The official Hurts/Minshew/Stinnett/Strong/EJ Perry containment thread

[EazyEaglez]

Just thought I’d post this to trigger the Hurts Hate Squad. Anyways get back to your Hurts whining and crying. 

 

[Shalodeep]

5 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Just thought I’d post this to trigger the Hurts Hate Squad. Anyways get back to your Hurts whining and crying. 

 

Ah yes. Definitely the same level of coaching and building blocks up to that point. Both standing at 6"5 and can see the whole field without rolling out of the pocket. both coached by father, Saban, Riley and born with a bazooka of an arm. How did we miss such a thing. Must be all that hate in our hearts. Thank you brother EazyEaglez for bringing this comparison back in our lives so we can finally accept this false equivalency as reality. 

[brkmsn]

2 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

Ah yes. Definitely the same level of coaching and building blocks up to that point. Both standing at 6"5 and can see the whole field without rolling out of the pocket. both coached by father, Saban, Riley and born with a bazooka of an arm. How did we miss such a thing. Must be all that hate in our hearts. Thank you brother EazyEaglez for bringing this comparison back in our lives so we can finally accept this false equivalency as reality. 

You guys are parrots. One of you brings up height like it's absolutely relevant (forget that Wilson and Brees  are much shorter and manage to see the field just fine) ... another calls everything "false equivalency." News flash: Comparisons are not false equivalency. Conclusions based on comparisons can be, but the comparison itself is not. For example, If I said Russel Wilson is short and has won a Super Bowl, then Hurts will also win a Super Bowl, because he is considered short --- that would be false equivalency. But demonstrating that short QBs can still be good QBs by providing examples is not a fallacy. Likewise, if a person is going to argue that a QB that had accuracy problems in year two will certainly have the same problem in year 3 is ignoring examples of others that demonstrate that isn't always the case. Crying, "FALSE EQUIVALENCE!!!" at every turn is a joke when the only people drawing conclusions here are (in this case) Hurts-haters. 

p.s.   you forgot to mention "noodle arm."

[Shalodeep]

35 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

You guys are parrots. One of you brings up height like it's absolutely relevant (forget that Wilson and Brees  are much shorter and manage to see the field just fine) ... another calls everything "false equivalency." News flash: Comparisons are not false equivalency. Conclusions based on comparisons can be, but the comparison itself is not. For example, If I said Russel Wilson is short and has won a Super Bowl, then Hurts will also win a Super Bowl, because he is considered short --- that would be false equivalency. But demonstrating that short QBs can still be good QBs by providing examples is not a fallacy. Likewise, if a person is going to argue that a QB that had accuracy problems in year two will certainly have the same problem in year 3 is ignoring examples of others that demonstrate that isn't always the case. Crying, "FALSE EQUIVALENCE!!!" at every turn is a joke when the only people drawing conclusions here are (in this case) Hurts-haters. 

p.s.   you forgot to mention "noodle arm."

I love when someone reads a whole thing and then focuses on one thing lol I brought up the coaching (which wasn't equal for most of their QB careers) and skill set and traits (height and arm strength). When you bring up Russell Wilson as a height, remember he has to run a special offense where he is ad libbing constantly and so far away from his line that they look awful when the reality is he step away from the pocket to see the field. Hurts rolls right to do the same thing, but at a much less efficient level considering he cut the field in half and doesn't have the arm Wilson does to cover the ground he gives up to see the field.  Height isn't necessary, but damn if it doesn't help (Brady 6"4, Stafford 6"3, Foles 6"6, big Ben 6"5, Mahomes 6"3) doesn't help Hurts does some weird slouch while in the pocket too to make himself feel even smaller. Hurts is only an inch shorter than Rodgers (6"2) and plays like hes closer to Murray's height (5"10). Allen seems like every Hurt boy fantasy, but ignoring the obvious size and arm difference, and when brought up they bring up cartoonish like things like "noodle arm" .... He doesn't have a strong arm, and it is a "noodle arm" next to Allen. He is a "midget" compared to Allen. If Allen had received the coaching that Hurts had received through college, he problem wouldn't of had those two rough years...now that he had quality coaching all those traits have a direction. Hurts doesn't have those traits....at all. So to expect him to come anywhere near those for more than a few games a year is asking for disappointment. 

So a recap so you don't ignore anything

-Hurts isn't short, but plays a short man's game

-Hurts doesn't have the same building blocks as Allen so you should probably look somewhere else for a comparison. Hell use Murray if you need to, just don't compare arm strength or accuracy because you will be eaten alive

-Wilson isn't a good example because you ignore his deep ball ability and the depth he plays back from the line to see the field. He covers his deficiency with a strength that's not just running

 

[devpool]

Numbers only tell part of the story. Look at the games hurts has thrown over 300 yards and probably half of them are in blowout losses. He's a garbage time king, that's why he's a fantasy darling. He doesn't turn the ball over very often -to his credit- he runs the ball a lot and he racks up garbage time yards and TDs. 

Hurts was also missing wide open receivers consistently all year last year, what good is aj brown going to do if hurts misses him as much as he missed Smith and Watkins last year?

Allen looked promising with no receivers, they gave him Diggs and knox and he exploded. Hurts has not shown a quarter of what Allen did AS A PASSER and he had a far better offense last year than Allen did his first two. 

[Cochis_Calhoun]

1 hour ago, devpool said:

Numbers only tell part of the story. Look at the games hurts has thrown over 300 yards and probably half of them are in blowout losses. He's a garbage time king, that's why he's a fantasy darling. He doesn't turn the ball over very often -to his credit- he runs the ball a lot and he racks up garbage time yards and TDs. 

Hurts was also missing wide open receivers consistently all year last year, what good is aj brown going to do if hurts misses him as much as he missed Smith and Watkins last year?

Allen looked promising with no receivers, they gave him Diggs and knox and he exploded. Hurts has not shown a quarter of what Allen did AS A PASSER and he had a far better offense last year than Allen did his first two. 

This post is revisionist horseshit, there was genuine debate about whether McDermott was putting his job on the line and wasting a stellar defense if he persisted with Allen after his second year, he didn't look promising he looked like he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn a lot of the time his first two years, PFF said it was clear he was struggling to grasp NFL concepts and that Daboll was trying to simplify the offense for him to smooth it out, the difference between year 2 and year 3 was night and day.

[eagle45]

12 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Just thought I’d post this to trigger the Hurts Hate Squad. Anyways get back to your Hurts whining and crying. 

 

Will be interesting to compare them in year 3 post big WR additions.

[CouchKing]

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

Will be interesting to compare them in year 3 post big WR additions.

Did Hurts beat Dallas yet?

[Diehardfan]

13 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Just thought I’d post this to trigger the Hurts Hate Squad. Anyways get back to your Hurts whining and crying. 

 

That kind of BS doesn't trigger us. We just laugh at it the same way we laugh at the people who love Hurts.

[devpool]

3 hours ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

This post is revisionist horseshit, there was genuine debate about whether McDermott was putting his job on the line and wasting a stellar defense if he persisted with Allen after his second year, he didn't look promising he looked like he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn a lot of the time his first two years, PFF said it was clear he was struggling to grasp NFL concepts and that Daboll was trying to simplify the offense for him to smooth it out, the difference between year 2 and year 3 was night and day.

Weird, almost like his 3rd year was when Diggs showed up. Allen had the tools before Diggs showed up and that was obvious. He had a 20 point jump in quarterback rating from his first to second season as well in which he doubled his touchdowns, increased completion by 6 points (still not great %) and threw a couple less INTs.

PFF lol

[eagle45]

As the Hurts camp says, like it or not, he's going to be the unchallenged starting QB for 2022.

And as the anti-Hurts camp says, he's got zero excuses now.

I think both camps can agree on both of the above.  The 2022 season will play out; but the verdict on such hotly contested debates is seldom black and white.  Hurts will improve.  He's not going to have a Josh Allen-like year 3, no way.  His passing metrics will inch closer to average.  That passing productivity combined with his running ability will produce combined numbers that start to look impressive.  That will make the Hurts camp say he's good enough to be the guy for the future.  The still below average passing will cause the haters to still hate.

 

[matchew88]

What if he doesn't have a weak arm, nd changing his mechanics shows the actual arm strength?

[Shalodeep]

55 minutes ago, devpool said:

Weird, almost like his 3rd year was when Diggs showed up. Allen had the tools before Diggs showed up and that was obvious. He had a 20 point jump in quarterback rating from his first to second season as well in which he doubled his touchdowns, increased completion by 6 points (still not great %) and threw a couple less INTs.

PFF lol

This is too much context

15 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

As the Hurts camp says, like it or not, he's going to be the unchallenged starting QB for 2022.

And as the anti-Hurts camp says, he's got zero excuses now.

I think both camps can agree on both of the above.  The 2022 season will play out; but the verdict on such hotly contested debates is seldom black and white.  Hurts will improve.  He's not going to have a Josh Allen-like year 3, no way.  His passing metrics will inch closer to average.  That passing productivity combined with his running ability will produce combined numbers that start to look impressive.  That will make the Hurts camp say he's good enough to be the guy for the future.  The still below average passing will cause the haters to still hate.

 

That's why I always ask what numbers would be enough. If he gets 35 total touchdowns but we only win 8 games, the improvement is just junk time stats again. If he only gets to 28 total, but we win 13....who can argue with that? It would be the Alex Smith situation without a Mahomes sitting in the wings 

[ToastJenkins]

7 hours ago, brkmsn said:

You guys are parrots. One of you brings up height like it's absolutely relevant (forget that Wilson and Brees  are much shorter and manage to see the field just fine) ... another calls everything "false equivalency." News flash: Comparisons are not false equivalency. Conclusions based on comparisons can be, but the comparison itself is not. For example, If I said Russel Wilson is short and has won a Super Bowl, then Hurts will also win a Super Bowl, because he is considered short --- that would be false equivalency. But demonstrating that short QBs can still be good QBs by providing examples is not a fallacy. Likewise, if a person is going to argue that a QB that had accuracy problems in year two will certainly have the same problem in year 3 is ignoring examples of others that demonstrate that isn't always the case. Crying, "FALSE EQUIVALENCE!!!" at every turn is a joke when the only people drawing conclusions here are (in this case) Hurts-haters. 

p.s.   you forgot to mention "noodle arm."

now list all the short, weak-armed qbs that failed and lets compare weight of evidence...

8 minutes ago, matchew88 said:

What if he doesn't have a weak arm, nd changing his mechanics shows the actual arm strength?

what if my aunt had balls?

[eagle45]

4 minutes ago, Shalodeep said:

This is too much context

That's why I always ask what numbers would be enough. If he gets 35 total touchdowns but we only win 8 games, the improvement is just junk time stats again. If he only gets to 28 total, but we win 13....who can argue with that? It would be the Alex Smith situation without a Mahomes sitting in the wings 

I want Hurts to become a good enough passer that we can move beyond the "total" stats and the debate that running yards are just as good as passing yards.

He's a passer; his job is to pass.  Running is gravy, not the base of the whole meal.  If his passing productivity can't hang with real NFL starting QBs, then he shouldn't be one himself.

[matchew88]

8 minutes ago, ToastJenkins said:

now list all the short, weak-armed qbs that failed and lets compare weight of evidence...

what if my aunt had balls?

According to the left, she'd still be your aunt and you'd be a transphobe

[Shalodeep]

11 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I want Hurts to become a good enough passer that we can move beyond the "total" stats and the debate that running yards are just as good as passing yards.

He's a passer; his job is to pass.  Running is gravy, not the base of the whole meal.  If his passing productivity can't hang with real NFL starting QBs, then he shouldn't be one himself.

I agree with all this. I'd rather a dual threat means his deep ball is as dangerous as his short passes and nothing to do with his legs. 

[Vileborg]

1 hour ago, matchew88 said:

What if he doesn't have a weak arm, nd changing his mechanics shows the actual arm strength?

The point of mechanics is not just use the arm to throw the football. It's to utilize the body as a fulcrum to generate torque, spin and loft on a football. Mechanics will absolutely extend his range. Hence why, when he did use his mechanics late last year, you saw him throw it 60 yards in the air. Part of his problem with inconsistency last year was that sometimes he set his base and used his mechanics and at other times he just tried to muscle it in there and it fell short.

It's hard to be accurate when the way you throw the football is changing from throw to throw. That's why mechanics and reproducing the same motions are important throw to throw.

[ManchesterEagle]

1 hour ago, eagle45 said:

As the Hurts camp says, like it or not, he's going to be the unchallenged starting QB for 2022.

And as the anti-Hurts camp says, he's got zero excuses now.

I think both camps can agree on both of the above.  The 2022 season will play out; but the verdict on such hotly contested debates is seldom black and white.  Hurts will improve.  He's not going to have a Josh Allen-like year 3, no way.  His passing metrics will inch closer to average.  That passing productivity combined with his running ability will produce combined numbers that start to look impressive.  That will make the Hurts camp say he's good enough to be the guy for the future.  The still below average passing will cause the haters to still hate.

 

This is a sensible post. 

I’m probably viewed as being in the Hurts camp and as you say I expect him to improve and put up some good numbers in what should be a loaded offense. 

But that won’t mean I’ll think he’s the guy for the future. 

I’ve said all along I think he was better than a lot of people give him credit for last year. I also expected the Eagles to give him another year as the clear starter and they have.

But he needs to show some material improvement in certain areas (reads, deep ball, anticipation) for me to think he’s the guy going forward.

 

 

 

 

 

[brkmsn]

9 hours ago, Shalodeep said:

I love when someone reads a whole thing and then focuses on one thing lol I brought up the coaching (which wasn't equal for most of their QB careers) and skill set and traits (height and arm strength). When you bring up Russell Wilson as a height, remember he has to run a special offense where he is ad libbing constantly and so far away from his line that they look awful when the reality is he step away from the pocket to see the field. Hurts rolls right to do the same thing, but at a much less efficient level considering he cut the field in half and doesn't have the arm Wilson does to cover the ground he gives up to see the field.  Height isn't necessary, but damn if it doesn't help (Brady 6"4, Stafford 6"3, Foles 6"6, big Ben 6"5, Mahomes 6"3) doesn't help Hurts does some weird slouch while in the pocket too to make himself feel even smaller. Hurts is only an inch shorter than Rodgers (6"2) and plays like hes closer to Murray's height (5"10). Allen seems like every Hurt boy fantasy, but ignoring the obvious size and arm difference, and when brought up they bring up cartoonish like things like "noodle arm" .... He doesn't have a strong arm, and it is a "noodle arm" next to Allen. He is a "midget" compared to Allen. If Allen had received the coaching that Hurts had received through college, he problem wouldn't of had those two rough years...now that he had quality coaching all those traits have a direction. Hurts doesn't have those traits....at all. So to expect him to come anywhere near those for more than a few games a year is asking for disappointment. 

So a recap so you don't ignore anything

-Hurts isn't short, but plays a short man's game

-Hurts doesn't have the same building blocks as Allen so you should probably look somewhere else for a comparison. Hell use Murray if you need to, just don't compare arm strength or accuracy because you will be eaten alive

-Wilson isn't a good example because you ignore his deep ball ability and the depth he plays back from the line to see the field. He covers his deficiency with a strength that's not just running

 

Whether you like it or not, people can compare any player to any other player they want. The article that has you all bent out of shape merely poses the question, "Will Hurts make a big jump in year 3 like another player did when his team also traded for a legit, experienced productive WR?" OH, THE GALL!!! How could they "compare" a 6'5" QB with God's gift to arm strength with a 6'1" Tim Tebow wannabe? For shame! For shame! You guys crack me up. Since I'll compare whomever the heck I want, I'll use Wilson here. Wilson is very good at deep passes. Not because he has such a big arm, but because he gets the ball out on time and places it better than a lot of other professional QBs (the deep ball that is). His arm strength is no better than Hurts', though. Wentz was 6'5" and he played almost entirely from the shotgun. I'm guessing it had absolutely nothing to do with his height. Mahomes is 6'3" and still does jump passes. QBs that "jump pass" (including Hurts) don't have a good reason to ever do this. It's bad mechanics that leads to weaker, less accurate passes. 

Hurts is a young QB that has a lot of areas to improve --- most noticeably his decision making and processing speed. Some will argue that those things aren't coachable or fixable, but I disagree. Young players come into the NFL and they need to improve in every aspect of the game, but they can only really focus on a few things at a time. Once they get one thing down, they can move on to another area. As they gain experience, the game eventually "slows down" to them. It's reasonable to expect any young player to experience this in their first few seasons. Does that guarantee that Hurts will make good decisions as a result? No, it doesn't. That's something he has to show us or prove to us, to his teammates, and coaches. 

[eagle45]

4 hours ago, brkmsn said:

Whether you like it or not, people can compare any player to any other player they want. The article that has you all bent out of shape merely poses the question, "Will Hurts make a big jump in year 3 like another player did when his team also traded for a legit, experienced productive WR?" OH, THE GALL!!! How could they "compare" a 6'5" QB with God's gift to arm strength with a 6'1" Tim Tebow wannabe? For shame! For shame! You guys crack me up. Since I'll compare whomever the heck I want, I'll use Wilson here. Wilson is very good at deep passes. Not because he has such a big arm, but because he gets the ball out on time and places it better than a lot of other professional QBs (the deep ball that is). His arm strength is no better than Hurts', though. Wentz was 6'5" and he played almost entirely from the shotgun. I'm guessing it had absolutely nothing to do with his height. Mahomes is 6'3" and still does jump passes. QBs that "jump pass" (including Hurts) don't have a good reason to ever do this. It's bad mechanics that leads to weaker, less accurate passes. 

Hurts is a young QB that has a lot of areas to improve --- most noticeably his decision making and processing speed. Some will argue that those things aren't coachable or fixable, but I disagree. Young players come into the NFL and they need to improve in every aspect of the game, but they can only really focus on a few things at a time. Once they get one thing down, they can move on to another area. As they gain experience, the game eventually "slows down" to them. It's reasonable to expect any young player to experience this in their first few seasons. Does that guarantee that Hurts will make good decisions as a result? No, it doesn't. That's something he has to show us or prove to us, to his teammates, and coaches. 

Sometimes they are coachable, sometimes they are not.  The question...and this is MY beef with Hurts...is WHY?????????  When decision making and processing speed are "problems," then you usually tolerate those problems with patience and coaching in QB's with prototypical talent...remember that debate???....guys that are 6'5" with huge arms.  

If you don't have that prototypical talent AND you don't have that decision making and processing speed...then what are we doing here?  Why is that the raw block of granite we are choosing to sculpt?  The short players with middling arms usually have the decision making and processing speed.  The raw guys without that who receive patience have the big frame and big arm.

Hurts has neither.  He's got swag and mobility.  

[Shalodeep]

1 hour ago, brkmsn said:

Whether you like it or not, people can compare any player to any other player they want. The article that has you all bent out of shape merely poses the question, "Will Hurts make a big jump in year 3 like another player did when his team also traded for a legit, experienced productive WR?" OH, THE GALL!!! How could they "compare" a 6'5" QB with God's gift to arm strength with a 6'1" Tim Tebow wannabe? For shame! For shame! You guys crack me up. Since I'll compare whomever the heck I want, I'll use Wilson here. Wilson is very good at deep passes. Not because he has such a big arm, but because he gets the ball out on time and places it better than a lot of other professional QBs (the deep ball that is). His arm strength is no better than Hurts', though. Wentz was 6'5" and he played almost entirely from the shotgun. I'm guessing it had absolutely nothing to do with his height. Mahomes is 6'3" and still does jump passes. QBs that "jump pass" (including Hurts) don't have a good reason to ever do this. It's bad mechanics that leads to weaker, less accurate passes. 

Hurts is a young QB that has a lot of areas to improve --- most noticeably his decision making and processing speed. Some will argue that those things aren't coachable or fixable, but I disagree. Young players come into the NFL and they need to improve in every aspect of the game, but they can only really focus on a few things at a time. Once they get one thing down, they can move on to another area. As they gain experience, the game eventually "slows down" to them. It's reasonable to expect any young player to experience this in their first few seasons. Does that guarantee that Hurts will make good decisions as a result? No, it doesn't. That's something he has to show us or prove to us, to his teammates, and coaches. 

Wilson first 16 games as a starter was 11-5 26 (number seem familiar?) passing touchdowns  3116 yards and 10 picks. Rushing 489 yards 4 touchdowns. Oh, and a 64.1% completion percentage. also drafted a round later.   Also a run first squad.....so wanna actually compare? Let me guess, he was 24 is your excuse

 

 

[KDUB1510]

1 hour ago, Shalodeep said:

Wilson first 16 games as a starter was 11-5 26 (number seem familiar?) passing touchdowns  3116 yards and 10 picks. Rushing 489 yards 4 touchdowns. Oh, and a 64.1% completion percentage. also drafted a round later.   Also a run first squad.....so wanna actually compare? Let me guess, he was 24 is your excuse

 

 

This. Guys that have turned out to be good/great QB's the last decade didnt take 20+ starts to show it. Allen is the only one and even he showed glipses of supreme talent his first two years. Watson, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, Lamar, Dak, Murray, Carr, Wilson, Newton & Luck were all good statistically & by the eye test pretty much right away. Even guys like Mayfield, Wentz, RG3, Cousins etc didnt take 20+ starts to show flashes of brilliance from the pocket. Most of those guys were 1st round picks and all of them are a notch or two or three above Hurts in the arm talent category. Like @eagle45 said, why is Hurts the raw block of granite that we are choosing to sculpt when he doesnt have the prototypical talent you look for(big frame, big arm) or the decision making & processing that you typically find in shorter, less gifted passers? Our backup & UDFA QB literally have more of the of the things you look for in a QB than our starter. There's a reason im so excited to see Strong. He has the prototypicals (6'4 225, rocket arm) & showed good decision making/processing speed with far inferior talent than what Hurts played with in college. I'd rather sculpt that granite than continue to hope and pray Hurts can fix his many deficiencies and become a franchise QB. That's not gonna happen though so i look forward to being proven wrong by Hurts. 

[brkmsn]

1 hour ago, Shalodeep said:

Wilson first 16 games as a starter was 11-5 26 (number seem familiar?) passing touchdowns  3116 yards and 10 picks. Rushing 489 yards 4 touchdowns. Oh, and a 64.1% completion percentage. also drafted a round later.   Also a run first squad.....so wanna actually compare? Let me guess, he was 24 is your excuse

 

 

Absolutely. Go ahead and compare. Excuse for what? In 2012, Seattle averaged 25.8 pts per game (including two defensive TDs and 1 KR TD). In 2021, the Eagles averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 2 defensive TDs). In 2013, Seattle averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 3 defensive TDs). So, whether you go by Wilson's first year or second year to compare to Hurts' 2021 season (Hurts' 2nd year in the league), the Eagles offense revolving around Hurts (and his so-called limitations) still slightly outscored Seattle's offense, even though Hurts threw for fewer TDs. I really don't understand why Hurts' total passing TDs are an issue when as a team, we still scored TDs and ended the season with 25 rushing TDs. Scoring is scoring. Just because William Perry ran for a TD in a Super Bowl does not mean he was a more valuable runner than Walter Payton. Payton helped get the team down there and the offense finished with a TD. Ditka shouldn't have tried to be cute there, but the lack of SB TDs doesn't make me question Payton's greatness. 

As of right now, Wilson is a successful 10 year vet that has consistently been an NFL top 10 QB every season. Hurts has not yet become that level of QB. The argument for now is whether or not Hurts can become a perennial top 10 QB. 

[KDUB1510]

37 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

Absolutely. Go ahead and compare. Excuse for what? In 2012, Seattle averaged 25.8 pts per game (including two defensive TDs and 1 KR TD). In 2021, the Eagles averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 2 defensive TDs). In 2013, Seattle averaged 26.1 pts per game (including 3 defensive TDs). So, whether you go by Wilson's first year or second year to compare to Hurts' 2021 season (Hurts' 2nd year in the league), the Eagles offense revolving around Hurts (and his so-called limitations) still slightly outscored Seattle's offense.

Both those figures for seattle in 12' & 13' were top 10 in the NFL at that time(9th to be exact) while the eagles 2021 figure was 12th. Obviously not a massive difference but it just goes to show that the game has changed. And besides, we are comparing the individual players, not the output of their offenses. It's like when you guys try to use total yards/TD's to defend Hurts against QB's that got their production the way most QB's do, by passing the ball. Wilson threw 10 more TD's than Hurts as a true rookie a decade ago with a worse offensive line and essentially the same level of pass catchers. Sidney Rice, Golden Tate & Zach Miller is nothing to write home about. I'd probably take Smitty, Goedert & Quez over them if you give me 2012 Wilson.