Time to put Howie back in the basement? - Discuss Howie Roseman here

[eglz1]

4 hours ago, Infam said:

 It's not that bad!

The next year could be pretty good - if we have a really good draft, winning the East is easy.

We have a competent person running the draft at last? I hadn't heard, that is certainly wonderful to hear! I'm looking forward to it.

PS What's Howie role in this scheme?

[ManchesterEagle]

13 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Doesn’t really sound like you disagreed with me that much. I agree he has had some nice picks. The problem is "nice” is about the best you can do with most of them. There are still no difference makers. No one you can say to yourself, this guy can take over a game at any minute. Sanders may be the closest, but unfortunately, he also plays a position that in today’s league, it’s best not to build around anyway. RBs fall off a Cliff too quickly. Zeke looked like he’d be the next huge thing. 5 years and $90 million later, he’s quickly started looking more and more JAG like. 

Yeah. To be fair Mailata could be a real difference maker.

Goedert in my view also has Top 5 TE potential. He didn’t step up as I hoped last year, but I’m hoping he can get back on track this year.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

18 minutes ago, ManchesterEagle said:

2) Equally his drafting is not great. No pro bowl players since Wentz. JJAW was a disaster. So was Pumphrey in a loaded RB class. Overall I'd say he was a bit below average at drafting. 

3) He deserves all the credit in the world for the Super Bowl win. Some incredible FA moves/trades. 

4) He is good with the cap. Covid has caused a mess. Howie will find a way to sort it. 

His drafting is poor. Very very poor and there is no getting away from that. Does he deserve credit for some of those he hit on? Yes he does but they have been few and far between so I am not going to say Howie's drafting is not great. His drafting is poor. Look at the drafts since 2016!

2016:

Wentz - May soon be off the team.

Seumalo - Decent LG, for a third rounder that's fine no issues.

Smallwood - No longer on the team.

Vaitai - Fine pick and isn't on the team because he got a pretty good contract so no complaints.

Countess - Bad pick but hey late rounder. But you'd like to hit on some of these late rounders.

Mills - Good pick.

McCalister - Bad pick but again late rounder.

Walker - Bad pick but yeah late rounder.

2017:

Barnett - Probably overall slightly disappointing but he's been good at times.

Jones - Bad pick.

Douglas - Bad pick as he didn't fit the scheme.

Hollins - Bad pick.

Pumphrey - Terrible pick in a loaded class.

Gibson - Bad pick.

Gerry - Awful pick.

Qualls - Bad pick but late rounder so fine.

2018:

Goedert - Fine, good pick long term.

Maddox - Jury out there to be honest. First year he was very good, since he's not been but part of that may be a misuse.

Sweat - Very good pick for a rotational guy.

Pryor - Bad pick.

Mailata - Yeah good pick and Howie deserves credit for listening to Stoutland but the bulk of credit goes to Stout.

2019:

Dillard - Jury very much out.

Sanders - Good pick but having issues staying healthy.

JJAW - Terrible terrible pick.

Miller - Awful pick.

Thorson - Awful pick.

2020: 

Reagor - Lets see with this one but I think you'd have liked to have seen more in year 1.

Hurts - May turn out to be a good pick but a waste of a valuable pick in terms of building this roster.

Taylor - OK pick.

Wallace - OK pick.

Driscoll - Decent pick.

Hightower - Started OK but faded and not sure he will stay on the roster?

Bradley - Did OK with limited snaps. But given how bad the LBs were at the start of the year it is a little troubling that he didn't feature more.

Watkins - OK pick lets see.

Wanogho - Lets see.

Toohill - Late rounder but was cut by the team year 1 so not great.

It's overall a pretty poor show. Some hits, some misses and a lot of OK's there. That's overall a bad job to me. I think it's reasonable to expect to hit on more of the rounds 1 - 3 and to have at least some depth guys from the later rounders.

[Infam]

14 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Some hits, some misses and a lot of OK's there. That's overall a bad job to me.

Then every GM in the NFL does a bad job most of the time.

[ManchesterEagle]

37 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

 

It's overall a pretty poor show. Some hits, some misses and a lot of OK's there. That's overall a bad job to me. I think it's reasonable to expect to hit on more of the rounds 1 - 3 and to have at least some depth guys from the later rounders.

 

21 minutes ago, Infam said:

Then every GM in the NFL does a bad job most of the time.

UK - I agree with a lot of your analysis on the picks, but two main points:

1) It's way too early to judge 2020. Possibly too early to judge 2019. Hurts could turn into a top 10 QB. If he does that alone would make it a great draft. We don't know how good Reagor is. Taylor was always a project, so will have to wait a year or two.

2) As Infam says, I think your expectations are too high. When you get 5-10 minutes - just type in a few random teams' draft history. Look over the past 5-6 years. You'll be shocked about how many names you don't recognise, even in the first 3 rounds. Because those players are out of the league or buried on a depth chart. 

[nipples]

As much as I don’t like Howie, it’s hard to blame him if he can’t get good compensation for Wentz, if the reports about Carson not wanting to go to Chicago are true. Sure he can still trade him wherever he wants, but the Bears would likely only do the deal if Wentz wants to be there. If Carson is digging his heels in and insisting on Indy (don’t know if that’s the case, but it’s the rumor), then there’s little Howie can do unless he can drum up real interest from another team that Wentz WOULD want to play for. 

[Traveler Vic]

7 hours ago, nipples said:

As much as I don’t like Howie, it’s hard to blame him if he can’t get good compensation for Wentz, if the reports about Carson not wanting to go to Chicago are true. Sure he can still trade him wherever he wants, but the Bears would likely only do the deal if Wentz wants to be there. If Carson is digging his heels in and insisting on Indy (don’t know if that’s the case, but it’s the rumor), then there’s little Howie can do unless he can drum up real interest from another team that Wentz WOULD want to play for. 

This is where you are wrong ...It is very easy to blame Howie. He is the GM and every mess on this team ....is his creation. 

[PoconoDon]

12 hours ago, Infam said:

Then every GM in the NFL does a bad job most of the time.

I disagree. First, the returns realized by KC, SEA, DAL, PIT, NO, BAL, and a few others over the past 5 or even 10 years has been significantly better than what Howie has brought here through the draft. Secondly, and more important to my mind, is the maddening application of the "everyone else is doing it" defense. What every other GM does has no direct effect or influence on the performance of the Eagles' GM. The goal here is to have the best GM. That means the #1 GM in the NFL, who consistently proves it over a significant time period. Anything less is short of the goal. Howie is currently way, way short of the goal. He's below average with no incentive to improve and no consequences if he doesn't. 

Being satisfied with mediocrity means building and keeping a mediocre team. That's what Howie gives us because every year more positions require a bigtime upgrade through the draft, not a trade, but the draft, and he is incapable of delivering on so many positions. So, he makes a couple band-aid trades and the team continues it's overall erosion. We are watching it happen in real time. As a fan, I want Jeffrey Lurie to set the bar much, much higher for the GM position, but alas, there is no indication that he will any time soon. There appears to be a string of 3-6 win seasons on the horizon, so buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[NOTW]

The Bucs were celebrated for drafting so well especially on defense, not just acquiring Brady and Gronk.

Howie could not build a defense through the draft. 

[EazyEaglez]

On 9/20/2020 at 10:40 PM, ToDie4Eagles said:

BUMP

Every couple of weeks this needs a bump! 😂

[EazyEaglez]

13 hours ago, Infam said:

Then every GM in the NFL does a bad job most of the time.

It’s not that he’s had a couple of bad picks that is the problem. It’s his lack of really good ones for a long time now. Since his return from the doldrums of the basement easily his best pick was Wentz, and here we are a few seasons later ready to move on from him. The next best player since is like Jalen Mills or Seumalo. On top of that he’s had seasons of clear needs and deep drafts in those positions, but he still somehow picks the worst guy of the group every time. On top of that he boldly said that he moved up to get Wentz, because in the next few seasons there wouldn’t be any good quarterbacks coming out and the very next year (in his city) Watson and Mahomes were drafted. He also made the excuse for moving up to get Wentz cost them a lost of draft stock, but KC moved up to get Mahomes and look where they are compared to the Eagles. No more excuses for this guy. He’s done a terrible job. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

3 hours ago, EazyEaglez said:

It’s not that he’s had a couple of bad picks that is the problem. It’s his lack of really good ones for a long time now. Since his return from the doldrums of the basement easily his best pick was Wentz, and here we are a few seasons later ready to move on from him. The next best player since is like Jalen Mills or Seumalo. On top of that he’s had seasons of clear needs and deep drafts in those positions, but he still somehow picks the worst guy of the group every time. On top of that he boldly said that he moved up to get Wentz, because in the next few seasons there wouldn’t be any good quarterbacks coming out and the very next year (in his city) Watson and Mahomes were drafted. He also made the excuse for moving up to get Wentz cost them a lost of draft stock, but KC moved up to get Mahomes and look where they are compared to the Eagles. No more excuses for this guy. He’s done a terrible job. 

Absolutely agree with you. 2 Pro Bowlers in how many years? And one of those was of course Wentz who may now be on his way. 

I think he's done a decent job of drafting along the OL. I think he's added some nice young pieces and given Stout some talent to work with. He deserves credit for that. But that's about the only credit he deserves in terms of his drafting. 

[EazyEaglez]

3 hours ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Absolutely agree with you. 2 Pro Bowlers in how many years? And one of those was of course Wentz who may now be on his way. 

I think he's done a decent job of drafting along the OL. I think he's added some nice young pieces and given Stout some talent to work with. He deserves credit for that. But that's about the only credit he deserves in terms of his drafting. 

He still hasn’t drafted an all pro level talent since Lane. I will give him credit for Lane, because we all assume that Chip wanted the kid Miami drafted. 

[UK_EaglesFan89]

58 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

He still hasn’t drafted an all pro level talent since Lane. I will give him credit for Lane, because we all assume that Chip wanted the kid Miami drafted. 

Yeah he deserves credit for Lane. And look he has made some decent moves so it isn't all bad. It is just a lot more bad than good in my opinion.

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

He still hasn’t drafted an all pro level talent since Lane. I will give him credit for Lane, because we all assume that Chip wanted the kid Miami drafted. 

What that tells me is that Howie can do well if he’s that high in the first round. Even Wentz wasn’t a bad pick at the time. Many things went wrong since. 
 

What really needs to happen, is Lurie needs to talk to Goodell and say: "Look Rog, here’s the thing. Howie is having trouble with all the other teams taking his players. Would it be possible just to let Howie use all his picks first? We’ll then sit out the rest of the draft. It’d make Howie happy.”

[EazyEaglez]

2 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

What that tells me is that Howie can do well if he’s that high in the first round. Even Wentz wasn’t a bad pick at the time. Many things went wrong since. 
 

What really needs to happen, is Lurie needs to talk to Goodell and say: "Look Rog, here’s the thing. Howie is having trouble with all the other teams taking his players. Would it be possible just to let Howie use all his picks first? We’ll then sit out the rest of the draft. It’d make Howie happy.”

Despite how things are going the truth is someone is doing something right here too, because the Eagles aren’t consistently drafting in the top five or even in the top ten. It’s how they can get away with a lot of their crap statements like gold standard. Heck people have said the Cowboys are a better team roster wise over the past twenty years and they have won like one playoff game and has been in the top five to ten more times than the Eagles. 

[EazyEaglez]

1 hour ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

Yeah he deserves credit for Lane. And look he has made some decent moves so it isn't all bad. It is just a lot more bad than good in my opinion.

I agree that it isn’t all bad, but even his good picks have issues. Wentz was supposed to be our guy for the next decade well so much for that. Lane is one PED bust from a full year off. Even the good stuff has considerable baggage with it. 

[EagleJoe8]

1 minute ago, EazyEaglez said:

Despite how things are going the truth is someone is doing something right here too, because the Eagles aren’t consistently drafting in the top five or even in the top ten. It’s how they can get away with a lot of their crap statements like gold standard. Heck people have said the Cowboys are a better team roster wise over the past twenty years and they have won like one playoff game and has been in the top five to ten more times than the Eagles. 

I think there’s a difference between having good talent, and being a good team. Dallas in more recent years has drafted well, but they’re not necessarily a great team. If they ever get good coaching and stop reading their own headlines, they could be great again. Hopefully that never happens. 
 

The Eagles to their credit, have had good coaching the better part of the last 20 years. That time frame also includes a good chunk of time where Howie didn’t have final say. Howie is best judged from 2016 and on where we know he was in charge and had final say. 

[EazyEaglez]

2 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

I think there’s a difference between having good talent, and being a good team. Dallas in more recent years has drafted well, but they’re not necessarily a great team. If they ever get good coaching and stop reading their own headlines, they could be great again. Hopefully that never happens. 
 

The Eagles to their credit, have had good coaching the better part of the last 20 years. That time frame also includes a good chunk of time where Howie didn’t have final say. Howie is best judged from 2016 and on where we know he was in charge and had final say. 

Even in 2017 they won the Super Bowl and the next year they went to Chicago and won a playoff game too. I don’t fully understand it, because it feels like they won a lot of games, but it feels like they’re kind of incompetent too. Some people think Doug was a terrible coach,  yet somehow he won 4 playoff games and a Super Bowl with Nick Foles as his quarterback and that dude has pretty much failed everywhere else he’s been. I really can’t figure it out, but I do feel like Howie is not doing a good enough job as a whole. In fact I feel like Howie should have been fired before Doug got fired or Wentz gets traded. 

[Vman1968]

19 hours ago, nipples said:

As much as I don’t like Howie, it’s hard to blame him if he can’t get good compensation for Wentz, if the reports about Carson not wanting to go to Chicago are true. Sure he can still trade him wherever he wants, but the Bears would likely only do the deal if Wentz wants to be there. If Carson is digging his heels in and insisting on Indy (don’t know if that’s the case, but it’s the rumor), then there’s little Howie can do unless he can drum up real interest from another team that Wentz WOULD want to play for. 

you are wrong.  He created the entire mess,  Giving Wentz a big contract and then drafting a QB with the 2nd pick.  You do one or the other.   Doing both is a recipe for disaster as we are dealing with now.   If you felt you needed to add another QB for one reason or another, they don't give him the money.   If you give him the money your priority becomes getting him weapons and protecting him.   Hurts accomplishes nothing and what is inevitable in philly with QBs and back up is going to happen.   i would've preferred Wentz to have stepped up but that didnt happen and now roseman looks like an idiot because they are going to have to ditch wentz and there is still talk of drafting a QB. Roseman needs to go, but he never will

[UK_EaglesFan89]

40 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

I agree that it isn’t all bad, but even his good picks have issues. Wentz was supposed to be our guy for the next decade well so much for that. Lane is one PED bust from a full year off. Even the good stuff has considerable baggage with it. 

And every GM has those questionable moves, they have their bad moves... But when the bad outweighs the good then there's a serious issue with that GM.

[EazyEaglez]

44 minutes ago, UK_EaglesFan89 said:

And every GM has those questionable moves, they have their bad moves... But when the bad outweighs the good then there's a serious issue with that GM.

Of course the owner would say in 2017 his guy won Executive of the year so he thinks his guy is golden. 

[EagleJoe8]

1 hour ago, EazyEaglez said:

Even in 2017 they won the Super Bowl and the next year they went to Chicago and won a playoff game too. I don’t fully understand it, because it feels like they won a lot of games, but it feels like they’re kind of incompetent too. Some people think Doug was a terrible coach,  yet somehow he won 4 playoff games and a Super Bowl with Nick Foles as his quarterback and that dude has pretty much failed everywhere else he’s been. I really can’t figure it out, but I do feel like Howie is not doing a good enough job as a whole. In fact I feel like Howie should have been fired before Doug got fired or Wentz gets traded. 

Some of it is good coaching some is dumb luck too. We could just as easily have lost the Bears game if the ball doesn’t get tipped. Hell, just getting the 6 seed needed us to see Chicago win a game they didn’t need to win. 

[EazyEaglez]

6 minutes ago, EagleJoe8 said:

Some of it is good coaching some is dumb luck too. We could just as easily have lost the Bears game if the ball doesn’t get tipped. Hell, just getting the 6 seed needed us to see Chicago win a game they didn’t need to win. 

In any case Howie is going to be here making this pick so I hope he doesn’t screw at least that pick up, and he better start realizing that the first three rounds of the draft should be starters within their first year or two and not just backup players. Not for nothing but what is Jalen Hurts? He drafts this guy in case your quarterback gets hurt and forces the team to use him in useless wildcat plays and ultimately ruin the mental of the starting quarterback? He drafts Goedert at the same time to be the backup to a TE in his prime and basically forces the team to use a lot of 12 technique? He drafts JJAW to be the heir apparent for Jeffery, but gives Jeffery a big contract extension at the same time? Seriously why is he wasting picks like this and setting the franchise back? There are are literally far more needs on this team that actually needed starters than to waste time drafting a bunch of backups and just in case players early in the draft. Even if Hurts turns out to be good that draft philosophy is terrible. 

[EagleJoe8]

20 minutes ago, EazyEaglez said:

In any case Howie is going to be here making this pick so I hope he doesn’t screw at least that pick up, and he better start realizing that the first three rounds of the draft should be starters within their first year or two and not just backup players. Not for nothing but what is Jalen Hurts? He drafts this guy in case your quarterback gets hurt and forces the team to use him in useless wildcat plays and ultimately ruin the mental of the starting quarterback? He drafts Goedert at the same time to be the backup to a TE in his prime and basically forces the team to use a lot of 12 technique? He drafts JJAW to be the heir apparent for Jeffery, but gives Jeffery a big contract extension at the same time? Seriously why is he wasting picks like this and setting the franchise back? There are are literally far more needs on this team that actually needed starters than to waste time drafting a bunch of backups and just in case players early in the draft. Even if Hurts turns out to be good that draft philosophy is terrible. 

You’re not going to find much disagreement from me. I’ve been on the fire Howie bandwagon for awhile.