Carson Wentz discussion: no new topics about Wentz.

[manz2821]

4 minutes ago, Swoop said:

Or Drew Brees, who obviously eventually went to NO, but posted bottom tier numbers his second year starting and followed it up with an amazing year and a good year.

So that's what? 4 Hall of Famers now?

Yeah.  I'm not a Wentz lover or a hater.  I love the Eagles.  I personally want to see how Wentz plays with a new coaching stuff.  Its all on him now.  He can either sink or swim but I think its worth's the team time and investment to see how he does next year.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

4 hours ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

You certainly can have that opinion.  It does not make you a hater..  Just don't get offended and overeact when others don't agree with you on such a polarizing subject.

But my point here is that it's the extreme views that lead to taking one extreme side or the other. I think that is true of society in general these days.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

33 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

But my point here is that it's the extreme views that lead to taking one extreme side or the other. I think that is true of society in general these days.

I do understand.  Hear me out. When there are only two options...in this case, stay or go....all you have is one extreme or the other.  If someone believes strongly that Carson should stay for the Eagles to succeed (me) and the other thinks he is done and must go for the Eagles to succeed (you), there is very little middle ground to meet in.  I respect your opinion.  Its up to you to show respect for mine.  "Agree to Disagree" is the only middle ground, because you can not change my mind and I can not change yours.  The reaction to that simple fact/disagreement is where it gets extreme.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I do understand.  Hear me out. When there are only two options...in this case, stay or go....all you have is one extreme or the other.  If someone believes strongly that Carson should stay for the Eagles to succeed (me) and the other thinks he is done and must go for the Eagles to succeed (you), there is very little middle ground to meet in.  I respect your opinion.  Its up to you to show respect for mine.  "Agree to Disagree" is the only middle ground.

 

33 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

But my point here is that it's the extreme views that lead to taking one extreme side or the other. I think that is true of society in general these days.

The extremity view is coming from the people that want Carson gone.   Posters like myself and @E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles have acknowledged that Carson did not play well last year, but we believe that he can get back to his previous form with a coach who is not an idiot trying to put square pegs in round holes.  Those who want Carson gone can not acknowledge anything good he has ever done and say he has sucked his entire time in the NFL.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

19 minutes ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

I do understand.  Hear me out. When there are only two options...in this case, stay or go....all you have is one extreme or the other.  If someone believes strongly that Carson should stay for the Eagles to succeed (me) and the other thinks he is done and must go for the Eagles to succeed (you), there is very little middle ground to meet in.  I respect your opinion.  Its up to you to show respect for mine.  "Agree to Disagree" is the only middle ground, because you can not change my mind and I can not change yours.  The reaction to that simple fact/disagreement is where it gets extreme.

Oh I respect your opinion and your view bud no doubt about that. I'm sorry if I've ever made it seem that I don't. 

14 minutes ago, downundermike said:

 

The extremity view is coming from the people that want Carson gone.   Posters like myself and @E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles have acknowledged that Carson did not play well last year, but we believe that he can get back to his previous form with a coach who is not an idiot trying to put square pegs in round holes.  Those who want Carson gone can not acknowledge anything good he has ever done and say he has sucked his entire time in the NFL.

See that's where these extremist views come from. Just because I don't think Carson can turn it around here doesn't mean I don't recognise that he's played at a high level in the NFL. 

[Thrive]

2 hours ago, Swoop said:

In 2015 Luck was 32nd in QB rating. Where would that put him in terms of starting QBs?

And no, I'm not assuming Wentz will do anything. My point was even Hall of Famer Kurt Warner went through a several year stretch of playing terribly before turning it around and being a top QB again while getting to another Super Bowl. Okay, he changed teams. Big deal. Was he as young or early into his contract as Wentz? No.

So there's a Hall of Famer and a would be Hall of Famer (if not for early retirement) within recent history that have done it.

But sure, Wentz is the worst QB in football, has never been good and will be out of the league soon.

 

7 hours ago, Swoop said:

Correct.

Kurt Warner was a SB champion and got hurt, so he had to leave STL. He spent a year in New York and then became one of the worst QBs in the league for the Cardinals before regaining form and going to another SB. Twist the argument however you want to for your narrative, there are examples of good/great QBs that have been BAD and turned it around.

Andrew Luck is another example, again somewhat recently.

Here are two statements, pay close attention:

Carson Wentz, for the previous three years was, statistically, a top 10 (roughly) QB.

Carson Wentz in 2020 was one of the worst QBs in football.

Both are factual. 

Why is it then, that there is zero chance that this year was an aberration? 

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Luck get hurt in 2015 and miss a bunch of games? 
If so, then that’s not analogous to the atrocity of a season Carson just had.

I think Peyton Manning’s 2001 season is a decent comparison (but he was still better than Carson) and even he needed a couple of seasons to get back on track.

 

[Swoop]

3 minutes ago, Thrive said:

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Luck get hurt in 2015 and miss a bunch of games? 
If so, then that’s not analogous to the atrocity of a season Carson just had.

He did, but that was never part of the discussion. He said its never happened. Which is false. What causes said decline in play is thrown out the window in that case. Then he proceeds to say that bologna about "one team" to make it more narrow and thusly "harder" to argue against. Regardless, there have been a number of examples in this thread.

The fact that people need to be as precise as possible to try and make an argument is what makes it foolish to begin with, but maybe that's just me.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Thrive said:

 

Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t Luck get hurt in 2015 and miss a bunch of games? 

 

He played in 7 games, and stunk up the joint all but 2 of them

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Thrive said:

I think Peyton Manning’s 2001 season is a decent comparison (but he was still better than Carson) and even he needed a couple of seasons to get back on track.

Having a hall of fame WR will do that

[RememberTheKoy]

If both Hurts and Wentz are on the roster come training camp and there isn't an open competition then that will be a major mistake and will be sending the wrong message to their eat of the team for the first year HC. 

[MillerTime]

I find it interesting that the Colts hired Press Taylor. I find that as a bigger sign Carson might be heading there over anything else.

[T-1000]

He's gone. Wentz has had days to come out and say he wants to be here and all of a sudden he's silent. Lurie has had multiple opportunities to say Wentz is their guy, so has Howie and today Sirianni did. The fact that none of them have been willing to give Wentz anything close to an endorsement makes the situation pretty obvious to anyone with common sense.

[Thrive]

6 minutes ago, T-1000 said:

He's gone. Wentz has had days to come out and say he wants to be here and all of a sudden he's silent. Lurie has had multiple opportunities to say Wentz is their guy, so has Howie and today Sirianni did. The fact that none of them have been willing to give Wentz anything close to an endorsement makes the situation pretty obvious to anyone with common sense.

The caveat being that they want to see if he is "fixable” of course. Wouldn’t make much sense to purportedly spend so much time asking coaches how to fix Wentz if you don’t plan on at least keeping him. That’s not inconsistent with them not giving him an endorsement and is probably their preferred route.

That is, unless they heard from these coaches that Wentz irreparably broken.

[EazyEaglez]

2 hours ago, Thrive said:

The caveat being that they want to see if he is "fixable” of course. Wouldn’t make much sense to purportedly spend so much time asking coaches how to fix Wentz if you don’t plan on at least keeping him. That’s not inconsistent with them not giving him an endorsement and is probably their preferred route.

That is, unless they heard from these coaches that Wentz irreparably broken.

Why do we keep assuming Wentz still wants to be here? He’s had numerous opportunities to say he’s committed to the Eagles. I still go back to the same point anyway. How do you fix a player who doesn’t think he is broken? 

[EazyEaglez]

2 hours ago, MillerTime said:

I find it interesting that the Colts hired Press Taylor. I find that as a bigger sign Carson might be heading there over anything else.

That certainly will not "fix” Wentz considering Taylor was nothing more than an enabler. 

[NOTW]

So now Jared Goff is on the trading block along with Watson. What a weird year. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/college/cal/.amp/news/rams-may-move-on-from-goff

[UK_EaglesFan89]

26 minutes ago, NOTW said:

So now Jared Goff is on the trading block along with Watson. What a weird year. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/college/cal/.amp/news/rams-may-move-on-from-goff

I can't say I'm surprised by the Goff one. It's a little similar to Wentz i think. 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

4 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I can't say I'm surprised by the Goff one. It's a little similar to Wentz i think. 

Goff, Wentz, Watson....maybe the system is changing to piling less money into one franchise position and instead having interchangeable, low cost QBs.  The position certainly does take up a ton of cap.

 

[ShutDownDB]

5 hours ago, NOTW said:

So now Jared Goff is on the trading block along with Watson. What a weird year. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.si.com/college/cal/.amp/news/rams-may-move-on-from-goff

2020 was not a good year for the 2016 QB draft class. Wentz was terrible, Goff may be done with the Rams and Dak was playing well until his ankle got destroyed. 

I hope the 2021 season is better for all them.

[Bwestbrook36]

44 minutes ago, ShutDownDB said:

2020 was not a good year for the 2016 QB draft class. Wentz was terrible, Goff may be done with the Rams and Dak was playing well until his ankle got destroyed. 

I hope the 2021 season is better for all them.

Oh so you are a Wentz hater now 😛

[Thrive]

1 hour ago, E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles said:

Goff, Wentz, Watson....maybe the system is changing to piling less money into one franchise position and instead having interchangeable, low cost QBs.  The position certainly does take up a ton of cap.

 

Well the Texans don’t want to trade Watson.

I don’t think any system is changing - this is just how it goes. Kaepernick also got a big deal early in his career and then proceeded to yank the rest of his career. Paying these QBs early is a bet and sometimes you lose.

It appears we lost.

[ShutDownDB]

17 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Oh so you are a Wentz hater now 😛

Yep they broke me down. Carson is the worst QB, he thinks his crap don't stink and he's the worst teammate in the history or sports. 

I wonder when and where the clown car is going to pick me up.

👀

 

[EaglesRocker97]

(Mostly) everyone sees it. Go back and look at what some of us were saying at the beginning of the season in this very thread.

This organization is a joke.

 

Quote

Malcolm Jenkins: Eagles screwed up by protecting Carson's ego

Malcolm Jenkins said the Eagles' coaching staff failed Carson Wentz by "trying to protect" his ego instead of making him accountable like other players on the roster.M

Jenkins spoke Friday on the Rich Eisen Show on the Peacock Network.

"As a teammate and friend of Carson, I think that it always starts with performance and he hasn't performed up to the expectations that everybody's had for him and I don't think he would say he's played up to his own expectations," Jenkins said.

"But some of the other issues I felt when I was in the locker room was that there was just too much leeway and it didn't make him a better player. I don't think they did him any favors by trying to protect his ego or trying to really protect him as a player as opposed to — just like every other player — keeping it performance-based and really being real about what he needed to improve on."

Jenkins spent this past year with the Saints but was with the Eagles from 2014 through 2019 and with Wentz the first four years of his career.

He saw Wentz play at an MVP level for most of 2017, and then at a lesser level but still effectively in 2018 and 2019 and then watched from afar as Wentz was the worst quarterback in the NFL this past year.

The way Jenkins sees it, the Eagles never made Wentz accountable when he didn't play up to expectations.

"Every player should go into every offseason evaluating what they did well, what they didn't do well, and you look to see improvement year after year," Jenkins told Eisen. "But if that's not the case and you don't see it and there are no changes and it's not being addressed, as a player you almost feel like, 'What are we doing?' To do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is insanity. And unfortunately, I think that a little bit of that has taken place over the last two years and obviously this offseason shows that something had to change in a major way. And Carson is still there and regardless who they bring in to coach him and get him better, he's still going to have to improve as a player in order for that team to have success."

 

Wentz's future remains up in the air, but Jenkins said no matter who's coaching the Eagles, "There's a lot of work to be done."

The Eagles went 4-11-1 this past season and finished last in the NFC East. Pederson benched Wentz after 11½ games and then was fired two weeks ago and replaced by Nick Sirianni.

"They've got a situation where obviously with all that went down with Carson Wentz this year, a lot of money invested into him and then you have Jalen Hurts come in and really take command of the offense, ignite a little bit of juice into the team — and that's not the first time that that's happened from a backup quarterback obviously in Philly — so it's one of those things where something has to change," he said. 

"Whether you put that onus on the coaching staff or you put that onus on the players that are there, but I mean there's obviously going to be a lot of work to be done there. But they've got great leadership, they've got players in that locker room that are a prideful group and what you hope to see is that at least as a fan — I even call myself an Eagles fan — you just hope that the competitiveness and the culture and the egos of what that team stands for at least stays in place."

For a guy who also told Eisen "I haven't really paid a ton of attention" to what's going on in Philly, Jenkins had some pretty pointed observations about his former team.

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/eagles/malcolm-jenkins-carson-wentz-eagles-rich-eisen-show

 

 👀

On 9/14/2020 at 9:03 AM, EaglesRocker97 said:

There are several things at play here, but they seem glaringly obvious to me.

First, he's clearly been coddled by the organization. He's been anointed the starter from day one, and despite Foles' success in his absence, Wentz never had to feel like he had to fight for his job. It's never been contingent on performance, and they've created a situation where it seems established that the starting job is owed to him, rather than having to earn it...

Like anyone else, Wentz needs to really put his nose to the grindstone to be great in the NFL, and the organization needs to challenge him to do so. He needs to be held accountable. But with Wentz, there seems to be this contentment within the organization to let him rest on his unearned laurels. The FO and coaching staff seem beholden to this aura of Wentz as the franchise QB, like they owe Wentz a job rather than Wentz owing the organization a commitment to excellence. Honestly, who could blame the guy for having a sense of entitlement by this point? It's practically been cultivated. This is how you breed complacency and aloofness in a young NFL star and squander prime talent.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

1 hour ago, Thrive said:

Well the Texans don’t want to trade Watson.

I don’t think any system is changing - this is just how it goes. Kaepernick also got a big deal early in his career and then proceeded to yank the rest of his career. Paying these QBs early is a bet and sometimes you lose.

It appears we lost.

Maybe.  I think it may be a paradigm shift, based on the proliferation of wide open offenses in college.  The dual threat QB is plentiful and generally cheaper on resources.   A shorter NFL life span means teams use them up in a rookie contract and let them go.  

I'm not in the "Wentz is a lost cause" camp after one season where he and everything around him was a mess. We definitely lost if he leaves now.

[E-A-G-L-E-S Eagles]

19 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Oh I respect your opinion and your view bud no doubt about that. I'm sorry if I've ever made it seem that I don't. 

No worries. I understand that disagreements are going to happen here...its been that way for years and years, long before your first appearance. 

There are a few people that seem to just hate Carson and believe that he brings nothing to the table (you seem to fit this type).  Sure, he had a bad year and needs to get better, but I suspect different coaching, systems, and seelf reflection will result in immediate improvement (whether here or somewhere else).  Again, I don't like the concept, but I think he is going elsewhere to succeed.  And Philly will enter the QB carousel again.