eagle45 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Again, here’s the core problem. There are qbs who didn’t start their career off well as passers through 2 years…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t not have good arms and were short…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t have great recognition, decision making, progressions/vision…and demonstrated that sometimes it can be coached. Hurts is all 3. Every other qb had everything else besides those weaknesses. Again, Hurts packs in all 3. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 24 minutes ago, KDUB1510 said: Both those figures for seattle in 12' & 13' were top 10 in the NFL at that time(9th to be exact) while the eagles 2021 figure was 12th. Obviously not a massive difference but it just goes to show that the game has changed. And besides, we are comparing the individual players, not the output of their offenses. It's like when you guys try to use total yards/TD's to defend Hurts against QB's that got their production the way most QB's do, by passing the ball. Wilson threw 10 more TD's than Hurts as a true rookie a decade ago with a worse offensive line and essentially the same level of pass catchers. Sidney Rice, Golden Tate & Zach Miller is nothing to write home about. I'd probably take Smitty, Goedert & Quez over them if you give me 2012 Wilson. You can put the parameters wherever you want to reaffirm your opinion. I'm not going to stop you, but I made my point about scoring. If Hurts throws for a TD or the team rushes for a TD, we still score. If Hurts only threw 16 TDs and we only averaged 17-18 pts per game, I'd be concerned, but since we were 12th in scoring at 26.1 ppg, 8th in the red zone and 4th on 3rd downs, I'm not so concerned --- especially since I expect him to keep becoming a better player. Hurts had some TD passes dropped and some called back (only 1 was for ineligible man downfield despite what the revisionists claim). There was also 1 that Goedert caught and they ruled down inside the one, that we didn't challenge but should have since he scored, but we punched it in on the ground anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeanMeanGM Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Jalen Hurts is never going to be a good QB until he takes his earring out 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDUB1510 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 12 hours ago, brkmsn said: You can put the parameters wherever you want to reaffirm your opinion. I'm not going to stop you, but I made my point about scoring. If Hurts throws for a TD or the team rushes for a TD, we still score. If Hurts only threw 16 TDs and we only averaged 17-18 pts per game, I'd be concerned, but since we were 12th in scoring at 26.1 ppg, 8th in the red zone and 4th on 3rd downs, I'm not so concerned --- especially since I expect him to keep becoming a better player. Hurts had some TD passes dropped and some called back (only 1 was for ineligible man downfield despite what the revisionists claim). There was also 1 that Goedert caught and they ruled down inside the one, that we didn't challenge but should have since he scored, but we punched it in on the ground anyway. Reaffirm what opinion? That Russell Wilson is, has been and always will be a better player than Hurts and that they arent comparable? That's fact. I dont need any parameters to prove that. People that argue for Hurts need parameters like total yards/TD's to defend him because he is lackluster at the most important thing a QB needs to do which is pass the football. Would've been nice if we could've had some of that 26 ppg when we were down 31-0 in Tampa. That same bucs defense gave up 30 and over 360 passing yards to the Rams the very next week. Same would've happened if we had a legitimate passer under center instead of Hurts because guys were open all game. I could'nt care less about his rushing TD's when 9/10 came from within the 10 yard line and our starting RB had ZERO. That's not sustainable. I pray you're right about this kid though man. Eagles will be up $hits creek if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brkmsn Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 9 minutes ago, KDUB1510 said: Reaffirm what opinion? That Russell Wilson is, has been and always will be a better player than Hurts and that they arent comparable? That's fact. I dont need any parameters to prove that. . LOL. Prediction is not fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDUB1510 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 hours ago, brkmsn said: LOL. Prediction is not fact. LMFAO okay man you got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iggles_Phan Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 hours ago, eagle45 said: Again, here’s the core problem. There are qbs who didn’t start their career off well as passers through 2 years…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t not have good arms and were short…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t have great recognition, decision making, progressions/vision…and demonstrated that sometimes it can be coached. Hurts is all 3. Every other qb had everything else besides those weaknesses. Again, Hurts packs in all 3. Yeah, but he works hard. If only that was all it took. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 9 hours ago, brkmsn said: Absolutely. Go ahead and compare. Excuse for what? In 2012, Seattle averaged 25.8 pts per game (including two defensive TDs and 1 KR TD). In 2021, the Eagles averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 2 defensive TDs). In 2013, Seattle averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 3 defensive TDs). So, whether you go by Wilson's first year or second year to compare to Hurts' 2021 season (Hurts' 2nd year in the league), the Eagles offense revolving around Hurts (and his so-called limitations) still slightly outscored Seattle's offense, even though Hurts threw for fewer TDs. I really don't understand why Hurts' total passing TDs are an issue when as a team, we still scored TDs and ended the season with 25 rushing TDs. Scoring is scoring. Just because William Perry ran for a TD in a Super Bowl does not mean he was a more valuable runner than Walter Payton. Payton helped get the team down there and the offense finished with a TD. Ditka shouldn't have tried to be cute there, but the lack of SB TDs doesn't make me question Payton's greatness. As of right now, Wilson is a successful 10 year vet that has consistently been an NFL top 10 QB every season. Hurts has not yet become that level of QB. The argument for now is whether or not Hurts can become a perennial top 10 QB. And what top ten QB can he be better than,? Mahomes, Herbert, Burrow, Rodger, Allen, Stafford, Jackson, Brady, Murray, Prescott, Carr, Cousins, Rodgers. So far Mac Jones looks way better as a QB. At best he can make it to 13th and that's completely ignoring Lawrence, Fields and Lance from last year taking an actual year two leap and then the insane class next year that could have up to 7 first round QBs. The mountain Hurts would have to climb to be a top ten QB with his traits and skills is about damn near impossible. I say in two years he will be closer to out of the top 20 instead of entering the top 10 Does saying top ten just sound right coming out of your mouth so you just say it without thinking? It's a tremendous benchmark, but there is so much more to it than working hard. It's where the HoFers hang out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 9 hours ago, eagle45 said: Again, here’s the core problem. There are qbs who didn’t start their career off well as passers through 2 years…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t not have good arms and were short…and went on to great success. We compare Hurts to them. There are qbs who didn’t have great recognition, decision making, progressions/vision…and demonstrated that sometimes it can be coached. Hurts is all 3. Every other qb had everything else besides those weaknesses. Again, Hurts packs in all 3. I've been saying this! His only elite trait is his mobility which may be the weakest trait in the QB tree. It's a bonus at best. Everything else is adequate at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwestbrook36 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 54 minutes ago, Shalodeep said: I've been saying this! His only elite trait is his mobility which may be the weakest trait in the QB tree. It's a bonus at best. Everything else is adequate at best. Hurts is an inaccurate teddy Bridgewater. If we want to throw around comparisons of players with limited throwing ability. This is a case where hurts legs might have an advantage over a similar QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 21 hours ago, eagle45 said: As the Hurts camp says, like it or not, he's going to be the unchallenged starting QB for 2022. And as the anti-Hurts camp says, he's got zero excuses now. I think both camps can agree on both of the above. The 2022 season will play out; but the verdict on such hotly contested debates is seldom black and white. Hurts will improve. He's not going to have a Josh Allen-like year 3, no way. His passing metrics will inch closer to average. That passing productivity combined with his running ability will produce combined numbers that start to look impressive. That will make the Hurts camp say he's good enough to be the guy for the future. The still below average passing will cause the haters to still hate. I think all parties agree that the value of him developing into that franchise guy beats using a valuable pick(s) to start again. The difference is that one side thinks he will (in time) and one thinks he won't (fast enough or ever). As you said, we will see at the end of 2022. It's his season to prove that he is worth more time and alot more money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike030270 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 21 hours ago, Shalodeep said: This is too much context That's why I always ask what numbers would be enough. If he gets 35 total touchdowns but we only win 8 games, the improvement is just junk time stats again. If he only gets to 28 total, but we win 13....who can argue with that? It would be the Alex Smith situation without a Mahomes sitting in the wings He's got the weapons that should give a QB 4000+yds but I don't see Hurts throwing 4k+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: He's got the weapons that should give a QB 4000+yds but I don't see Hurts throwing 4k+ But those aren't the weapons he likes to use. He is more trusting of his own athletic ability than his ability to distribute the ball Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike030270 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Shalodeep said: But those aren't the weapons he likes to use. He is more trusting of his own athletic ability than his ability to distribute the ball Then he shouldn't be the QB and should look into being a RB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: Then he shouldn't be the QB and should look into being a RB Trust me when I say, I don't like Hurts as a QB at all lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManchesterEagle Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Shalodeep said: But those aren't the weapons he likes to use. He is more trusting of his own athletic ability than his ability to distribute the ball 1 hour ago, Mike030270 said: Then he shouldn't be the QB and should look into being a RB Why don’t you boys wait until he has had 8 games with a much better WR group before you make these assumptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike030270 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, ManchesterEagle said: Why don’t you boys wait until he has had 8 games with a much better WR group before you make these assumptions? He had Smith last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said: Why don’t you boys wait until he has had 8 games with a much better WR group before you make these assumptions? Smith, Ertz/Goedert, Gainwell from the backfield isn't a bad collection of receiving option. Why doesn't he learn to not cut half the field off by running right before you say he isn't a bum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDUB1510 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 52 minutes ago, Shalodeep said: Smith, Quez, Ertz/Goedert, Gainwell from the backfield isn't a bad collection of receiving option. Why doesn't he learn to not cut half the field off by running right before you say he isn't a bum? 56 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: He had Smith last year... Furthermore, unlike the guy he keeps getting compared to(Josh Allen), Hurts threw passes to EIGHT 1st round picks (Ridley, Jeudy, Smith, Ruggs, Waddle, Lamb, OJ Howard & Irv Smith) during his time in college and was never considered a good passer or even a guy who had the potential to become one. He was bottom third in every passing category last year when he had IMO, two pro bowl caliber pass catchers in Smith & Goedert, a legitimate deep threat in Quez and one of the best pass blocking lines in the NFL. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Tannehill, he's still a vastly better QB than Hurts. AJB didnt have much competition for targets in Tennessee outside of Corey Davis. He'll now be competing with Smith, Goedert & Quez for targets with a QB who isnt a great volume passer. Anyone expecting Hurts to turn into a stud passer because of the AJB addition is deluded. I'd love to be proven wrong though. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, KDUB1510 said: Furthermore, unlike the guy he keeps getting compared to(Josh Allen), Hurts threw passes to EIGHT 1st round picks (Ridley, Jeudy, Smith, Ruggs, Waddle, Lamb, OJ Howard & Irv Smith) during his time in college and was never considered a good passer or even a guy who had the potential to become one. He was bottom third in every passing category last year when he had IMO, two pro bowl caliber pass catchers in Smith & Goedert, a legitimate deep threat in Quez and one of the best pass blocking lines in the NFL. Regardless of what anyone thinks of Tannehill, he's still a vastly better QB than Hurts. AJB didnt have much competition for targets in Tennessee outside of Corey Davis. He'll now be competing with Smith, Goedert & Quez for targets with a QB who isnt a great volume passer. Anyone expecting Hurts to turn into a stud passer because of the AJB addition is deluded. I'd love to be proven wrong though. I wish post of the day was an option again because this is it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManchesterEagle Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Mike030270 said: He had Smith last year... Yes and Smith broke the rookie record and in the one meaningful game without Hurts put up 22 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shalodeep Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said: Yes and Smith broke the rookie record and in the one meaningful game without Hurts put up 22 yards. It took him an extra game to get there and minshew was the one who force fed him early on in that Dallas game. Also, 900 yards isnt the most impressive for rookies. The eagles don't have a rich history in wide outs so breaking it with an extra game in a pass heavy league isn't the biggest achievement. It may be a gold star here, but would just be considering a very productive rookie season on other teams with actual QBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDUB1510 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said: Yes and Smith broke the rookie record and in the one meaningful game without Hurts put up 22 yards. A testament to Smith's greatness and an indictment on Hurts. Cut the film on and you'll see that Smith would've cruised to 1200 yards with a legit passer. He had 860 yards in 15 games with Hurts. AJB had 869 in 13 games with Tannehill. Smith was our #1 WR last year and had a 7 week stretch & a 4 week stretch where he didnt score a TD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike030270 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 39 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said: Yes and Smith broke the rookie record and in the one meaningful game without Hurts put up 22 yards. Smith should have had more yards for the season but Hurts limited him Do you think Hurts will throw for over 4000yds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManchesterEagle Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mike030270 said: Smith should have had more yards for the season but Hurts limited him Do you think Hurts will throw for over 4000yds? If he and AJ Brown both stay healthy, yes I do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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