw the line from "coach/gm speak" to they are actually telling the truth about someone?

i know you don't want to believe this team may actually want to keep simmons cause you want simmons gone.  you want morey to WANT simmons gone.

and who said his bags were packed?  did morey?  did ben?  did rivers?  was it his agent in a press conference?  oh it was pompey.  maybe from this article?

76ers were so sure of James Harden deal that Ben Simmons was told to expect a trade, per report - CBSSports.com

you would HAVE to be stupid to turn down the trade we offered houston, if it's to be believed to be what was rumored.  fertita "hating" morey or not.  i choose to believe rockets leaked those offers "from the sixers" to increase their haul from the nets, which they did beautifully.

and why would morey NOT have to shoot down the trade rumors?

i've already linked youtube videos showing morey THE MAN HIMSELF say he was not going to trade ben or joel.  he didn't HAVE to..  he did so at the very beginning.

...and if the trade was nearly done and ben's and whoever's bags were packed.  why have we not heard any fallout?  no player being disgruntled?  feeling cast out?  usually there's SOME fallout after being shunned by your current team.

again, i choose to believe when the gm, the coach, the players, and basically the FRANCHISE say they love a guy...  they may actually LOVE the guy and want to keep him.

what have you given backing up simmons' trade was/is looming?  all you provide are hot takes and speculative links from people "close to the source".

have fun with that and i will have fun with morey saying and doing what he says he is.  again, if he trades simmons..  i'll raise an eyebrow, but it's "his team".

oh, and once again..  get off your high horse.

[HazletonEagle]

3 minutes ago, JayEcho said:

if everyone in the franchise (including the players) are saying it, is it really "coach/gm speak"?  where do we draw the line from "coach/gm speak" to they are actually telling the truth about someone?

i know you don't want to believe this team may actually want to keep simmons cause you want simmons gone.  you want morey to WANT simmons gone.

and who said his bags were packed?  did morey?  did ben?  did rivers?  was it his agent in a press conference?  oh it was pompey.  maybe from this article?

76ers were so sure of James Harden deal that Ben Simmons was told to expect a trade, per report - CBSSports.com

you would HAVE to be stupid to turn down the trade we offered houston, if it's to be believed to be what was rumored.  fertita "hating" morey or not.  i choose to believe rockets leaked those offers "from the sixers" to increase their haul from the nets, which they did beautifully.

...and if the trade was nearly done and ben's and whoever's bags were packed.  why have we not heard any fallout?  no player being disgruntled?  feeling cast out?  usually there's SOME fallout after being shunned by your current team.

i've already linked youtube videos showing morey THE MAN HIMSELF say he was not going to trade ben or joel.

again, i choose to believe when the gm, the coach, the players, and basically the FRANCHISE say they love a guy...  they may actually LOVE the guy and want to keep him.

what have you given backing up simmons' trade was/is looming?  all you provide are hot takes and speculative links from people "close to the source".

have fun with that and i will have fun with morey saying and doing what he says he is.  again, if he trades simmons..  i'll raise an eyebrow, but it's "his team".

oh, and once again..  get off your high horse.

you dont get it...

Because Ben doesnt Fing care. Everyone else knows that by now. How dont you?

[JayEcho]

2 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

you dont get it...

Because Ben doesnt Fing care. 

and what about the player(s) on the move with ben?  they don't care either?

to make this whole "ben is about to be traded" scenario real seems to take a whole lot more work than to you know..  believe he was not gonna be traded in the first place because doc loves him, morey loves him, the players love him...  basically the franchise.

...and usually, it's the simplest answer that wins.

p.s.

are you off your high horse, yet?  

[HazletonEagle]

Just now, JayEcho said:

and what about the player(s) on the move with ben?  they don't care either?

to make this whole "ben is about to be traded" scenario real seems to take a whole lot more work than to you know..  believe he was not gonna be traded in the first place.

...and usually, it's the simplest answer that wins.

p.s.

are you off your high horse, yet?  

Thybulle. A 2nd round, 2nd year bench player who had to work his way back in to the rotation under the new coach is in no position to make a stink about being traded. Are you really Fing serious?