What specific element did Joe Banner bring? Not the first one to use a signing bonus. Not the first one to backload contracts. While he did piss off a lot of players, he wasn't the first to do that. He wasn't even the first to sound like a complete obnoxious cheap ass either. Although he was great at it.

Perhaps one who doesn't follow the league isn't one who can talk on what Joe Banner innovated???? You have to know the league in order to understand if someone was a trail blazer.

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

The value is the value. Because none of that financial value goes into our personal bank accounts, we really don’t care about the business value. All we care about is the entertainment value, and as long as we continue to be entertained the deposits will keep rolling in for Jerry.

Yes Jerry is the benefactor of the league for sure... definitely doesn't make him the most successful.... just the guy who bought the team back then. The next owner of the Cowboys will also then be considered the most successful guy in the league... if that's all that matters?

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Well let's back up a little bit. Howie was a "biz guy" with an ego. It was easy for me to spot the moment he changed and made the decision to learn about the game and be a "football guy". It was the blown call on Reagor when JJ was there for the taking and we saw the Vikes war room explode in happiness, yells and high 5's even before they hit the podium, because they were handed JJ on a platter. I think that national embarrassment woke him up when he "took time off" to learn and be a student of the draft game. I will admit along with 99% of other fans the Hurts pick was a head scratcher, but we see how that turned out and also how the cost of Wentz played out when he went down. TG Foles carried us to the first SB. IDK that Howie would spend all that draft capital on another QB. Since then we have taken late picks or UDFA QB's and made them viable(QB factory). Howie is impressive because he took the time to understand what the scouts looked for and what they were telling him. Now we got Fangio who Howie also listens to and we have the top D in the league because Howie set his ego aside and put the work in and for the first time trusted Fangio enough to draft BTB(back to back) DB's which was a historic first. Ever since the blown Reagor call we have seen stellar drafts. It's very hard to put your ego away, swallow the bullet, but we've seen the pay off. So has Howie with the "best GM" titles. Howie "found" AJ, Howie "found" Barkley, so besides adding to his expertise drafting he also finds "disgruntled" players and finds ways to bring them in. Just really an amazing job. Schwartz was always asked to make due with some not so hot/ second tier players. We changed all that and look at us go now. Just massive kudos I have to give to Howie. His ego remains in check, he doesn't gloat, he merely put together the best overall Eagles team I have seen in my lifetime. AR was always around .500 here. getting Siri in and using the biz CEO HC(see people person) approach has really paid off.

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

DeJean was a round 1 talent that fell due to the injury he had. Bauns career was resurrected by us. McWilliam is nowhere near the talent we expect as of now. Can he get there? Sure. He was a round 5 pick which is usually a "devlopmental" player not really a guy you expect to start year 1. As we see ASmith is now "getting it" and we invest the time. But ASmith has not started yet either and I don't suspect McWilliams will unless he is our last resort

Time will tell.

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

I would feel badly, but it's not my call. It's QB 3,so QB3 should be the one with the higher ceiling not the higher floor. T-R did nothing in Cleveland for them to keep him(and they are still a QB needy team). Maybe we can mold him IDK. McCord has no NFL experience. IMO if they play to a draw, I take McCord because the guy with NFL experience should have NP winning the competition game. if they appear equal, to me that means McCord has the greater potential and I cut T-R or put him on the PS. It's QB3,so really not that important at this point. It's like arguing over who is TE4,does it really matter?

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Howie traded for DT-R for a reason. We aren’t privileged enough to know the reason, and Howie may be ready to cut bait on that reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that none of the four QBs in camp at camp bodies, which is a new situation this year when compared to prior years.

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

I will heartily disagree. You can't put character or team culture in the bank, but if you don't have them your team is bankrupt on the field and in the locker room. Sports is not about money in the bank, there are cap limits for every team. Dullaz has money in the bank but the team is culturally bankrupt. The SB is not about by how much money they have in the bank. it's not a check book balance contest

From a business/ownership perspective whether or not the team is bankrupt on the field is often irrelevant. John D Rockefeller ran Standard Oil in an absolutely culturally bankrupt fashion, and became the richest man in the world. Elon Musk isn’t a morally/culturally bankrupt as Rockefeller, but he is in the same league, and how has that worked out for him.

You are looking at success subjectively rather than objectively. You are also assigning value to something that is fleeting/etherial. You can’t pay your bills with it.

You are also describing indirect success rather than direct success. We as fans experience the results on the field indirectly. Lurie’s ability to come up with the cash Howie needs is also something we only experience indirectly. The NFL continues to exist because the owners make money.

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Would you rather have the biggest bank balance or hoist the Lombardi?

In our capitalistic society the vast majority of people want money in the bank more than they want an additional orgasm.

22 minutes ago, mattwill said:

The value is the value. Because none of that financial value goes into our personal bank accounts, we really don’t care about the business value. All we care about is the entertainment value, and as long as we continue to be entertained the deposits will keep rolling in for Jerry.

Who cares? So his bank balance grows and he still has no recent trophys. The fans care about winning the Lombardi, not Jerry's bank balance.

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

Jerry has lots of money. He tries to "BUY" SB's. That is a poor business model in football. The players don't play together as a team, We tried that model once and also failed. Lurie learned, Jerry has not learned. Dullaz has some player issues almost annually and while that brings in free advertising(press coverage), it does nothing to improve the team as disgruntled players hold Jerry hostage because they know he has the money.

If it is a poor business model, why is he the owner reaping the greatest financial benefit year after year after year? His "audience” apparently sees value regardless of ho good the team is on the field. He had the foresight to officially brand the Cowboys as America’s Team, and unofficially brand it as Latin America’s Team. He takes those successful decisions to the bank every day.

17 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Howie traded for DT-R for a reason. We aren’t privileged enough to know the reason, and Howie may be ready to cut bait on that reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that none of the four QBs in camp at camp bodies, which is a new situation this year when compared to prior years.

https://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/news/eagles-agree-to-acquire-dorian-thompson-robinson-from-browns-in-exchange-for-kenny-pickett Got another draft pick from the deal. Pickett was expendable. Traded for T-R who was a player with experience as QB 3 and got a draft pick with that deal. IMO there was no way we would re-sign Pickett, so move him out and keep the "factory" going

1 hour ago, GreenbleedinNC said:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3917657/zack-baun Look at the stat lines, not what round he was drafted in. Look at the magic of Fangio and what a great culture brings to the game. We saw what the Saints didn't. Identifying "fits" is what Howie et al are excellent at. If you think being a "people person" is irrelevant perhaps you need to incorporate that into what makes a successful sports team. In football would you rather have 500 million in the bank, or hoist the Lombardi? Howie missed on Huff(who at the time was an up and comer) but he didn't "fit". Howie is not perfect, but he fixes his mistakes as fast as possible and now FA's are begging to come play for us. Why would that be? It's not how much money Lurie has in the bank you know?

What Fangio saw in Baun had nothing to do with culture. In fact I doubt Fangio spends more than a minute in every day thinking about culture. Culture, as we have told Ham over and over and over again is the province of Sirianni. Fangio is all about good old fashioned football knowledge/knowhow.

9 minutes ago, mattwill said:

From a business/ownership perspective whether or not the team is bankrupt on the field is often irrelevant.

I disagree. It's what sports is about. If players don't play as a team and just as individuals,your team is bankrupt on the field and will not see success regardless of how much you spend

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

I would feel he is the 4th best so they cut him as I would expect them to do.

But in the realm of Dynasty building what a player is right now isn’t the only consideration. It is important to keep in mind how that player fits into the succession plan.

55 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

Yep... all business and no football... there it is

The NFL isn’t in the business of football. It is in the business of entertainment.

1 minute ago, mattwill said:

What Fangio saw in Baun had nothing to do with culture. In fact I doubt Fangio spends more than a minute in every day thinking about culture. Culture, as we have told Ham over and over and over again is the province of Sirianni. Fangio is all about good old fashioned football knowledge/knowhow.

The team built a culture or being People persons. The players like playing here, there is little to no drama, so once again I disagree. Fangio has a great knack for finding players that FIT,who fit the culture and who are maybe a bit on the hungry side to get a ring. That is the goal of football,to get the ring no matter how you accomplish that. no fans gives a crap how much Lurie or Jerry has in the bank. I'm sure they both love a big bank balance as does everyone, but the yearly goal is the Lombardi. If Jerry could buy the trophy,he would do so

13 minutes ago, mattwill said:

In our capitalistic society the vast majority of people want money in the bank more than they want an additional orgasm.

Then you can never successfully own a sports franchise because you don't understand it's a team sport unlike golf. boxing or tennis which is an individual sport. The "orgasm" is lifting the Lombardi, nothing else matters and it's a trophy you can't buy with a checkbook

6 minutes ago, mattwill said:

But in the realm of Dynasty building what a player is right now isn’t the only consideration. It is important to keep in mind how that player fits into the succession plan.

AKA people person. See it yet? It has to be there. It's assembling the correct people to do the jobs you require. They can be "cheap" rookies as we see with Q, who WILL be paid later. We have no locker room drama because all the players play as one,that is the succession plan besides the talent and coaching/devlopment aspect

56 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

What innovations... you keep saying innovations... what are they. Give us specifics.

Before Banner all the employees under the General Manager were football people. Banner expanded the role of the General Manager to include bean counters performing analytics. In effect he was deploying AI before there was any actual AI computerization. He boldly went where no one had gone before … into spreadsheets and computer models. No one had ever approached the Cap the way Banner approached it. He understood leverage and used it. No one had ever done that prior to him. Wharton created a sports business major because of Banner.

Just now, GreenbleedinNC said:

AKA people person. See it yet? It has to be there. It's assembling the correct people to do the jobs you require. They can be "cheap" rookies as we see with Q, who WILL be paid later. We have no locker room drama because all the players play as one,that is the succession plan besides the talent and coaching/devlopment aspect

It's why Dullaz has failed to get the trophy the last 28 years. They don't "get it"

1 hour ago, joemas6 said:

Then Matt would think Lurie would be the most successful person in the NFL because he would own the most valuable organization.

No. Success is what you create, not what is bequeathed to you. Lurie would never have the oil wildcatter mindset that Jerry had when he bought the Cowboys. Lurie more than likely wouldn’t have seen the relevance of the opportunity that Latin America’s Team presented.

41 minutes ago, mattwill said:

The flop on the JJ pick was the rude awakening Howie needed after also giving up power to Chip Kelly. It was what turned this team around IMO

42 minutes ago, mattwill said:

Time will tell.

Of course

35 minutes ago, mattwill said:

You are conveniently ignoring the fact that Howie traded for DT-R for a reason. We aren’t privileged enough to know the reason, and Howie may be ready to cut bait on that reason, but it doesn’t change the fact that none of the four QBs in camp at camp bodies, which is a new situation this year when compared to prior years.

We swapped DTR for Pickett and received better draft compensation. Plus DTR is under team control for an extra year. We don't know that any of them are not JAG. You are assuming that.

56 minutes ago, joemas6 said:

I also do not think free agency and trades for players are out of the question either... not everything has to be a draft pick ...certainly not a high draft pick

I agree 100%. However, top level free agents are always more costly than top level draftees.

25 minutes ago, mattwill said:

From a business/ownership perspective whether or not the team is bankrupt on the field is often irrelevant. John D Rockefeller ran Standard Oil in an absolutely culturally bankrupt fashion, and became the richest man in the world. Elon Musk isn’t a morally/culturally bankrupt as Rockefeller, but he is in the same league, and how has that worked out for him.

You are looking at success subjectively rather than objectively. You are also assigning value to something that is fleeting/etherial. You can’t pay your bills with it.

You are also describing indirect success rather than direct success. We as fans experience the results on the field indirectly. Lurie’s ability to come up with the cash Howie needs is also something we only experience indirectly. The NFL continues to exist because the owners make money.

More left field than Ham