Time to put Howie back in the basement? - Discuss Howie Roseman here

[Vman1968]

On 2/12/2021 at 5:49 PM, hputenis said:

Your points led me to a previous post of mine where it would be my worst nightmare if Howie drafts Sewell at 6.  I understand the rebuild, but if they use another 1st on an OL (after trading up for Dillard 2 years ago), I'm gonna lose it.  It would be such a Howie thing to do too.  

I agree that at this point, we have to say Mailata is better than Dillard.  I'm hoping that Dillard comes back to training camp 100% healthy, shows that crazy ballerina footwork he is capable of in pass protection, with added strength, and beats out Mailata for the starting LT spot making Mailata a way above average swing T.  And we draft a receiver at 6 please.  

Actually a Howie move would be drafting a QB.  

[NOTW]

Howie's excuse this offseason: I was getting the players the new coaching staff wanted. 

[no1birdsfan]

Pray they don’t create a new QB controversy and buy Loseman 3-4 more years of sabotage.

[Infam]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:49 PM, hputenis said:

I understand the rebuild, but if they use another 1st on an OL (after trading up for Dillard 2 years ago), I'm gonna lose it.  It would be such a Howie thing to do too.  

Funny, just yesterday someone wrote he neglected the OL for years.. I guess take whatever you don't like and blame it on this guy.

But seems crazy to me: Drafting OL clearly is one of our biggest strength, as is cap management (wait and see..). Another top complaint is about drafting Reagor.

I mean.. really? That's the things you guys complain about? 😄

[brkmsn]

7 hours ago, Infam said:

I mean.. really? That's the things you guys complain about? 😄

The other thing that is odd around here is that most people were demanding a rebuild, complaining that we are holding o too long to old players and preventing young players from developing. Then when we draft a guy like Reagor, they give up on him because of Jefferson. Many had given up on Mailata before the season who was expected to be a long-term project. They want this rebuild, but they can't wait patiently for players to develop. 

[NOTW]

 

 

 

[Infam]

1 minute ago, NOTW said:

 

 

 

Such a stupid take. No, if you sit on 200M cap, you are almost certainly not doing a good job.

After so many years, where every time people say: well the Eagles can't make big moves in FA, because we got no cap... Please. Just stop. 😄

[UK_EaglesFan89]

41 minutes ago, Infam said:

Such a stupid take. No, if you sit on 200M cap, you are almost certainly not doing a good job.

After so many years, where every time people say: well the Eagles can't make big moves in FA, because we got no cap... Please. Just stop. 😄

Actually it isn't a stupid take. It's an accurate take. Howie has been lauded as a cap genius. A cap genius wouldn't be in the position that Howie finds himself in now. Every GM in the NFL manages the cap. 

I agree the worst GMs are those who sit on a lot of cap space every year. No prizes for having a ton of cap space. But every GM manages to keep within the cap. Howie has kicked the can down the road to the point where he's now put the team in a hole. 

[brkmsn]

10 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Actually it isn't a stupid take. It's an accurate take. Howie has been lauded as a cap genius. A cap genius wouldn't be in the position that Howie finds himself in now. Every GM in the NFL manages the cap. 

I agree the worst GMs are those who sit on a lot of cap space every year. No prizes for having a ton of cap space. But every GM manages to keep within the cap. Howie has kicked the can down the road to the point where he's now put the team in a hole. 

Every single team cuts high priced players almost every year. Every single team eats dead money. Every single team has a year where they enter the season in the red and lose big name FAs to other teams because they can't afford to keep them.  The only team that managed to stay in the picture almost every year with a big name QB under contract was the Patriots and they did it because Brady never played for his true market value because his wife is so rich. 

So unless you can draft a G.O.A.T that happens to be wealthier than some of the owners, you'll probably never avoid a pure "cap hell" season. If you aren't taking chances trying to extend a period of success when you go all the way, you're actually pretty dumb. 

Not every Howie move has been gold. Some have been bad, but the only thing that probably wasn't part of his plan was covid and the ensuing cap reduction. So he has a bigger challenge than anticipated. He's still here, still working for the Eagles, so let's see how he manages this.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Just now, brkmsn said:

Not every Howie move has been gold. Some have been bad, but the only thing that probably wasn't part of his plan was covid and the ensuing cap reduction. So he has a bigger challenge than anticipated. He's still here, still working for the Eagles, so let's see how he manages this.

See I disagree. For me Howie is paying for this team going all in on that window. Bringing back guys longer than they should have and not drafting well. 

Yes every team faces cap issues. Every team has to make difficult cap decisions. But I don't think you see a bottom third of the league roster have cap issues like this! This is a bad roster in a bad cap spot. That's down to a poor GM.

[brkmsn]

51 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

See I disagree. For me Howie is paying for this team going all in on that window. Bringing back guys longer than they should have and not drafting well. 

Yes every team faces cap issues. Every team has to make difficult cap decisions. But I don't think you see a bottom third of the league roster have cap issues like this! This is a bad roster in a bad cap spot. That's down to a poor GM.

This was not a bottom-third team when healthy. Even next year, regardless of whether we stay with Wentz or move on with Hurts, I see an 8-8 team minimum --- and that's with the expectation that we will be parting with Djax, M. Jackson, Jeffery, Ertz, and then I believe Kelce will likely retire and Wentz will be traded anyway. After all that, I see an 8-8 team at worst. This was a bad year. You can't control the injuries, but there are things you can control and we botched those things in 2020. So combined, it created an illusion that, I believe, Negedelphians have all bought into. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

8 hours ago, brkmsn said:

This was not a bottom-third team when healthy. Even next year, regardless of whether we stay with Wentz or move on with Hurts, I see an 8-8 team minimum --- and that's with the expectation that we will be parting with Djax, M. Jackson, Jeffery, Ertz, and then I believe Kelce will likely retire and Wentz will be traded anyway. After all that, I see an 8-8 team at worst. This was a bad year. You can't control the injuries, but there are things you can control and we botched those things in 2020. So combined, it created an illusion that, I believe, Negedelphians have all bought into. 

You're kidding? This is a bottom third roster. This year it was bottom fifth so bottom third is being kind. The QB position is a mess, the WRs really aren't that good, the OL is ageing and they are going to trade or cut their most reliable weapon of the last few years (2020 aside). Their secondary is atrocious and their LBs really aren't very good. The DL is good but Jackson is going to move on and BG is another year older. Oh and Barnett may not even be back. This is a bad bad roster dude. 

[Cochis_Calhoun]

On 2/12/2021 at 10:49 PM, hputenis said:

I agree that at this point, we have to say Mailata is better than Dillard.  I'm hoping that Dillard comes back to training camp 100% healthy, shows that crazy ballerina footwork he is capable of in pass protection, with added strength, and beats out Mailata for the starting LT spot making Mailata a way above average swing T.  And we draft a receiver at 6 please.  

Mailata is a free agent at the end of next season, we aren't keeping him on backup swing tackle money after the 'rookie' season he just had, he'll get a big offer to start somewhere. Howie should be talking with him about now to be honest.

Mailata might be about as attractive a trade piece as the Eagles have to be honest, his age and the position he plays and the way he's improved consistently with experience, is exactly why he shouldn't be thrown in with Wentz as a makeweight for the trade. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

37 minutes ago, Cochis_Calhoun said:

Mailata is a free agent at the end of next season, we aren't keeping him on backup swing tackle money after the 'rookie' season he just had, he'll get a big offer to start somewhere. Howie should be talking with him about now to be honest.

Mailata might be about as attractive a trade piece as the Eagles have to be honest, his age and the position he plays and the way he's improved consistently with experience, is exactly why he shouldn't be thrown in with Wentz as a makeweight for the trade. 

I don't think he's going to be in a position to demand a big offer though. He played pretty well as a rookie and yes you'd expect him to improve going forwards but he's still got a long way to go. Who knows what his ceiling is, the physical attributes are there and he's making progress but he's what 4 years in to this experiment now? And he's still got a long way to go to receive a "big offer".

[Infam]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

You're kidding? This is a bottom third roster. This year it was bottom fifth so bottom third is being kind. The QB position is a mess, the WRs really aren't that good, the OL is ageing and they are going to trade or cut their most reliable weapon of the last few years (2020 aside). Their secondary is atrocious and their LBs really aren't very good. The DL is good but Jackson is going to move on and BG is another year older. Oh and Barnett may not even be back. This is a bad bad roster dude. 

It got some holes, for sure. But the narrative that it is terrible, and all picks were bad is just flat out wrong.

 

Mailata-Seumalo-Kelce-Brooks-Johnson, with Dillard, Driscoll and Toth as backups has elite potential.

Sure, if Kelce retires we need to replace him. But I think he won't go out like this.

I believe in Hurts and think he will be great next year. Laugh if you must, but I am convinced he can be our franchise QB.

So then we got Sanders, Goedert, Reagor...

Fulgham, Ward and Scott should at least be decent backups too. Need more weapons, but trust me - we will draft some. And I haven't even given up on all of our WRs yet, either. 

 

Barnett-Cox-Hargreave-Graham could be a pretty good DL too, with Sweat and Ridgeway as decent backups imo.

I think McLeod and Mills are not that bad at safety, it was just really unfortunate Mills was forced back to outside corner and McLeod got hurt. But they didn't look bad at all.

Then you got Slay, Maddox can be a decent slot imo. Singleton showed some promise. 

Still need a top CB, a top LB and a safety wouldn't hurt, I give you that.

 

But please, stop listening to BLG and his BS and take a real look at our roster. It's not that bad!

The next year could be pretty good - if we have a really good draft, winning the East is easy.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

Let me break this down bit by bit bud. FWIW I don't complete disagree but I think we see things slightly differently (which is absolutely fine).

11 minutes ago, Infam said:

Mailata-Seumalo-Kelce-Brooks-Johnson, with Dillard, Driscoll and Toth as backups has elite potential.

Sure, if Kelce retires we need to replace him. But I think he won't go out like this.

Mailata showed promise but he's got a way to go still. Kelce may well retire as you say and to be honest that shouldn't be understated here. I know what you mean about not wanting to go out like this but then why come back? This team isn't a contender, this team is heading in to a rebuild. Why put your body on the line, why go through all that for nothing? Driscill showed some promise but also kept getting hurt.

13 minutes ago, Infam said:

I believe in Hurts and think he will be great next year. Laugh if you must, but I am convinced he can be our franchise QB.

So then we got Sanders, Goedert, Reagor...

Fulgham, Ward and Scott should at least be decent backups too. Need more weapons, but trust me - we will draft some. And I haven't even given up on all of our WRs yet, either.

Look if Hurts is great then I think this team can get to .500 which in this division may be enough to make the play offs! But I think it's a stretch to say Hurts is going to be great. He showed promise in those 4 games, he showed he has something to like but he also has flaws and issues.

Sanders can't seem to stay healthy, Goedert didn't exactly break out with Ertz injured and not being the primary target and Reagor didn't show a great deal. He flashed at times but that was it. Now look in a different scheme with a new HC maybe it will be different! I don't think they used Reagor in the way they should have but we don't know what we have in Reagor at this point.

Scott is nothing more than a RB #3. Ward is a solid player and can be fine if surrounded with more dynamic weapons.

16 minutes ago, Infam said:

Barnett-Cox-Hargreave-Graham could be a pretty good DL too, with Sweat and Ridgeway as decent backups imo.

I think McLeod and Mills are not that bad at safety, it was just really unfortunate Mills was forced back to outside corner and McLeod got hurt. But they didn't look bad at all.

Then you got Slay, Maddox can be a decent slot imo. Singleton showed some promise. 

Still need a top CB, a top LB and a safety wouldn't hurt, I give you that.

The defense is decent but nothing more. The DL can be really good when healthy but Cox seems to be declining, BG is another year older and we don't know if Barnett will be back.

The secondary is bad. Slay is ageing and had his struggles, there is nobody opposite him (and I have zero faith in Howie to address that properly this off season) and McLeod is coming back from an ACL tear! Who knows when he will be back and how good he will be when he does come back.

17 minutes ago, Infam said:

But please, stop listening to BLG and his BS and take a real look at our roster. It's not that bad!

The next year could be pretty good - if we have a really good draft, winning the East is easy.

I don't really listen to BLG to be honest. I have had a real look at our roster and I was concerned going in to last year. And now this roster is going to be further broken up and at a number of positions another year older.

[Infam]

4 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Look if Hurts is great then I think this team can get to .500 which in this division may be enough to make the play offs! But I think it's a stretch to say Hurts is going to be great. He showed promise in those 4 games, he showed he has something to like but he also has flaws and issues.

In my opinion, given the situation Hurts was thrown in: No offseason, Rookie, Backup in a team with a losing streak, with a hurt OL (and an historic amount of different starting line configurations) and a benched QB that still many like on this team - given all that Hurts was phenomenal. And I am absolutely convinced, if he is the starter, training with the WRs since February on a healthy team: Next year he will blow us all away. That's just a gut feeling, but hey, that's how I see it.

Yeah, all of this could go two ways. But the Eagles are not a garbage team like the Cowboys or the Texans. Nobody can doubt that this team is made up of fighters.

And that leads me to believe we will turn this around. I know Lurie said we will rebuild 2-5 years, but I think a comeback is likely if we draft well and stay healthy.

Those are two pretty damn big ifs, no doubt. And I see how you are way more pessimistic than I am because of them. And then there is the x-factor of the new coaching, too.

But let's say we keep the players I mentioned, cut the rest (should get us under the cap if I got this right), and then trade Wentz for a first. Go ahead and draft Smith and Surtain in the first, then a guy like Humphrey in the second, followed by a safety and a TE.. All of a sudden we could look pretty damn good.

[Cochis_Calhoun]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

I don't think he's going to be in a position to demand a big offer though. He played pretty well as a rookie and yes you'd expect him to improve going forwards but he's still got a long way to go. Who knows what his ceiling is, the physical attributes are there and he's making progress but he's what 4 years in to this experiment now? And he's still got a long way to go to receive a "big offer".

He won't need to demand, the Eagles were lucky that they pulled the trigger on him as a late round flier in that draft, there was a lot of other teams looking to take a chance, and he's now achieving what the physical tools pointed at, he's proven he can play left tackle in the NFL at a decent level and he's only going to get better, if Vaitai can get offered $9million a season after a couple of seasons as a solid but inconsistent swing tackle then Mailata's going to be offered at least that.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

1 hour ago, Infam said:

Yeah, all of this could go two ways. But the Eagles are not a garbage team like the Cowboys or the Texans. Nobody can doubt that this team is made up of fighters.

And that leads me to believe we will turn this around. I know Lurie said we will rebuild 2-5 years, but I think a comeback is likely if we draft well and stay healthy.

Both the Texans and the Cowboys have more talent than the Eagles do. Certainly the Cowboys do, I guess it is more of an argument with the Texans.

Howie can't draft so I am not sure how we can expect him to turn it around so quickly.

[Infam]

4 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Both the Texans and the Cowboys have more talent than the Eagles do. Certainly the Cowboys do, I guess it is more of an argument with the Texans.

Howie can't draft so I am not sure how we can expect him to turn it around so quickly.

I haven't been talking about talent. Every year the media is talking about the Cowboys as a super bowl contender. And every year they are hard evidence that talent alone doesn't mean much if you have a bunch of characterless thugs that aren't a team. 

And for a guy that can't draft you agreed on plenty of players that are good that he drafted..

[UK_EaglesFan89]

5 minutes ago, Infam said:

And for a guy that can't draft you agreed on plenty of players that are good that he drafted..

Did I?

Like? I said Mailata had shown promise but had a long way to go. Howie deserves some credit there but lets be honest that's Stoutland's work.

Sanders can't stay healthy. Goedert didn't break out last year despite an opportunity to do so. I like Reagor but he didn't show a lot. I mean where did I actually agree on plenty of players that are good that he drafted?  I said this roster is a bad roster and that is in large part because Howie is terrible in the draft. Does that mean he misses on every single pick? No but he does miss on a lot.

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, Infam said:

I haven't been talking about talent. Every year the media is talking about the Cowboys as a super bowl contender. And every year they are hard evidence that talent alone doesn't mean much if you have a bunch of characterless thugs that aren't a team. 

And for a guy that can't draft you agreed on plenty of players that are good that he drafted..

Howie’s problem isn’t that he never gets good players. It’s that he rarely, if ever, gets true difference makers. The types that can take over a game. Howie, at his best more often than not, is going to get ok to decent players. The type of players who are going to lead you consistently to 7 to 9 wins a season. In other words, very mediocre. 
 

I give Howie all the credit he deserves for LII. He absolutely played a part is us winning it all that year, however, most people can see it was done by nailing every free agent signing, (aside from Warmack) and coming through on a couple trades that year. Basically, he did something that was great one time, but not sustainable. 

[brkmsn]

6 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

You're kidding? This is a bottom third roster. This year it was bottom fifth so bottom third is being kind. The QB position is a mess, the WRs really aren't that good, the OL is ageing and they are going to trade or cut their most reliable weapon of the last few years (2020 aside). Their secondary is atrocious and their LBs really aren't very good. The DL is good but Jackson is going to move on and BG is another year older. Oh and Barnett may not even be back. This is a bad bad roster dude. 

You may be worried about QB, but honestly I am not. I've seen enough from Hurts to be optimistic and should we end up actually keeping Wentz, I would expect his QBR to be in the 90s minimum. Oh no! The OL has guys in their low 30s! Who cares? If they play like they should (the "old" guys), they'll be in the Pro Bowl. For every "old" guy we already have a competent, young replacement (Mailata, Dillard, Driscoll, Herbig, Juriga). We drafted Ertz' replacement years ago and he's a better blocker. Singleton was actually one of the higher graded LBs in the NFL last season. I know it's hard to accept because he wasn't an early draft pick with college accolades, but he proved he's a good LB. Overall, it's a young group, but Edwards, has been solid, Bradley played well when asked to play and Taylor should be getting comfortable. I don't care about Graham's age (please stop bringing age up to me). I don't care about any player's age. I care about how they play. It's very unlikely the Eagles part with Barnett. 

[ManchesterEagle]

9 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Howie’s problem isn’t that he never gets good players. It’s that he rarely, if ever, gets true difference makers. The types that can take over a game. Howie, at his best more often than not, is going to get ok to decent players. The type of players who are going to lead you consistently to 7 to 9 wins a season. In other words, very mediocre. 
 

I give Howie all the credit he deserves for LII. He absolutely played a part is us winning it all that year, however, most people can see it was done by nailing every free agent signing, (aside from Warmack) and coming through on a couple trades that year. Basically, he did something that was great one time, but not sustainable. 

 

2 hours ago, Infam said:

I haven't been talking about talent. Every year the media is talking about the Cowboys as a super bowl contender. And every year they are hard evidence that talent alone doesn't mean much if you have a bunch of characterless thugs that aren't a team. 

And for a guy that can't draft you agreed on plenty of players that are good that he drafted..

 

2 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Did I?

Like? I said Mailata had shown promise but had a long way to go. Howie deserves some credit there but lets be honest that's Stoutland's work.

Sanders can't stay healthy. Goedert didn't break out last year despite an opportunity to do so. I like Reagor but he didn't show a lot. I mean where did I actually agree on plenty of players that are good that he drafted?  I said this roster is a bad roster and that is in large part because Howie is terrible in the draft. Does that mean he misses on every single pick? No but he does miss on a lot.

Here's where I am with Howie:

1) His drafting is nowhere near as bad as some of the media make out. We have not had really high picks for years. Go and look at some other teams draft history. Teams miss all the time. The biggest complaints about Howie have been missing on Metcalf and Jefferson. Metcalf had major flags. 3 other receivers were taken after JJAW. Jefferson, well that looks like a miss, but a lot of the board would have mortgaged the farm to move up for Ruggs (who was worst than Reagor) or Lamb (who was actually pretty good). Nobody expected JJ to be as good as he has been. Reagor is not a bust, he showed flashes, needs development. Howie's had some really good picks. Sanders, Goedert, Isaac, Vaitai, Mills (yes a 7th rounder who started all season on a 4th ranked D and Super Bowl winning team is a good pick). Mailata was a great pick. 

2) Equally his drafting is not great. No pro bowl players since Wentz. JJAW was a disaster. So was Pumphrey in a loaded RB class. Overall I'd say he was a bit below average at drafting. 

3) He deserves all the credit in the world for the Super Bowl win. Some incredible FA moves/trades. 

4) He is good with the cap. Covid has caused a mess. Howie will find a way to sort it. 

5) He has made some mistakes with contracts and bringing back older players no doubt. The Wentz contract was a over pay given the risks and uncertainty when we still had him under control for at least a couple more years.

6) The team has been brutally unlucky with injuries. Some of that is on Howie (Peters/Jackson etc). Some of it is just bad luck.

7) He has badly neglected the D and that's one thing he doesn't get enough criticism for in my view. Just 2 top 100 picks in the last 5 years. That's not nearly enough. Going into last season with Maddox as starter and cutting Douglas and Jones when we had no depth there? Really bad.

 

So for me a real mixed bag. I think a lot will depend on how he handles Wentz and the trade, whether he nails pick 6 and ultimately his job will probably depend on whether Hurts can develop into a franchise QB. I am not a fan of Howie, but he is much better than some give him credit for. He's not going anywhere for now. Let's see how the next year plays out.

  

[EagleJoe8]

7 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

 

 

Here's where I am with Howie:

1) His drafting is nowhere near as bad as some of the media make out. We have not had really high picks for years. Go and look at some other teams draft history. Teams miss all the time. The biggest complaints about Howie have been missing on Metcalf and Jefferson. Metcalf had major flags. 3 other receivers were taken after JJAW. Jefferson, well that looks like a miss, but a lot of the board would have mortgaged the farm to move up for Ruggs (who was worst than Reagor) or Lamb (who was actually pretty good). Nobody expected JJ to be as good as he has been. Reagor is not a bust, he showed flashes, needs development. Howie's had some really good picks. Sanders, Goedert, Isaac, Vaitai, Mills (yes a 7th rounder who started all season on a 4th ranked D and Super Bowl winning team is a good pick). Mailata was a great pick. 

2) Equally his drafting is not great. No pro bowl players since Wentz. JJAW was a disaster. So was Pumphrey in a loaded RB class. Overall I'd say he was a bit below average at drafting. 

3) He deserves all the credit in the world for the Super Bowl win. Some incredible FA moves/trades. 

4) He is good with the cap. Covid has caused a mess. Howie will find a way to sort it. 

5) He has made some mistakes with contracts and bringing back older players no doubt. The Wentz contract was a over pay given the risks and uncertainty when we still had him under control for at least a couple more years.

6) The team has been brutally unlucky with injuries. Some of that is on Howie (Peters/Jackson etc). Some of it is just bad luck.

7) He has badly neglected the D and that's one thing he doesn't get enough criticism for in my view. Just 2 top 100 picks in the last 5 years. That's not nearly enough. Going into last season with Maddox as starter and cutting Douglas and Jones when we had no depth there? Really bad.

 

So for me a real mixed bag. I think a lot will depend on how he handles Wentz and the trade, whether he nails pick 6 and ultimately his job will probably depend on whether Hurts can develop into a franchise QB. I am not a fan of Howie, but he is much better than some give him credit for. He's not going anywhere for now. Let's see how the next year plays out.

  

Doesn’t really sound like you disagreed with me that much. I agree he has had some nice picks. The problem is "nice” is about the best you can do with most of them. There are still no difference makers. No one you can say to yourself, this guy can take over a game at any minute. Sanders may be the closest, but unfortunately, he also plays a position that in today’s league, it’s best not to build around anyway. RBs fall off a Cliff too quickly. Zeke looked like he’d be the next huge thing. 5 years and $90 million later, he’s quickly started looking more and more JAG like.