Time to put Howie back in the basement? - Discuss Howie Roseman here

[Perforator]

22 hours ago, Vman1968 said:

I posted this is Rant n Rave as well.  But appropriate here.

"

Its crystal clear who is the issue here and its Roseman.   But just as much Lurie for being blind to it all.   Roseman clearly was lucky with FA is 2017.   Everything worked.  But the draft still wasn't great.   This team is in Cap Hell because Roseman cant draft and has to get FA every year.   Also continues to ignore the importance of LB's and Safteys which creates a huge hole in the defense.

But the hurts pick is still mind boggling.   it just is.   You just gave Wentz a boat load of money.  and the next year, before that contract even kicks in, you draft a highly rated QB in the draft.   this makes zero sense.   ZERO!   I get that they wanted to protect the position with someone in case Wentz got hurt.   Although he was doing ok the last 2 seasons.   So a solid oline man or another position of need is what should have been drafted.   So of course you immediately cause a controversary and a disconnect with Wentz.   If you werent confident in his ability to stay healthy then why did you sign him to that huge deal?   

Did Wentz handle it well?   Nope.   In fact he handled it has poorly as he could've outside of whining to the media.   But that aside, it was the wrong pick based on the moves you had already made.   So now you trade Wentz and maybe you get a 1 back and something else (Although their aren't many teams as stupid as the Rams but who knows) but you have a huge dead cap number thats gonna make the eagles ditch a lot of players for the sole reason of getting under the cap.   Wasn't this guy  a cap expert?

Now look at the head coaching hiring.   No one of any status wanted anything to do with this job.   The guy they picked, they picked because frankly he wont challenge them on anything. This organization went from Super bowl Champs to one of the worst teams in football in 3 years, fired the head coach and looks to be ditching the QB they basically mortgaged everything for.   

Howie couldn't haven screwed this up anymore if he was actually trying to make this team suck.  Yet is accountable for nothing.   Lurie is an idiot for letting this happen.   Its totally clear that he has no idea how to run a football team.  "

This should be the Turkey Hill post of the year

[NOTW]

23 hours ago, Vman1968 said:

I posted this is Rant n Rave as well.  But appropriate here.

"

Its crystal clear who is the issue here and its Roseman.   But just as much Lurie for being blind to it all.   Roseman clearly was lucky with FA is 2017.   Everything worked.  But the draft still wasn't great.   This team is in Cap Hell because Roseman cant draft and has to get FA every year.   Also continues to ignore the importance of LB's and Safteys which creates a huge hole in the defense.

But the hurts pick is still mind boggling.   it just is.   You just gave Wentz a boat load of money.  and the next year, before that contract even kicks in, you draft a highly rated QB in the draft.   this makes zero sense.   ZERO!   I get that they wanted to protect the position with someone in case Wentz got hurt.   Although he was doing ok the last 2 seasons.   So a solid oline man or another position of need is what should have been drafted.   So of course you immediately cause a controversary and a disconnect with Wentz.   If you werent confident in his ability to stay healthy then why did you sign him to that huge deal?   

Did Wentz handle it well?   Nope.   In fact he handled it has poorly as he could've outside of whining to the media.   But that aside, it was the wrong pick based on the moves you had already made.   So now you trade Wentz and maybe you get a 1 back and something else (Although their aren't many teams as stupid as the Rams but who knows) but you have a huge dead cap number thats gonna make the eagles ditch a lot of players for the sole reason of getting under the cap.   Wasn't this guy  a cap expert?

Now look at the head coaching hiring.   No one of any status wanted anything to do with this job.   The guy they picked, they picked because frankly he wont challenge them on anything. This organization went from Super bowl Champs to one of the worst teams in football in 3 years, fired the head coach and looks to be ditching the QB they basically mortgaged everything for.   

Howie couldn't haven screwed this up anymore if he was actually trying to make this team suck.  Yet is accountable for nothing.   Lurie is an idiot for letting this happen.   Its totally clear that he has no idea how to run a football team.  "

All good points.

I just wanted to comment on the bolded.  Yes, he "was."  He was considered great at the cap and contract negotiations doing things like extending a player and putting more into signing bonus and spreading the cap hit across years and all that.  But then he got away from being smart and was trying to hold onto the Super Bowl winning team and started making bad contract decisions, kicking the can down the road and now here we are with a bad cap.  He will find ways to get under the cap - every team does, they have to.  But it means cutting players and hurting the talent on your team...or kicking the can further down the road and hoping the cap increases.

 I'll give you an example of what he did right:

I recall the offseason when Cox was a free agent.  People panicked when he renegotiated or extended other players, signed outside free agents but wasn't re-signing Cox.  Howie said he wanted to get a deal done and that he would, but fans still panicked.  I argued at the time that what he was doing was smart:  he wanted to get all the other deals taken care of and spread them around cap-wise however best he could to secure those players and have other talent first, and then know what the situation is like for several years out.  That would help him know how best to structure the terms of the deal for Cox.  How much should be as a signing bonus, how much each specific future year, etc.  Had he signed Cox  first, he would then have to work around that deal because it was a large contract, to make all the other deals work around it  Instead, he made it easier on himself to have to manipulate one contract instead of a bunch more. I'm not a finance guy but that seems efficient.

As you pointed out, he struck gold in free agency and trades in 2017.  Now, some of that is "luck" in a way because you don't know what players are going to be available.  The 2 best RBs on the team were not on the roster after the draft was over.  He signed Blount a few weeks after the draft, and traded for Ajayi on Oct 31st.

Blount could have easily been signed elsewhere in March or around draft time, and you don't know Ajayi is going to be available.  

Anyway, the free agents worked out and that was a good trade.  Chris Long wanted to give whatever he had left in the tank.  Foles was thought of as a journeyman backup who wanted to retire at one point.  Many people forget that when Foles took over he didn't look great at first and many fans had concerns.  The coaches worked with him to prepare him and played to his strengths (imagine that).

So a lot of things went right.  They squeezed the last they could out of Alshon Jeffrey, Chris Long, Jason Peters (until hurt), Wiz, Torrey Smith, Foles...and the team embraced the underdog role.

Howie changed after that.  It's understandable to want to repeat but he gave a bad contract to Jeffrey when he should have let him walk.  He paid DeSean Jackson to basically play 1 game.  He let young Beau Allen and Big V go in free agency and kept Jason Peters and Malik Jackson and he also gave big extensions to Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson.  Great players, great work ethic, good guys...but missing significant time to injury 2 years in a row and getting older.  

After the SB he saw no needs so he traded out of the 1st (the Ravens took Lamar Jackson with that pick) and then took a backup TE.  Since he did that, he should have traded Ertz last year when he was at his highest value and make Goedert the starter.  Now Ertz had a public fight with Howie on the field about his contract (very unprofessional) and Ertz struggled with injury and poor performance this year.  Now his trade value is much lower.  

Howie has changed his approach each year as he's learning on the job.  He's a fantasy football nerd and Accountant who got handed the keys and doesn't know what he's doing.  In the same offseason he says he doesn't want to sign free agent band-aids...he signs free agents to 1 year deals.  He hears JJAW is like Alshon Jeffrey so he drafts him.  He knows they need speed, so he drafts all the speed, instead of just getting good players on the board.  

He's all over the place and has no idea how to build a roster through the draft, evaluate players and has no business being anywhere near an NFL draft board.  And to bring it back to the first point, he's not even good anymore at the things he used to be good at.  Bad trades (a 3rd for Golden Tate for half a season e.g.), bad contracts, salary cap hell.  

Lurie needs to wake up.

[UK_EaglesFan89]

6 hours ago, NOTW said:

Yes, he "was." 

I'm not even sure it was that bud. Look I get that we all thought he was great at the cap but bottom line he just kicked the issue down the line. That's fine when you have a good roster but as that roster ages you just end up paying for guys who are not very good anywhere. 

Every GM in the league manages the cap. No GM ever goes over the cap come the deadline. The worst teams, and GMs, tend to be those who have the most cap. Howie is good with the cap but so far probably 20 other GMs. This is why he should not be kept for the contract side. He just needs to go. Flat out. 

[Bwestbrook36]

9 hours ago, NOTW said:

Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson.  Great players, great work ethic, good guys...but missing significant time to injury 2 years in a row and getting older.

I don't believe either of those 2 missed significant time 2 years in a row then got contracts. Brooks missed 1 with the Achilles but came back early and played fantastic and got his deal. Lane already had his deal before he got hurt the last 2 seasons. Signing Jeffery was the right thing to do after the super bowl season.  it was guaranteeing his deal after the saints game that effed us

[RememberTheKoy]

Howie built such a bad team with such a bad cap situation that leaves the Eagles no other option but to tear it down and rebuild yet he has convinced Lurie that the same GM put them in this very position is the one who should be granted the task of doing the rebuild and that both the Super Bowl winning HC and franchise QB, both who had/have major issues with Roseman, need to go. 

 

Just ridiculous.  He once again has snaked his way out of not only survival but also eradicating any opposition within the franchise that has a powerful level of influence with the owner.  Once someone in the organization starts gaining an increasingly high level of clout with the owner Howie masterfully finds ways to get them out. 

[hputenis]

8 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

I don't believe either of those 2 missed significant time 2 years in a row then got contracts. Brooks missed 1 with the Achilles but came back early and played fantastic and got his deal. Lane already had his deal before he got hurt the last 2 seasons. Signing Jeffery was the right thing to do after the super bowl season.  it was guaranteeing his deal after the saints game that effed us

Brooks has had 3 significant injuries in his last 3 years of play, 2 of them being achilles.  Lane is breaking down by the day, and his ankle was completely shattered (yet he still played on it).  While I love these 2 dudes as Eagles for life, it would be smart for this team to plan for their replacements immediately, even though it will never replicate their production on the field.  I'd argue that those 2 healthy in their prime are the best right side I've ever witnessed anywhere.  Then add Kelce and it's borderline legendary.  

[Bwestbrook36]

12 minutes ago, hputenis said:

Brooks has had 3 significant injuries in his last 3 years of play, 2 of them being achilles.  Lane is breaking down by the day, and his ankle was completely shattered (yet he still played on it).  While I love these 2 dudes as Eagles for life, it would be smart for this team to plan for their replacements immediately, even though it will never replicate their production on the field.  I'd argue that those 2 healthy in their prime are the best right side I've ever witnessed anywhere.  Then add Kelce and it's borderline legendary.  

Most definitely but they were both signed before the 2nd and third injury with lane and Brooks. Is what I'm saying

[hputenis]

1 minute ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

Most definitely but they were both signed before the 2nd and third injury with lane and Brooks. Is what I'm saying

Yeah that's a good point.  This is unfortunately a casualty that is gonna destroy this cap over the next 2 seasons.  I can't blame Howie for signing these 2 guys at the time, but I'll be a Philly guy and blame him now.  That being said, I can see Brooks coming back this season and not skipping a beat.  I think Lane is aging quickly.   

[Bwestbrook36]

Just now, hputenis said:

Yeah that's a good point.  This is unfortunately a casualty that is gonna destroy this cap over the next 2 seasons.  I can't blame Howie for signing these 2 guys at the time, but I'll be a Philly guy and blame him now.  That being said, I can see Brooks coming back this season and not skipping a beat.  I think Lane is aging quickly.   

I said that last year about Lane that I think.he is breaking down before his time and I think he is done already. 

[NOTW]

58 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

I don't believe either of those 2 missed significant time 2 years in a row then got contracts. Brooks missed 1 with the Achilles but came back early and played fantastic and got his deal. Lane already had his deal before he got hurt the last 2 seasons. Signing Jeffery was the right thing to do after the super bowl season.  it was guaranteeing his deal after the saints game that effed us

I wasn't saying that happened in that order.  I'm saying when you give big contracts to veterans getting up there in age, that's what can happen.  Peters, Jeffrey, Jackson, Malik Jackson, Johnson, Brooks, Sproles...keep relying on guys that get hurt.  Then they have to rely on younger guys...that Howie drafted.  

[NOTW]

30 minutes ago, hputenis said:

Yeah that's a good point.  This is unfortunately a casualty that is gonna destroy this cap over the next 2 seasons.  I can't blame Howie for signing these 2 guys at the time, but I'll be a Philly guy and blame him now.  That being said, I can see Brooks coming back this season and not skipping a beat.  I think Lane is aging quickly.   

 

28 minutes ago, Bwestbrook36 said:

I said that last year about Lane that I think.he is breaking down before his time and I think he is done already. 

Agree, love those 2 when healthy.  But we said this about Brooks going into last season...now that he's back from injury he'll be--oh, and he's injured again.  And we said they have a winning record with Lane Johnson and losing record without him and if he just-- oh, he's injured again.

Howie locked them up so long now he can't cut or trade them.

1st pic is Lane's contract, 2nd is Brandon's.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/

[hputenis]

1 minute ago, NOTW said:

 

Agree, love those 2 when healthy.  But we said this about Brooks going into last season...now that he's back from injury he'll be--oh, and he's injured again.  And we said they have a winning record with Lane Johnson and losing record without him and if he just-- oh, he's injured again.

Howie locked them up so long now he can't cut or trade them.

1st pic is Lane's contract, 2nd is Brandon's.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/philadelphia-eagles/

Thanks for this.  It's you, @paco, and @downundermike that help me understand the cap.  Now........if someone can help me decode twitter 

[NOTW]

1 hour ago, hputenis said:

Thanks for this.  It's you, @paco, and @downundermike that help me understand the cap.  Now........if someone can help me decode twitter 

F Twitter.

I don't understand the cap that well, I've been trying to learn also.  We are noting this year that Carson has a $34 million cap hit, Lane's is $39 this year and $21 next year (it changes before and after June 1st and the website you can change the drop down to what it would look like to be cut vs traded).

So Lane's not going anywhere for at least 2 years, Brooks 1 more year.  

Good thing they have backups.  Mailata and Herbig both have 1 more year under contract.  Mailata, they'll have to pay him starter money to keep him but Lane will still be there also.  Unless Dillard doesn't work out and they move him to LT.  Herbig, who knows.  We'll see what they do this offseason if they draft anyone else.  There's also Driscoll in the mix.  

It would be nice to get these young guys more playing time this year during a rebuild to figure out if they are the answer or not and get them experience. Instead they're going to play Brooks and Johnson -aging veterans coming off injury. 

You have to sell these veterans on a rebuild and potentially another losing season.  And maybe by the time the team is ready to compete again, they'll be cut as cap casualties so the young guys can step in.  

Wouldn't it have been better to not give huge contracts to veterans when your seasons are trending downward?

same with trading Ertz, should've traded him last year to get highest value.

[hputenis]

15 minutes ago, NOTW said:

F Twitter.

I don't understand the cap that well, I've been trying to learn also.  We are noting this year that Carson has a $34 million cap hit, Lane's is $39 this year and $21 next year (it changes before and after June 1st and the website you can change the drop down to what it would look like to be cut vs traded).

So Lane's not going anywhere for at least 2 years, Brooks 1 more year.  

Good thing they have backups.  Mailata and Herbig both have 1 more year under contract.  Mailata, they'll have to pay him starter money to keep him but Lane will still be there also.  Unless Dillard doesn't work out and they move him to LT.  Herbig, who knows.  We'll see what they do this offseason if they draft anyone else.  There's also Driscoll in the mix.  

It would be nice to get these young guys more playing time this year during a rebuild to figure out if they are the answer or not and get them experience. Instead they're going to play Brooks and Johnson -aging veterans coming off injury. 

You have to sell these veterans on a rebuild and potentially another losing season.  And maybe by the time the team is ready to compete again, they'll be cut as cap casualties so the young guys can step in.  

Wouldn't it have been better to not give huge contracts to veterans when you're seasons are trending downward?

same with trading Ertz, should've traded him last year to get highest value.

Totally agree, and I didn't even think about Mailata getting paid.  I still look at Mailata as a rookie, but here we are with a total freak of nature on our hands, developed by Jeff Stoutland, and his ceiling is Jason Peters.  He already took the first step last year and proved he is a serviceable starter with less than acceptable technique because of his absolute freak athleticism.  

I know I should embrace this youth movement, but I always convince myself we are within striking distance thanks to the salary cap.  But I'm not in denial.  This team is devoid of talent at almost every single position.  Then I look at the advantage we have with Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson on the right, and it's almost unfair if they are healthy, and I think we can beat the Foreskins, Cowboys, and Giants with a coach that understands how to fart without it being a shart.  Then again, I remained optimistic about Desean Jackson this season as well.  

I have also wanted to trade Ertz for awhile.  And as far as the last bolded word sir:

 

[NOTW]

51 minutes ago, hputenis said:

Totally agree, and I didn't even think about Mailata getting paid.  I still look at Mailata as a rookie, but here we are with a total freak of nature on our hands, developed by Jeff Stoutland, and his ceiling is Jason Peters.  He already took the first step last year and proved he is a serviceable starter with less than acceptable technique because of his absolute freak athleticism.  

I know I should embrace this youth movement, but I always convince myself we are within striking distance thanks to the salary cap.  But I'm not in denial.  This team is devoid of talent at almost every single position.  Then I look at the advantage we have with Brandon Brooks and Lane Johnson on the right, and it's almost unfair if they are healthy, and I think we can beat the Foreskins, Cowboys, and Giants with a coach that understands how to fart without it being a shart.  Then again, I remained optimistic about Desean Jackson this season as well.  

I have also wanted to trade Ertz for awhile.  And as far as the last bolded word sir:

 

Thanks I fixed the error.

Yeah Mailata may not demand that much money since he's still developing.  But you still have a potential log jam (a good problem to have in a way) at Tackle with 3 starters.  But then the guards apart from Brooks aren't very good.  God help us if Kelce retires and says screw this rebuild I'm out of here.

You are right that NFL teams can turn things around pretty fast.  Doug won a SB in 2 years.

And right now, they have Johnson and Brooks under contract so of course you play them.  If they get hurt again then you evaluate the young guys.  I'm just looking back with hindsight and the contracts given.  I agree with extending them, just not for that long.  

[EagleVA]

On 2/10/2021 at 10:59 AM, Vman1968 said:

Howie couldn't haven screwed this up anymore if he was actually trying to make this team suck.  Yet is accountable for nothing.   Lurie is an idiot for letting this happen.   Its totally clear that he has no idea how to run a football team.  "

Howie is setting out to make you a liar by screwing up the Wentz trade.

The dumb sheet is hoping to find a GM as dumb as he is, there's will be no Sam Bradford luck coming this time around, there's film on Wentz.  

As for Lurie, he's saying screw the team, screw the fans, my loyalty is to Howie and Howie only.

 

[Vman1968]

20 hours ago, hputenis said:

Brooks has had 3 significant injuries in his last 3 years of play, 2 of them being achilles.  Lane is breaking down by the day, and his ankle was completely shattered (yet he still played on it).  While I love these 2 dudes as Eagles for life, it would be smart for this team to plan for their replacements immediately, even though it will never replicate their production on the field.  I'd argue that those 2 healthy in their prime are the best right side I've ever witnessed anywhere.  Then add Kelce and it's borderline legendary.  

This is what a good GM does.   He uses the draft to build depth and eventually replace current starters.   I don't remember who was available but when the eagles drafted Hurts, they could had a really good RT or RG to play behind those guys and we'd be in a better position to move on from them now.  All that being said, they tried that on the left side and took a project in the 7th round for LT to replace peters which is fine.  Low risk high reward. but the very next year traded up to draft a LT with their first pick.   Did did the first year of Maialta show them he wasnt any good?   Turns out he actually is good and is actually better than Dillard at this point.   So now what do you do with that situation?   Dillard isn't gonna want to move inside - he'll make less money plus how much of a chance has he gotten?   Yet Maialta looked really good last year.  So another wasted first rounder(+plus since they traded up)   

My gut tells me Roseman knows something about Lurie or their is something to their relationship outside of football.   If Lurie is just blown away by what he has done as GM, then we are going to suck for a long long time.   

[hputenis]

1 hour ago, Vman1968 said:

This is what a good GM does.   He uses the draft to build depth and eventually replace current starters.   I don't remember who was available but when the eagles drafted Hurts, they could had a really good RT or RG to play behind those guys and we'd be in a better position to move on from them now.  All that being said, they tried that on the left side and took a project in the 7th round for LT to replace peters which is fine.  Low risk high reward. but the very next year traded up to draft a LT with their first pick.   Did did the first year of Maialta show them he wasnt any good?   Turns out he actually is good and is actually better than Dillard at this point.   So now what do you do with that situation?   Dillard isn't gonna want to move inside - he'll make less money plus how much of a chance has he gotten?   Yet Maialta looked really good last year.  So another wasted first rounder(+plus since they traded up)   

My gut tells me Roseman knows something about Lurie or their is something to their relationship outside of football.   If Lurie is just blown away by what he has done as GM, then we are going to suck for a long long time.   

Your points led me to a previous post of mine where it would be my worst nightmare if Howie drafts Sewell at 6.  I understand the rebuild, but if they use another 1st on an OL (after trading up for Dillard 2 years ago), I'm gonna lose it.  It would be such a Howie thing to do too.  

I agree that at this point, we have to say Mailata is better than Dillard.  I'm hoping that Dillard comes back to training camp 100% healthy, shows that crazy ballerina footwork he is capable of in pass protection, with added strength, and beats out Mailata for the starting LT spot making Mailata a way above average swing T.  And we draft a receiver at 6 please.  

[devpool]

They're lucky fans weren't able to attend this past season, and still might not be able to this season. Lurie can ignore the fans on social media all he wants, when he starts seeing empty seats and/or hearing "Fire Howie" at every game it's going to be harder to ignore.

[dawkins4prez]

2 hours ago, devpool said:

They're lucky fans weren't able to attend this past season, and still might not be able to this season. Lurie can ignore the fans on social media all he wants, when he starts seeing empty seats and/or hearing "Fire Howie" at every game it's going to be harder to ignore.

Knowing Philly fans there won't be empty seats.  But there will be plenty of booing and chanting.

[devpool]

2 hours ago, dawkins4prez said:

Knowing Philly fans there won't be empty seats.  But there will be plenty of booing and chanting.

The seats will empty a bit if the team is bad going into winter. No one actually wants to watch a 3-12 team in sub freezing temperatures, season tickets holders will feel obligated or want to prove they're "true fans". You can be a true fan without forcing yourself to suffer in the freezing cold for 3+ hours but some people are too prideful 

[dawkins4prez]

19 minutes ago, devpool said:

The seats will empty a bit if the team is bad going into winter. No one actually wants to watch a 3-12 team in sub freezing temperatures, season tickets holders will feel obligated or want to prove they're "true fans". You can be a true fan without forcing yourself to suffer in the freezing cold for 3+ hours but some people are too prideful 

I dunno eagles fans are naturally hard core and 2 decades of pretty damn good football (NFC East Champs 9/20 years) has got the base pretty rabid.  I'd say it would take at least 5 straight years of losing for the linc to start looking empty.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, devpool said:

They're lucky fans weren't able to attend this past season, and still might not be able to this season. Lurie can ignore the fans on social media all he wants, when he starts seeing empty seats and/or hearing "Fire Howie" at every game it's going to be harder to ignore.

The only way to get Luries attention is the ticket holders, in mass have to stay in the parking lot during a nationally televised game.  
 

Problem is there is a lot of talk from fans, but would they answer such a call to action ?????? I say no.

[devpool]

36 minutes ago, dawkins4prez said:

I dunno eagles fans are naturally hard core and 2 decades of pretty damn good football (NFC East Champs 9/20 years) has got the base pretty rabid.  I'd say it would take at least 5 straight years of losing for the linc to start looking empty.

Idk I guess I'm different. Super bowl was 3 years ago and they have looked worse with each passing year, why wait for another 5 years of mediocrity (which will come with Howie at the helm) when you can force change now? 

5 minutes ago, downundermike said:

The only way to get Luries attention is the ticket holders, in mass have to stay in the parking lot during a nationally televised game.  
 

Problem is there is a lot of talk from fans, but would they answer such a call to action ?????? I say no.

Yea we'll bish and moan all day but that's about it. Like dawk said above it'll probably take a longer time, even though it shouldn't. I think you're right that just one embarrassment is all it would take for lurie to drop Howie like a bad habit, but we'll never get it.

[ThinkGreen]

As long as the franchise continues to increase in value, nothing will change at that level.