EMB Blog: 2024 Offseason

[DeathByEagle]

No one mentioning Trotter Jr. in possible pick ups for today? So many down on him cause of the smaller frame like Dean? I personally rather have him over Cedric Grey 

[ManuManu]

Just now, DeathByEagle said:

No one mentioning Trotter Jr. in possible pick ups for today? So many down on him cause of the smaller frame like Dean? I personally rather have him over Cedric Grey 

Howie probably won’t be able to help himself. That’s why he got all those fourth round picks. 

[eagle45]

1 minute ago, ManuManu said:

He was announced as an LB, which means he’s a SAM IMO. 

 

1 minute ago, UK Eagle said:

That was my first thought when I saw the pick.

He’s intriguing to think of as a LB given his size and history as a safety.  

But we all know how the Eagles (and the rest of the NFL, really) value off ball LB.  If you want to invest in the position in round 3, you can get someone who is pretty close to the top of their draft year rankings without taking a complete flier on a small school guy and asking him to change positions for the 2nd time in 2 years and reducing everything to complete projection.

For off ball LB, that feels like a filer you take in round 5.  

But…ignoring the round, I think he could be a really interesting SAM.  It’s going to take at least 1-2 years to get him there though.

[HazletonEagle]

2 minutes ago, DeathByEagle said:

No one mentioning Trotter Jr. in possible pick ups for today? So many down on him cause of the smaller frame like Dean? I personally rather have him over Cedric Grey 

Im not down on him. Im down on the idea of him and Dean together.

[Freshmilk]

4 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

The way Howie talked about him, he sure seemed like a developmental player rather than contributor. It’s the third round, so as long as they see future starter upside, fine by me. 

I think we both said the same thing.

[ManuManu]

 

[RLC]

13 minutes ago, UK Eagle said:

Hunt feels like a familiar 3rd round pick for the Birds. Flyer on athletic freak, etc etc. I've never seen one work out, but maybe this time it ill happen?

Josh Sweat, while in RD4, is the same approach. Get the highly athletic pass-rusher with questions (Sweat- health, Hunt- level of competition) and see if it hits.

[we_gotta_believe]

23 minutes ago, DeathByEagle said:

Reminders me of a Peter Boulware type of player. I personally like both OLBs to be that way. Then you can truly disguise your defense like the 3-4 was designed. 

A conventional 3-4 front was made essentially obsolete by modern offenses and the prevalence of 3, 4, and 5 WR sets. You'd have to have LBs who are excellent in coverage to get by with only 4 DBs on the field. Sure, you could drop your NT for an extra DB, but then you end up much closer to a 4-3 fire zone front with DEs that can drop into the flats or hook zones.

[ManuManu]

2 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

 

He’s intriguing to think of as a LB given his size and history as a safety.  

But we all know how the Eagles (and the rest of the NFL, really) value off ball LB.  If you want to invest in the position in round 3, you can get someone who is pretty close to the top of their draft year rankings without taking a complete flier on a small school guy and asking him to change positions for the 2nd time in 2 years and reducing everything to complete projection.

For off ball LB, that feels like a filer you take in round 5.  

But…ignoring the round, I think he could be a really interesting SAM.  It’s going to take at least 1-2 years to get him there though.

Don’t get too hung up on the term linebacker though. He will predominantly rush the passer. Fangio just wants the edges to be able to drop a little bit, and one of the edges tends to drop more often than the other. 

[paco]

Hey guys, I got to work outside most of the day today.  If I wanted to listen to the draft, any recommendations?  (I could just stream YouTube.TV but I don't get great wifi or cell out back so I'm looking for audio only)

[eagle45]

10 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Still not on the right track there. I dont think Chris Gocong had any coverage ability. He just had crazy sack numbers, and the eagles still tried to turn him in to an off ball SAM.

The comp that I think is so easy to see is Connor Barwin. Who was effective moving forwards, and backwards and made plays in both facets of the game. Was never a double digit sack guy but if he gets around 8, and makes a ton of plays on tipped passes, supports the run... hell be a very versatile stat sheet filler. 

 

Well Gocong and Hunt were different prospects…but if we are talking SAM, it’s a similar vision.  Gocong had video game sack numbers, was a bit small for edge (especially back then), pretty good athlete…so they thought he might fit as a SAM with unique blitzing ability.  They ended up getting a lot of decent starts out of Gocong at SAM.  The funny thing with Gocong is that he really wasn’t very effective off the blitz as a pro LB.  Everyone criticized that they didn’t blitz him enough, but they didn’t do it chiefly because he wasn’t very good at it.  He was, however, exceptional in run defense and he wasn’t as terrible in coverage as everyone feared.

Hunt is a different player, but I could see the vision for the same SAM transition.

[NCiggles]

25 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

I mean…I don’t care what RAS says, a thin framed edge with no anchor weighing under 260,  running a 40 over 4.6, jumping under 38” isn’t a special or unique raw athlete.  That 40 for his weight is pretty unspectacular for edge rushers these days.
 

Now, he’s just under those benchmarks, so he’s not a bad athlete by any means.  And given how his frame has to change to play this position and how long he’s been playing it, he’s been under scouted, so there is some unique upside there that most/all SEC 2 year starter DEs in round 3 are going to lack.  So I’m fine with the pick.  And maybe he’s a better athlete for the few that really watched him than even the combine showed…I’m just saying he didn’t exactly blow it up.

My view on the pick is that it was the cost of trading up for DeJean and some overconfidence by Howie on how the picks would fall. They probably didn’t have a 3rd round grade on him. He was likely the highest ranked player they had on the board based on positional value. I don’t think they traded back with the idea of taking this player. They traded back because they lost out on the Amigadje, Beebe and Coleman had gone off the board before 78. Howie probably thought one of Haynes, Roman Wilson, Goncalves and Zinter would be there at 86 and miscalculated. So we ended up with a reach pick at a position of value. 

[bpac55]

My gripe with Hunt isn't the player himself, it's that the Eagles haven't shown they know how to develop anyone on the defensive side of the ball. Davion Taylor was this speed demon LB. Kyron Johnson was an athletic freak. Patrick Johnson had great pass rush skills. Tarron Jackson came from a small school but was supposed to be a good DE to develop. They traded for Genard Avery who they couldn't develop anymore. 

If the Eagles showed me they had any ability to develop players, a player like Hunt should be making us drool. Instead, it looks like a wasted pick when you had 3 players from UM go within the next 20 picks who are all going to contribute in a big way. Zinter is a starting RG in the NFL. Corum is RB1 from day 1. Roman Wilson is a speed demon from the slot. MarShawn Lloyd, Jermaine Burton and Luke McCaffery are all contributing on this team immediately and filling holes on the roster. 

I hope Hunt comes in here and reaches his potential, but the Eagles track record with project players not named Jordan Mailata is just terrible. 

[Iggles_Phan]

2 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

"Having a future” is a subjective term, but I think Ricks can be a backup outside corner here for the next few years. 

He's not 'an answer'.  He's a guy that can stick as depth, for a short time.  But, he's poor depth that you constantly look to replace.  His future here lasts as long as it takes for the Eagles to find a better option.  He's not a second contract guy.  Last year was year 1.  This will be year 2.  He'll be lucky to see year 3 in his final year of his contract.  They will bring in some UDFAs, but given the lack of overall depth with the prospect pool this year, it likely won't push Ricks off this year.  But, next year... he's in a for a massive battle to stick.

Jobe's greatest asset to the team currently is his ST contributions.  That's his future here, but backup CB ST players aren't long term roster guys either unless they are truly special on ST.

 

My point was that neither one is looked at by the Eagles as a future starter.  Yet, people have talked about them constantly like they can be plugged in like that.  Some even suggested going into the offseason that the presence of Ringo, Jobe and Ricks would impact the Eagles from going for a CB early in the draft.   And that has been proven to be 100% false with the first two picks of this draft.  We can't be sure exactly what role they have in mind for Dejean at this point, but the draft has offered them the opportunity to get more athletic and faster on the back end.   Those words don't fit with Ricks or Jobe.

[DeathByEagle]

3 minutes ago, we_gotta_believe said:

A conventional 3-4 front was made essentially obsolete by modern offenses and the prevalence of 3, 4, and 5 WR sets. You'd have to have LBs who are excellent in coverage to get by with only 4 DBs on the field. Sure, you could drop your NT for an extra DB, but then you end up much closer to a 4-3 fire zone front with DEs that can drop into the flats or hook zones.

Thats why we have the big nickel etc for those sets. Im talking base offensive sets which are coming back more and more. You are seeing more teams start to run the ball more and run more 12 and 21 personal as well to take advantage of the smaller LBs/Edge rushers that defensives are throwing out there. Yes we would only use a true 3-4 set maybe 10-15% of the defensive snaps but when you do its worth having the correct type of LB out there for the purpose. That is what Hunt reminds me of. If he turns out better and can be placed in more situations, great. 

[eagle45]

Theo Johnson is an interesting target for today.  

We all know I hate 12 personnel, but one of the biggest liabilities on this team is who to throw the ball to after Brown/Smith/Goedert.  It’s a pretty bare cupboard after those 3 (although I really like Campbell).  TE2 is also pretty unsettled, unless you just want to assume Uzomah can turn back the clock a few years.

Johnson has incredible specs to be a weapon in the passing game, but the problem is that most scouts seem to think those are hollow specs that completely fail to show through in how he plays as a receiver.  

But still…at this point in the draft…this offense needs a depth weapon.  And the Eagles, going back 30 years, have had very clean succession plans at TE with overlap.  Goedert is getting old.

[RLC]

Josh Jobe should be more nervous than Eli Ricks. DeJean is going to snipe his role as a gunner, so Jobe won't even have as great ST value.

[eagle45]

5 minutes ago, Iggles_Phan said:

He's not 'an answer'.  He's a guy that can stick as depth, for a short time.  But, he's poor depth that you constantly look to replace.  His future here lasts as long as it takes for the Eagles to find a better option.  He's not a second contract guy.  Last year was year 1.  This will be year 2.  He'll be lucky to see year 3 in his final year of his contract.  They will bring in some UDFAs, but given the lack of overall depth with the prospect pool this year, it likely won't push Ricks off this year.  But, next year... he's in a for a massive battle to stick.

Jobe's greatest asset to the team currently is his ST contributions.  That's his future here, but backup CB ST players aren't long term roster guys either unless they are truly special on ST.

 

My point was that neither one is looked at by the Eagles as a future starter.  Yet, people have talked about them constantly like they can be plugged in like that.  Some even suggested going into the offseason that the presence of Ringo, Jobe and Ricks would impact the Eagles from going for a CB early in the draft.   And that has been proven to be 100% false with the first two picks of this draft.  We can't be sure exactly what role they have in mind for Dejean at this point, but the draft has offered them the opportunity to get more athletic and faster on the back end.   Those words don't fit with Ricks or Jobe.

Everyone knew the CBs sucked last year, so there was a hype machine to prop up specifically Jobe and Ricks as these UDFA steals and solid young CB prospects.  We heard everyone saying they had huge depth and numbers at CB in camp last year. 

[Iggles_Phan]

20 minutes ago, HazletonEagle said:

Still not on the right track there. I dont think Chris Gocong had any coverage ability. He just had crazy sack numbers, and the eagles still tried to turn him in to an off ball SAM.

The comp that I think is so easy to see is Connor Barwin. Who was effective moving forwards, and backwards and made plays in both facets of the game. Was never a double digit sack guy but if he gets around 8, and makes a ton of plays on tipped passes, supports the run... hell be a very versatile stat sheet filler. 

 

  Barwin led the Eagles in sacks in 2014 when he was named 2nd team All-Pro.  He had 14.5 sacks that year.   He also had a double digit sack year with the Texans (11.5)

 

That said... if Hunt even approaches what we got from Connor Barwin, then this is a home run pick.  Barwin was never a hand in the dirt guy... never really a DE... and another Cincinnati guy.

 

We really need to dip back in to that U of Cincinnati pool.  So much success there in the past, especially in the later rounds.

[CouchKing]

Happy to still be alive in the Master of the Draft.

I will be away from keyboard most of the day.

Best of luck to everyone else.

And, for Howie, please just make some picks bro.

I haven't even looked at UDFA. I bet a dollar there's a RB in UDFA.

[RLC]

Jobe, Ricks and Ringo were all better than Bradberry last year. Those 3 didn't sink the defense.

Having an atrocious slot CB and no LB outside of Cunningham killed us. Teams just attacked the middle of the field relentlessly and we had no answer.

[austinfan]

16 minutes ago, ManuManu said:

Don’t get too hung up on the term linebacker though. He will predominantly rush the passer. Fangio just wants the edges to be able to drop a little bit, and one of the edges tends to drop more often than the other. 

I think more in terms of packages, if you have a true SOLB and WOLB, you can make the 3-4 your base package, then shift to a 4-2-5 or 5-1-5.

A lot of teams line up in double TE packages for 30-40% of snaps with a H-back and a "true" TE.

It also helps to have interior DBs with size who can tackle - don't want a 5-9 180 lb NCB forced to cover a 6-4 240 lb H-back.

[we_gotta_believe]

41 minutes ago, austinfan said:

that describes most players picked after #15 as well as most FAs.

Reddick fit a system where he was basically used as a wide 9/Elephant role, pin your ears back and attack the QB.

For most teams, that's a 3rd down specialist, for the Eagles the past two years that was a starter.

When Fangio came in, he became an overpaid specialist.

Uh no, it's not the case with most offensive players, aside from QBs. Even in the secondary, you get players like DeJean that can fit in and play well in various schemes. Sure, the reason a lot of players drop to the mid rounds is because they're tweeners or niche players for less common schemes. That's how you end up with Kelce in the 6th, to be molded by the incomparable Howard Mudd and then by an incredible stroke of luck, Jeff Stoutland the following year, at a time when zone blocking was not as ubiquitous as we see today. Without the tutelage of those two guys, Kelce likely doesn't become the HOF player we know today. 

But Fangio is not the defensive equivalent of Mudd or Stout. He's now been with 6 teams in the last 14 years or so? That's an average of just over 2 years per stint. Not exactly the kind of staying power you'd like to see it if you're spending resources to tailor your personnel for him but it has to be done to compete at the highest level. Let's just hope his trend of short stints reverses here.

[Iggles_Phan]

19 minutes ago, paco said:

Hey guys, I got to work outside most of the day today.  If I wanted to listen to the draft, any recommendations?  (I could just stream YouTube.TV but I don't get great wifi or cell out back so I'm looking for audio only)

Just give @HazletonEagle a call and have him give you a play by play commentary.  Put him on speaker phone.

[HazletonEagle]

8 minutes ago, eagle45 said:

Theo Johnson is an interesting target for today.  

We all know I hate 12 personnel, but one of the biggest liabilities on this team is who to throw the ball to after Brown/Smith/Goedert.  It’s a pretty bare cupboard after those 3 (although I really like Campbell).  TE2 is also pretty unsettled, unless you just want to assume Uzomah can turn back the clock a few years.

Johnson has incredible specs to be a weapon in the passing game, but the problem is that most scouts seem to think those are hollow specs that completely fail to show through in how he plays as a receiver.  

But still…at this point in the draft…this offense needs a depth weapon.  And the Eagles, going back 30 years, have had very clean succession plans at TE with overlap.  Goedert is getting old.

his other issue is that he has a very hard slow time trying to change direction.