Time to put Howie back in the basement? - Discuss Howie Roseman here

[EazyEaglez]

1 minute ago, Infam said:

Yeah, except I doubt we will just get rid of him after winning a SB.. 

That will stay a once in history thing.

You have definitely been higher on Hurts than I have been. I’d place myself on the fence, but leaning more towards buying in than not. I’d still like to see more to convince me, because he’s just inconsistent. With that being the case I’m all about having patience here. I feel like we are seeing progress and development. It takes time and hopefully Howie is willing to let this flower get fertilized and grow pun intended. 

[Bwestbrook36]

2 hours ago, NOTW said:

We could always bring back another classic hit:  "trying to outsmart everyone."

My favorite is " howie sucks at drafting so what's the point of having all these picks!"" So and so becomes available via trade "OMGzzzz why did Howie get rid of our pickzzzz we need those for a rebuildzzz"

Or omg why didn't we give up 60 picks for that over the hill wide receiverzzzz Howiezz can't draft anywayzzz no super bowl for decadeszzz

[Infam]

14 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

You have definitely been higher on Hurts than I have been. I’d place myself on the fence, but leaning more towards buying in than not. I’d still like to see more to convince me, because he’s just inconsistent. With that being the case I’m all about having patience here. I feel like we are seeing progress and development. It takes time and hopefully Howie is willing to let this flower get fertilized and grow pun intended. 

If we throw our picks out of the window to get an old QB to replace Hurts- then and only then will I join the "Fire Howie" crowd.

But I don‘t think there will be any question who our QB is after this season.

[EazyEaglez]

11 minutes ago, Infam said:

If we throw our picks out of the window to get an old QB to replace Hurts- then and only then will I join the "Fire Howie" crowd.

But I don‘t think there will be any question who our QB is after this season.

I would prefer the quarterback situation stays the same, but I am concerned Howie may chase the quarterback rainbow. 

[Infam]

1 minute ago, EazyEaglez said:

I would prefer the quarterback situation stays the same, but I am concerned Howie may chase the quarterback rainbow. 

I doubt it. Media has been driving that narrative to create revenue, but so far I have not seen anything that makes me think we would get rid of Hurts despite him playing well. And he will play well.

But if he does chase that rainbow, that would screw us big time. It would be his biggest mistake, and the one that would be his undoing as GM.

 

[EazyEaglez]

29 minutes ago, Infam said:

I doubt it. Media has been driving that narrative to create revenue, but so far I have not seen anything that makes me think we would get rid of Hurts despite him playing well. And he will play well.

But if he does chase that rainbow, that would screw us big time. It would be his biggest mistake, and the one that would be his undoing as GM.

 

Yeah I just don’t even know if there is anything Howie could do to get fired. He follows the marching orders of Jeff. Maybe if he lost the caliber of player of Dawkins like Banner did than maybe, but there’s no one on this roster at that level. He also won that Super Bowl and that earned him a lot of leeway with the owner. Heck the owner is giving Howie credit for guys other teams drafted! What can he do wrong? There was reports out there that Lurie "green lit” a trade for Watson. There were reports Howie had a PI in Texas looking into Watson until Watson refused a trade to the Eagles. Ultimately what’s important to remember is Howie does nothing without the consent of Jeff. These moves aren’t just on Howie alone. 

[Infam]

3 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

Yeah I just don’t even know if there is anything Howie could do to get fired. He follows the marching orders of Jeff. Maybe if he lost the caliber of player of Dawkins like Banner did than maybe, but there’s no one on this roster at that level. He also won that Super Bowl and that earned him a lot of leeway with the owner. Heck the owner is giving Howie credit for guys other teams drafted! What can he do wrong? There was reports out there that Lurie "green lit” a trade for Watson. There were reports Howie had a PI in Texas looking into Watson until Watson refused a trade to the Eagles. Ultimately what’s important to remember is Howie does nothing without the consent of Jeff. These moves aren’t just on Howie alone. 

There were reports a trade is imminent.

Doesn‘t mean it‘s true though. I do believe he is doing his job and checking all QBs in draft/trade/FA, but that‘s only happening if Hurts fails. Which he won‘t.

 

[EazyEaglez]

1 minute ago, Infam said:

There were reports a trade is imminent.

Doesn‘t mean it‘s true though. I do believe he is doing his job and checking all QBs in draft/trade/FA, but that‘s only happening if Hurts fails. Which he won‘t.

 

I hope you’re right about Hurts. Frankly him succeeding is the best case scenario and Howie drafted him so that would be another notch in his cap. Truth is the Eagles always seem to be linked to some player or some trade and it never happens. How many weeks were they the supposed front runners to land Jalen Ramsey? Another Jalen. No wonder Howie was involved. 😂 But seriously you’re right. Nothing generally comes from any of those rumors. I can’t even think of one blockbuster trade or move Howie made off the top of my head for another established elite young player. He’s far more interested in winning the trade than giving up large assets. 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

I don’t think Howie’s getting fired even if this team fell on its face this season. So many new faces and changes. Your Hurts comment reminds me of Foles. Howie so mad he missed on Wilson still failing to realize he got that ring with his pick Foles. Are you implying Hurts is Howie’s new Foles? 

As you said, there are always excuses.  Injuries, new coach, change the QB, fire assistant coaches, etc.

I mean Lurie this past offseason excused Howie's drafting by saying other teams took the guys they planned on taking.  Putting aside that silly excuse, Lurie also is aware of the criticism of the drafting.  There were at least 2 game broadcasts I can remember last year where the announcers were ripping his drafting, putting up graphics showing the numbers.  

Howie won't go anywhere.  Despite reports of people not wanting to work with the Eagles because of him, despite bad drafting, despite creating salary cap problems then fixing those salary cap problems by trading players or extending contracts to even longer terms.  It would take a LOT to get Howie fired.

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

My favorite is " howie sucks at drafting so what's the point of having all these picks!"" So and so becomes available via trade "OMGzzzz why did Howie get rid of our pickzzzz we need those for a rebuildzzz"

Or omg why didn't we give up 60 picks for that over the hill wide receiverzzzz Howiezz can't draft anywayzzz no super bowl for decadeszzz

Yes that's always funny.  They want draft picks don't throw them away, but then want to throw them away to trade for players because they can't draft anyway.  Then when they trade and they don't have enough picks, they complain they should have kept the picks.  

[EazyEaglez]

24 minutes ago, NOTW said:

As you said, there are always excuses.  Injuries, new coach, change the QB, fire assistant coaches, etc.

I mean Lurie this past offseason excused Howie's drafting by saying other teams took the guys they planned on taking.  Putting aside that silly excuse, Lurie also is aware of the criticism of the drafting.  There were at least 2 game broadcasts I can remember last year where the announcers were ripping his drafting, putting up graphics showing the numbers.  

Howie won't go anywhere.  Despite reports of people not wanting to work with the Eagles because of him, despite bad drafting, despite creating salary cap problems then fixing those salary cap problems by trading players or extending contracts to even longer terms.  It would take a LOT to get Howie fired.

Howie is the safest person in the organization. Like I mentioned someplace else this year his picks are actually making contributions so maybe there’s a chance he’s getting better too. 

[Bwestbrook36]

41 minutes ago, NOTW said:

Yes that's always funny.  They want draft picks don't throw them away, but then want to throw them away to trade for players because they can't draft anyway.  Then when they trade and they don't have enough picks, they complain they should have kept the picks.  

I venture into the I want the eagles to get section here and there... I actually prefer Howie over most of the people on this board lol

[Vee]

15 hours ago, NOTW said:

They want draft picks don't throw them away, but then want to throw them away to trade for players because they can't draft anyway.  Then when they trade and they don't have enough picks, they complain they should have kept the picks.  

This is TATE in two sentences.

[EagleVA]

17 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

Like I mentioned someplace else this year his picks are actually making contributions so maybe there’s a chance he’s getting better too. 

Like I said someplace else, you have to take into account of the contributions of players he passed on to decide if he's getting better.

[NOTW]

That's another point.  People will say a player Howie drafted isn't that bad, it's a crap shoot, every team has misses, etc.  But there are players that consensus of fans think are better picks than the JAG that Howie took.  This isn't hindsight after you see them perform, this is pre-draft.  So 2 years later Howie apologists are saying the player is decent, he's a "starter" (you can be a starter but suck like our LBs).  But the issue is often who they didn't take.

[EazyEaglez]

1 hour ago, EagleVA said:

Like I said someplace else, you have to take into account of the contributions of players he passed on to decide if he's getting better.

You can’t just operate out of the past only. Heck he was a ring from the past too. 

53 minutes ago, NOTW said:

That's another point.  People will say a player Howie drafted isn't that bad, it's a crap shoot, every team has misses, etc.  But there are players that consensus of fans think are better picks than the JAG that Howie took.  This isn't hindsight after you see them perform, this is pre-draft.  So 2 years later Howie apologists are saying the player is decent, he's a "starter" (you can be a starter but suck like our LBs).  But the issue is often who they didn't take.

I agree. In any case Howie still ain’t going anywhere. 

[Infam]

54 minutes ago, NOTW said:

That's another point.  People will say a player Howie drafted isn't that bad, it's a crap shoot, every team has misses, etc.  But there are players that consensus of fans think are better picks than the JAG that Howie took.  This isn't hindsight after you see them perform, this is pre-draft.  So 2 years later Howie apologists are saying the player is decent, he's a "starter" (you can be a starter but suck like our LBs).  But the issue is often who they didn't take.

BS. For every player the fans are right on there is like three they are wrong on.

But there was a guy he should‘ve taken?

You got to be kidding me. There is not a single GM in the league past or present where that‘s not true.

But that‘s what it takes. Compared to the other GM‘s he‘s good, so let‘s compare him to the ultimate draft. In hindsight no less.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

28 minutes ago, Infam said:

You got to be kidding me. There is not a single GM in the league past or present where that‘s not true.

I think the problem for Howie is 1) he's had so many damn misses and 2) he tends to pass on a player, picks another at the same position and then the guy he passed on goes on to be really good. 

[Infam]

11 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I think the problem for Howie is 1) he's had so many damn misses and 2) he tends to pass on a player, picks another at the same position and then the guy he passed on goes on to be really good. 

Nah. The problem is that people are searching for every "mistake" so they can be right in their blind and unreasonable hate. Then I hear people all the time going: I have to give him credit for this, have to give him credit for that, but it never really registers.

That, and that our team for some reason is super underestimated. I guess if you can‘t form your own opinion it‘s easy to agree with the s-heads saying our team sucks. Except it doesn‘t. At least our team always plays with heart. 

No doubt that narrative will change again the moment we win more games. Because these BS opinions are based on win-loss and nothing else. 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, Infam said:

BS. For every player the fans are right on there is like three they are wrong on.

But there was a guy he should‘ve taken?

You got to be kidding me. There is not a single GM in the league past or present where that‘s not true.

But that‘s what it takes. Compared to the other GM‘s he‘s good, so let‘s compare him to the ultimate draft. In hindsight no less.

Obviously fans can be wrong and often are.  My point is that the excuses for Howie are that who he drafted is "decent" or a starter (which doesn't mean much if the starter sucks and that's the best they have at that position).  Often there are players that are consensus across the fan base, media, the analysts, etc. that would be good prospects to draft and Howie takes someone else who is either injury prone, a project or a reach.  Then 2 years later apologists like yourself are defending Howie that this guy isn't that bad.  We've got a guy here who spent 2 years defending JJAW who is a waste of a player taken in the 2nd round.  Reagor was a 1st round pick who has almost no impact.  Dillard lost the job to a 7th round Rugby project.  Howie drafted guys like Rasul Douglas, Mack Hollins and Pumphrey with better talent available that fans wanted, and were proven right.  Yes, there's the "crap shoot" element to the draft and other teams make their misses as well.  The biggest issue is that Howie hasn't drafted true difference makers and All Pro caliber players.  Any team can get a few guys to plug in as starters or be backups for 3 years then become a starter due to injury...that's setting the bar very low.

[NOTW]

33 minutes ago, Infam said:

Nah. The problem is that people are searching for every "mistake" so they can be right in their blind and unreasonable hate. Then I hear people all the time going: I have to give him credit for this, have to give him credit for that, but it never really registers.

That, and that our team for some reason is super underestimated. I guess if you can‘t form your own opinion it‘s easy to agree with the s-heads saying our team sucks. Except it doesn‘t. At least our team always plays with heart. 

No doubt that narrative will change again the moment we win more games. Because these BS opinions are based on win-loss and nothing else. 

Nope, some of us have always said Howie is bad at drafting even in the SB year.  Howie won Exec of the year for making good trades and free agent signings...acquiring players that other teams drafted...because he can't draft well.  They won the SB mostly with players from other teams and players that were drafted before Howie was in charge of the draft.  Look at the defense.  Cox, some free agents and a bunch of scrubs or JAGs.  Howie has not once drafted a star defensive player.  

[UK_EaglesFan89]

42 minutes ago, Infam said:

Nah. The problem is that people are searching for every "mistake" so they can be right in their blind and unreasonable hate. Then I hear people all the time going: I have to give him credit for this, have to give him credit for that, but it never really registers.

That may be true of some but that's not true of all. Every GM makes mistakes, I just think Howie makes more than the best GMs in the NFL. 

[EagleVA]

3 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

You can’t just operate out of the past only. Heck he was a ring from the past too. 

So you're calling last year the past, or the year before that or the year before that?  I mean really, when you're talking about the draft the present only last a few hours spanned over 3 days every year.

Face it, the dude passes on damn good players at positions of need every year for mediocre players at positions of need every year.

[brkmsn]

17 hours ago, NOTW said:

Nope, some of us have always said Howie is bad at drafting even in the SB year.  Howie won Exec of the year for making good trades and free agent signings...acquiring players that other teams drafted...because he can't draft well.  They won the SB mostly with players from other teams and players that were drafted before Howie was in charge of the draft.  Look at the defense.  Cox, some free agents and a bunch of scrubs or JAGs.  Howie has not once drafted a star defensive player.  

I think it's important to recognize that the approach Howie used in 2017 had success. His focus shifted on trying to "extend" that success through keeping the team core intact and attempting minor upgrades (which didn't always work out like unloading T. Smith and replacing him with Wallace).  Injuries seemed to be a curse after the Super Bowl eventually leading to our current state. We invested a lot of money in players that missed a lot of games. Our win/loss record steadily got worse. 

On paper, I think trying to sustain the 2017 success was the right idea. Unfortunately as that failed, we hurt our current situation. Now, the draft success is much more important because the rookie contracts are cap friendly. I'm not sure our drafting since 2018 has been as poor as some people are concluding. It's still early to know the full impact of the last 2 drafts, but 2018 was still pretty good. 2019 wasn't so great, but the last 2 may prove to be very good. The early returns on the last draft are good so far. 

But Howie can still do something in the future like he did in 2017 and put together a capable team in a short amount of time. 

[NOTW]

33 minutes ago, brkmsn said:

I think it's important to recognize that the approach Howie used in 2017 had success. His focus shifted on trying to "extend" that success through keeping the team core intact and attempting minor upgrades (which didn't always work out like unloading T. Smith and replacing him with Wallace).  Injuries seemed to be a curse after the Super Bowl eventually leading to our current state. We invested a lot of money in players that missed a lot of games. Our win/loss record steadily got worse. 

On paper, I think trying to sustain the 2017 success was the right idea. Unfortunately as that failed, we hurt our current situation. Now, the draft success is much more important because the rookie contracts are cap friendly. I'm not sure our drafting since 2018 has been as poor as some people are concluding. It's still early to know the full impact of the last 2 drafts, but 2018 was still pretty good. 2019 wasn't so great, but the last 2 may prove to be very good. The early returns on the last draft are good so far. 

But Howie can still do something in the future like he did in 2017 and put together a capable team in a short amount of time. 

Most NFL teams can rebound in a couple years it's one of the things that makes the NFL more enjoyable is that your team generally has a chance to become good rather than be terrible for years.  There are exceptions (poor Lions fans!).  We got spoiled by the Reid era where they were a legit contender for many of his years.  The organization hadn't won a championship since 1960 so 2017 was an anomaly.  Part of the 2017 success was Frank Reich and his offensive scheming and coaching up Nick Foles to his strengths.  Part was the underdog mentality, a lot of veterans realizing this was their shot, a lot of players with chips on their shoulders (see Kelce's speech), rallying around the backup.  There were some emotional effects that fueled the team as well.  A lot of those factors went away the following couple years, they changed from hungry dogs to fat cats with big egos.

People describe that year as a lightning in a bottle situation.  Howie has still not proven (yet) to be able to build the core of a contending team through the draft.  Many of this draft picks are either no longer on the team or just scrubs, not many big hits.  Some of the key players are free agents and trade acquisitions like Hargrave and Slay.  That's obviously a part of the game, but the primary method is the draft.  He has not drafted a single player on defense anyone would consider a star or true franchise player.  On offense he had Lane Johnson at #4 who was a no brainer everyone in the NFL knew they were going to take whatever OT was left.  The rest of his drafting has not netted big time star players.  His drafting is mediocre at best.