5 minutes ago, DaBirds said:

Jordan played in a watered down expansion era. Dude was being guarded by Mugsy. You couldn’t play zone so he was one on one vs unathletic slop. He never beat Bird and only beat the Pistons after they were old and injured and then recruited their best defender after.

Bill Laimbeer was the same height and weight as Kevin Durant. The "enforcer” wouldn’t have been enforcing crap. You give a 6 8 dude that’s 264 lbs a defense that can’t play zone against him with those scrawny 80s/90s dudes and he’s breaking them in half. Not to mention the basic defenses back the were run by smaller, weaker, slower defenders with switches like molasses.

Old bitter nostalgic guys like Barkley Have warped NBA history into delusion.

You just regurgitate the same arguments all the young people say and it's clear you never watched 90's basketball. Also, so what he didn't beat Bird? The Bulls weren't even a real contender at that point, and it was MJ's second and third year in the league. It'd be like criticizing Lebron for losing to a great Spurs team at age 22, which makes no sense.

I think it's funny to call players in that era unathletic when they didn't need load management to make it through an 82 game season. Guys today may look more athletic, but they lack conditioning and have awful fundamentals.

18 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

I'm bringing up Phil for the same reason you're bringing up their teammates. Both were beneficiaries of their support systems. Only one of them achieved that level of success on multiple teams with multiple coaches. For him to pull it off with 4 different teams, especially at his age, would be insane.

He would've

So winning a championship on 3 different teams is greater than 3-peating twice? If that's the case, Robert Horry is the GOAT. He's won 7 rings with 3 different teams - we should crown him right now with your logic 😂

Just now, MF POON said:

So winning a championship on 3 different teams is greater than 3-peating twice? If that's the case, Robert Horry is the GOAT. He's won 7 rings with 3 different teams - we should crown him right now with your logic 😂

Was Horry finals MVP?

5 minutes ago, MF POON said:

The Bulls weren't even a real contender

Oh, interesting. So the team around him matters?

1 minute ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Was Horry finals MVP?

Does Lebron have more finals MVPS than MJ?

Just now, MF POON said:

Does Lebron have more finals MVPS than MJ?

He does if we're counting how many they have on different teams.

47 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

I'm pretty sure their roster is full. They'll have to cut one of their 2 non-guaranteed guys. Worth it.

7 minutes ago, MF POON said:

You just regurgitate the same arguments all the young people say and it's clear you never watched 90's basketball. Also, so what he didn't beat Bird? The Bulls weren't even a real contender at that point, and it was MJ's second and third year in the league. It'd be like criticizing Lebron for losing to a great Spurs team at age 22, which makes no sense.

I think it's funny to call players in that era unathletic when they didn't need load management to make it through an 82 game season. Guys today may look more athletic, but they lack conditioning and have awful fundamentals.

I’m never going to convince you and this argument will never end but I grew up watching Jordan and he was a God to all of us. It’s just things change. Bednarik swore these young guy couldn’t hang in his era yet Aaron Donald would literally remove his spine from his body. Things change.

Just now, we_gotta_believe said:

Oh, interesting. So the team around him matters?

Yeah, and I never said it didn't. I think the argument many people make for Lebron is that he somehow carried awful teams to a championship, when that is not the case.

Miami was a gr

2 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

He does if we're counting how many they have on different teams.

You're not even making sense now. What is more, 4 or 6?

2 minutes ago, MF POON said:

Yeah, and I never said it didn't. I think the argument many people make for Lebron is that he somehow carried awful teams to a championship, when that is not the case.

Miami was a gr

You're not even making sense now. What is more, 4 or 6?

You keep undercutting your own argument without even realizing it

3 hours ago, BigEFly said:

For @Joe Ball

Roger took a beating his entire career. The below is from Google AI:

• Total Concussions: Estimated up to 20 total head injuries, including six instances where he was knocked unconscious.

• Retirement Decision: Walked away after the 1979 season despite a lucrative offer to keep playing, following medical warnings from a Cornell doctor that another concussion could have severe consequences.

• Era of Play: Played during a violent 1970s era devoid of modern concussion protocols or heavy quarterback protection.

Stance on Legal Action and Health

• No Lawsuit: Declined to participate in former players' legal action against the NFL, noting he accepted the physical realities of football.

• Expressed Concern: Acknowledged worries about potential long-term cognitive effects when discussing former teammate Tony Dorsett's health struggles.

45 minutes ago, RememberTheKoy said:

Maybe it's the camera angle but he looks alot thinner - which is a good thing I think

Just now, DaBirds said:

I’m never going to convince you and this argument will never end but I grew up watching Jordan and he was a God to all of us. It’s just things change. Bednarik swore these young guy couldn’t hang in his era yet Aaron Donald would literally remove his spine from his body. Things change.

I don't really see players today as more athletic, I just see an evolved, up-tempo game. I think guys from that era could play in today's league; the question would just be how would they play? Would they give up their attacking playstyle of drives and dunks/layups, post moves, and the midrange shot? or would they shelve all of that to some degree and shoot more 3's?

Also, football is a totally different sport. Basketball size matters to a degree, but skill beats it. If being bigger/athletic mattered more, Olajuwon wouldn't have mopped the floor with Shaq to sweep Orlando in the finals. Heck, just look at this past finals. There's absolutely no reason why the Spurs should've blown a 29 point lead, but they did it by playing stupid basketball, which was jacking up three point shots.

57 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Jordan massively benefitted from the archaic rules of the era. LeBron, with his size and strength, would've been just as good in Jordan's era. We can't say the same about Jordan in this era.

MJ didn't benefit as much as the newer rules allow...he was mauled everytime he tried to go in the paint, hard fouls...not these touch fouls they call nowdays. He didn't get the extra step they no longer call traveling, or the double dribbles that don't get called with players palming the ball mid dribble. LeBron would have folded going up against the Pistons, Knicks, and Celtics of the late 80s and early 90s. It's truly not even an argument.

MJ didn't get the option to recruit a dream team and MJ went 6-0 in the finals...he never lost in a finals.

2 minutes ago, mikemack8 said:

Maybe it's the camera angle but he looks alot thinner - which is a good thing I think

That video is from 2021

6 minutes ago, Joe Ball said:

Roger took a beating his entire career. The below is from Google AI:

• Total Concussions: Estimated up to 20 total head injuries, including six instances where he was knocked unconscious.

• Retirement Decision: Walked away after the 1979 season despite a lucrative offer to keep playing, following medical warnings from a Cornell doctor that another concussion could have severe consequences.

• Era of Play: Played during a violent 1970s era devoid of modern concussion protocols or heavy quarterback protection.

Stance on Legal Action and Health

• No Lawsuit: Declined to participate in former players' legal action against the NFL, noting he accepted the physical realities of football.

• Expressed Concern: Acknowledged worries about potential long-term cognitive effects when discussing former teammate Tony Dorsett's health struggles.

The players may (or may not) be better today but there was nothing like the NFL in the 60s, 70s and 80s when you could play defense and hit the hell out of people. Defense and NFL Films showing the violent hits by Butkus and Lambert and the rest made the NFL.

@Joe Ball Big Cowboys news

7 minutes ago, Joe Ball said:

MJ didn't benefit as much as the newer rules allow...he was mauled everytime he tried to go in the paint, hard fouls...not these touch fouls they call nowdays. He didn't get the extra step they no longer call traveling, or the double dribbles that don't get called with players palming the ball mid dribble. LeBron would have folded going up against the Pistons, Knicks, and Celtics of the late 80s and early 90s. It's truly not even an argument.

MJ didn't get the option to recruit a dream team and MJ went 6-0 in the finals...he never lost in a finals.

He lobbied hard against the change in '02 and literally admitted that he would've put up far worse numbers if zone defense was legal.

1 minute ago, LeanMeanGM said:

@Joe Ball Big Cowboys news

What an idiot...he must have been absolutley tanked to go to jail for a DUI in WI...he looks horrible. If only he coujld have been taken into custody in his playing days for "performing poorly on standard field..."

1 hour ago, we_gotta_believe said:

Jordan massively benefitted from the archaic rules of the era. LeBron, with his size and strength, would've been just as good in Jordan's era. We can't say the same about Jordan in this era.

Any former nba player who played against MJ said he could have averaged 40+ a game easily in today’s era.

But I’m sure you know more than these guys.

6 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

You keep undercutting your own argument without even realizing it

No I'm not. You're just trying to say "Lebron hasn't won as much, because he wasn't in as great of a position MJ was in." I'd argue against that, but it's probably pointless. Also, yours is a silly what if argument. Trying to lessen the importance of a player's impact, just because they have a great coach is silly.

It's like criticizing Tim Duncan for being coached by Popovich. Or saying Tom Brady isn't that great of a QB because he had Belichick. You're playing the what if game without also acknowledging that Bron has been in really good situations and has had really good players around him for most of his career. I think that Miami team that lost to the Mavs had a better roster, but they lost 4-2 after going up 2-0. What's your excuse for that?

1 minute ago, MF POON said:

No I'm not. You're just trying to say "Lebron hasn't won as much, because he wasn't in as great of a position MJ was in." I'd argue against that, but it's probably pointless. Also, yours is a silly what if argument. Trying to lessen the importance of a player's impact, just because they have a great coach is silly.

It's like criticizing Tim Duncan for being coached by Popovich. Or saying Tom Brady isn't that great of a QB because he had Belichick. You're playing the what if game without also acknowledging that Bron has been in really good situations and has had really good players around him for most of his career. I think that Miami team that lost to the Mavs had a better roster, but they lost 4-2 after going up 2-0. What's your excuse for that?

I never criticized him from having a great coach. I'm saying having a great coach was a benefit Jordan had that LeBron didn't as a rebuttal to your argument that LeBron "needed" a support system that Jordan didn't need. I'm calling you out for cherry picking but apparently it's going over your head.

11 minutes ago, Joe Ball said:

MJ didn't benefit as much as the newer rules allow...he was mauled everytime he tried to go in the paint, hard fouls...not these touch fouls they call nowdays. He didn't get the extra step they no longer call traveling, or the double dribbles that don't get called with players palming the ball mid dribble. LeBron would have folded going up against the Pistons, Knicks, and Celtics of the late 80s and early 90s. It's truly not even an argument.

MJ didn't get the option to recruit a dream team and MJ went 6-0 in the finals...he never lost in a finals.

This.

Although, I think Lebron could've played in that era, but I can understand that it's hard to picture it due to how he acts in today's league. I think maybe he would've had a tougher mentality had he played back then, and his game would be a little different.

5 minutes ago, EaglePhan1986 said:

Any former nba player who played against MJ said he could have averaged 40+ a game easily in today’s era.

But I’m sure you know more than these guys.

And Jordan admitted it himself that he would've put up worse numbers. But I'm sure you know more than Jordan.