e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 3 hours ago, vsptroops said: Sorry, the bad outweighs the good when it comes to Amaro. Ibanez, just like Mccutcheon, should never have been given that 3rd year. I like Raul, but honestly he was on a downward trajectory when the rumors of him being on steroids surfaced, which was in his first year. That signing also cost them their first round draft pick. Howard should have never been given that ridiculous contract. The 2009 World Series where he was exposed by Girardi should have been a massive clue that Howard had been figured out. I mean, who the hell walks the #3 guy to get to the cleanup hitter? Did Howard adjust? Nope. I think he had somewhere around a 50% strikeout ratio in that series which is horrific for anyone not a pitcher. Amaro tried to be cute and get a "discounted" signing and it backfired. At the minimum he should have waited until after the 2010 season and reassessed because Howard still had another year of team control. Pappelbon? Why the hell was he signed when this team's shelf life was coming to an end? 5 years for a closer who had a lot of mileage on his arm? Wow. Plus, that signing cost them another first round pick. The return on the trade of Cliff Lee was absolutely horrific. He got 3 stiffs for a Cy Young award winner. To say that Amaro isn't as bad as Klentak shows how inept the Phillies organization has been over their history. I don’t disagree he shouldnt have given Howard that contract however I don’t think that was all him. I think that was Dave Montgomery wanted Ryan Howard to finish his career as a Phillie and reward him for past achievements. Also people got pissed off they let werth go what how do you think they would’ve felt they let Ryan Howard go. People were upset when they didn’t give the money to werth and i didn’t think Jayson Werth was worth that contract. He also gave up very little in terms of what the prospect turned out to be for Lee. Like if you’re gonna hold it against him that Philip amounte didn’t do anything well besides Carlos Carrasco who’s a no. 3 to back into the rotation guy for most of his career he didn’t give up much for Cliff Lee. papelboun was a mistake. I’m not going to argue that. Say what you want if he doesn’t make the move for Cliff lee in 2009 they don’t make the World Series again because Brad lidge was not nearly as good and Hamels fell off the face of the planet that year. People give gillick lot of credit but lidge had to be perfect that year and Cole Hamels pitched out of his mind that year for them to win that World Series. Everything fell into place for them. Plus it helped facing the rays and not Boston that year. If both of those guys did that in 2009 the Phillies have back to back World Series titles. And people would love amari for getting lee and hamels to put them way over the top. I can’t blame Amaro for Cole Hamels completely regressing and lidge not being perfect when he went out and got Cliff Lee and that’s the reason that propelled them to the 2009 World Series. So without that move the Phillies don’t even get back to another World Series Add on in 2010 yeah he traded away Lee but then he went out and got oswalt for basically nothing in terms of what the prospects turned out to be. You can argue if they had Lee they would’ve won that series against the giants however if they had Cliff lee I don’t think they go out and get Roy oswalt so you would have a Lee insert for oswalt and that series is still a toss up in 2011 he rectified the situation and got Cliff Lee back and got them Hunter pence. That team might’ve been one of the top three Phillies teams of all time. It’s his fault that the Phillies couldn’t score more than zero runs game five winner take all with halladay pitching a gem? He built a rotation of four legitimate aces with a pretty good lineup. That team should have won a World Series. They had the best record in baseball And managed to lose in the wildcard round. I can’t blame on amaro for the failures of that team when they were a stacked team. They actually failed him more than he failed that team In 2011 after that run from 2009-2011 you could make the argument he was bad. But those three years he gave the Phillies every opportunity to try to win another World Series. Frankly they should’ve won another World Series in 2009 if Cole Hamels wasn’t garbage that year and Brad lidge was at least good not average. And 2011 they let him down after giving them 4 aces and adding Hunter pence (who they also gave up next to nothing in how the prospects turned out) literally I would argue the 2009, 2010 and 2011 rosters were better than the 2008 roster that won and it’s cause of the moves he made. just so happens everything fell into place for that 2008 team like Brad lidge being perfect in save opportunities frankly I think he was average as a general manager. He gave you three years where he added key players to give you a chance to win a World Series. And then after that each consecutive year he went more downward trend. you want to say he’s even below average I could understand that. But if you’re gonna tell me he was horrible that isn’t true. Those three years were he made those significant moves to add key pieces no one was complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdsFanBill Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 I think people forget how good Ryan Howard was when he was given that contract. Its easy to now say oh he shouldn’t have gotten it and of course there was the injury, but I don’t remember a lot of people complaining about us locking down a perennial MVP candidate for years when it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 10:16 PM, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said: I don’t think trading pence was an awful decision. What he got back for pence was. When they traded pence their run was basically over. You weren’t going to keep him when you basically were done competing. Everyone on the world knew they were done after 2011 when howard tore his Achilles and doc began having back issues the next season. They traded him the next year (2012) and they were not that good. They finished 81-81. He got little back that was any good for him was the issue the cliff lee first trade was a mistake and he should’ve kept him. However he also got halladay in that deal. he also got him to return by signing him back when no one expected it as the mystery team cause of the relationship he had with Lee. They should’ve won a World Series on 2011 with one of the greatest rosters in phillies history. also if they had lee in 2010 you don’t likely trade for oswalt that year and have the four aces the next year. hate amaro way less than klentak. klentak was a way worse gm, all the prospects we got from those players he traded out, we could have gotten more talent from them instead he put all the stock in those prospects and it backfired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vsptroops Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 46 minutes ago, BirdsFanBill said: I think people forget how good Ryan Howard was when he was given that contract. Its easy to now say oh he shouldn’t have gotten it and of course there was the injury, but I don’t remember a lot of people complaining about us locking down a perennial MVP candidate for years when it happened. Oh I agree, from 2006-09, he was a monster. Absolute excitement every time he came up to bat. The problem with giving him the extension was the timing and the years. His fatal flaw- the low and away breaking ball- was exposed in the 09 World Series. Amaro should have recognized and waited to see how he responded in 2010. Just like the NFL, MLB is a copycat league so you knew that teams were going to start doing the same thing the Yankees did to him and sure enough, they did. Did Howard ever adjust? Nope. That's on him. Plus, big bodied guys like him usually break down a lot earlier as well and with that extension, they committed an additional 7 years to him (the 2 years he was still under team control and the 5 year extension). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iladelphxx Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 Kingery optioned to AAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranklinFldEBUpper Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 19 minutes ago, iladelphxx said: Kingery optioned to AAA When you're one of those guys who can play a whole bunch of positions but none of them particularly well, you'd better be able to hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 21 minutes ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said: When you're one of those guys who can play a whole bunch of positions but none of them particularly well, you'd better be able to hit. It’s amazing how much he has regressed. The jump the gun giving him that extension after the year he had in spring training a couple years ago. I saw him a ton when he was at Arizona. He could hit the ball to all parts of the field and he had solid power. The Phillies screwed with his swing cause of launch angle and he’s never gotten his swing back. I also think he just lacks confidence. Add on Hes just doesn’t have the arm to play outfield. It’s why Arizona moved him tot he infield in college. Even in the infield for the Phillies he can only play second cause he doesn’t have the range for SS and third base he isn’t good enough and they got bohm now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdsFanBill Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 2 hours ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: Kingery is officially a bust. It’s sad really. You hope he can go down and eventually become a serviceable major leaguer but I don’t have my hopes up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazehound Posted March 28, 2021 Share Posted March 28, 2021 RIP Scotty Jetpacks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawkins 20 Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 On 3/28/2021 at 6:57 PM, BirdsFanBill said: It’s sad really. You hope he can go down and eventually become a serviceable major leaguer but I don’t have my hopes up. All for a cool $24m. Clearly Klentak projected his pre/arbitration years to cost a lot more than $24m in salary. Now $4m per year is peanuts in the overall grand scheme of things, but Klentak lost that one. Having said that, I don't like to write guys off too early, but is there anything to be optimistic about with Kingery? I only see a handful of Phillies games each year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Dawkins 20 said: All for a cool $24m. Clearly Klentak projected his pre/arbitration years to cost a lot more than $24m in salary. Now $4m per year is peanuts in the overall grand scheme of things, but Klentak lost that one. Having said that, I don't like to write guys off too early, but is there anything to be optimistic about with Kingery? I only see a handful of Phillies games each year. If we are being honest? Not really. He hasn’t looked good outside of like a short hot streak for a week then reverts back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shades 73 Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 He will be back up as soon as Quinn gets hurt, so next week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iladelphxx Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Hererra didn't make the team and is being sent to Allentown. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 5 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: I am going to miss that "hey how did I miss that ball"- look on his way back to the dugout when he strikes out....... Not really. Bye bye. Another young prospect flames out in Philly. Add him to the list. Honestly their drafting going back to when Ed wade was fired has just been bad in terms of mlb players that were impactful players especially for the Phillies. Like hoskins is so-so this year i feel like you could add him to the list of highly thought of when they got called up that didn’t make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 4 minutes ago, 4for4EaglesNest said: It's not just drafting. They had one of the better prospect pools in the majors about 5 years ago. Then it all went haywire. They have sucked at developing players. It can't all be blamed on drafting. I’d include development in their drafting as well. I think it’s the total package when i talk about drafting. You have to select the right player and develop. Nola might legitimately be the only player since 2011 they have drafted and developed and had overwhelming success if hoskins flops. They are basically the eagles in terms of drafting and developing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranklinFldEBUpper Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said: I’d include development in their drafting as well. I think it’s the total package when i talk about drafting. You have to select the right player and develop. Nola might legitimately be the only player since 2011 they have drafted and developed and had overwhelming success if hoskins flops. They are basically the eagles in terms of drafting and developing. I think Bohm is gonna be a star. Reminds me of a righthanded hitting Utley. But your general point still stands, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, FranklinFldEBUpper said: I think Bohm is gonna be a star. Reminds me of a righthanded hitting Utley. But your general point still stands, of course. Bohm if he does you’d definitely right to include him. I view him as a up in the air but have high hopes for him. I felt Dominic brown was going to be at least good and he failed ultimately. So hard to say for certain he does. I hope brohm, howard and stott actually develop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdsFanBill Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Bohm is a stud. Just looks like a hitter up there from day one. I'm excited to watch him this year. Kingery was the equivalent of watching Kevin Kolb start games. It was like "Are we sure this guy is supposed to be good?" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemack8 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Marcus Hayes wrote an article about how the Phillies - specifically Kapler and Klentak - ruined Kingery. https://www.inquirer.com/phillies/philadelphia-phillies-scott-kingery-20210330.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shades 73 Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, mikemack8 said: Marcus Hayes wrote an article about how the Phillies - specifically Kapler and Klentak - ruined Kingery. https://www.inquirer.com/phillies/philadelphia-phillies-scott-kingery-20210330.html They ruined much more than that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iladelphxx Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 20 hours ago, e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! said: I’d include development in their drafting as well. I think it’s the total package when i talk about drafting. You have to select the right player and develop. Nola might legitimately be the only player since 2011 they have drafted and developed and had overwhelming success if hoskins flops. They are basically the eagles in terms of drafting and developing. I don't think Hoskins is a flop.... He started his career on a historic, unsustainable pace. He is basically Pat Burrell. Good OBP, with some pop who is limited defensively. He's a 2-2.5 WAR player, which is basically what you would expect out of solid regular. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e-a-g-l-e-s eagles! Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 29 minutes ago, iladelphxx said: I don't think Hoskins is a flop.... He started his career on a historic, unsustainable pace. He is basically Pat Burrell. Good OBP, with some pop who is limited defensively. He's a 2-2.5 WAR player, which is basically what you would expect out of solid regular. His war is that high cause of his first two season then he dramatically tailed off in 2019 and 2020 he was up and down. Plus he’s coming off TJ surgery so he might never return to the player he even was in 2018. If you asked the Phillies if he was going to be 2018 for 10 years they’d take it. Not sure he ever becomes that again. So if he plays more like June to September 2019 (.4 War) and not 2018 it’s hard to say he’s not a flop. His war in 2020 from what I’ve seen was .9 or 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwestbrook36 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 When did this thread turn into Tate? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BirdsFanBill Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Hoskins is fine. But that's all he is. People got crazy when he had a hot streak and thought he was the next Babe Ruth. Now that he's settling into being an average to above average player, people are all mad. The guy is a decent piece on a winning team. He isn't ruined or a bust he just is what he is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bwestbrook36 Posted April 1, 2021 Share Posted April 1, 2021 Lol @4for4EaglesNest only relating to the beetching about another sheety GM . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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